RealGM Top 100 List #16

[An Unbiased Fan]

And fwiw, not that it matters, but Dirk has far more top 5 seasons than just 4.

A reasonable argument can be made he was top 5 every year from 2002 to 2011.

I personally have him top 5 in 2002, 2004-2008, and 2011. That's 7, and I have him sixth in 2003, 2009 and 2012.

That also shows how arbitrary it is to judge someone by top X seasons.

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I have to ask ardee, who did you have as the Top 5 in the seasons you listed.

[Texas Chuck]

Dirk played Malone to at least a draw in 01 yet that's Mailman's prime still but Dirk's doesnt start for 4 more years despite being an all-NBA player all those years?

His playmaking isnt found in his assists as has been detailed over and over in this project. You can ignore it I guess, but his effect on offenses doesnt go away just because you want it to.

And name the big better at creating his own shot. You say you doubt it. So give me some bigs you think are his superior. Its not Shaq, RuselllKareem, Dream, Duncan, KG. either Malone, Admiral. Barkley is probably the closest I guess. You claim thats important for the top 16 and he's the best of the guys in or the primary guys considered for this spot.

Its odd that you hold Dirk alone to this standard. I acknowledge he's not a great defender, but I can't believe in 2014 that anyone still really thinks Dirk only contributes by scoring. You got mad when people suggested that about Kobe. Well Dirk is much the same. They are known primarily as scorers but capable of so much more.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Okay so you aren't to be taken seriously. Dirk played Malone to at least a draw in 01 yet that's Mailman's prime still but Dirk's doesnt start for 4 more years despite being an all-NBA player all those years?

I have no idea what you're even trying to say here.

[Texas Chuck]

Okay so you aren't to be taken seriously. Dirk played Malone to at least a draw in 01 yet that's Mailman's prime still but Dirk's doesnt start for 4 more years despite being an all-NBA player all those years?

I have no idea what you're even trying to say here.

You claim Dirk's prime starts in 05. In 01,02,03 and 04 he was an all-NBA player. Pretty impressive "non-prime". And they met in the playoffs in 01 and Mailman didn't outplay Dirk by any means.

What's hard to understand?

[BmanInBigD]

Okay so you aren't to be taken seriously. Dirk played Malone to at least a draw in 01 yet that's Mailman's prime still but Dirk's doesnt start for 4 more years despite being an all-NBA player all those years?

I have no idea what you're even trying to say here.

He's calling you out for earlier saying you were just using Dirk from 05-11 for these comparison purposes and that Karl has a huge longevity advantage because of that.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Okay so you aren't to be taken seriously. Dirk played Malone to at least a draw in 01 yet that's Mailman's prime still but Dirk's doesnt start for 4 more years despite being an all-NBA player all those years?

I have no idea what you're even trying to say here.

You claim Dirk's prime starts in 05. In 01,02,03 and 04 he was an all-NBA player. Pretty impressive "non-prime". And they met in the playoffs in 01 and Mailman didn't outplay Dirk by any means.

What's hard to understand?

I said the version of Dirk being used in comparisons existed pretty much from 05-11. Pre-2005, Dirk was not good defensively, nor did he go in the post much offensively. His impact was much less, imo.

Malone however, had consistent elite impact from 87-01. That's what I was getting at. I feel the same way about Stockton & Nash in many ways, because Nash didn't become ATG level until around 2005.

[Clyde Frazier]

Wow, a 3 way runoff! I was traveling this weekend and didn't have a chance to vote. Does anyone have a current count?


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[SactoKingsFan]

Wow, a 3 way runoff! I was traveling this weekend and didn't have a chance to vote. Does anyone have a current count?

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Don't have the count but Moses is a distant third in the run-off.

[ardee]

And fwiw, not that it matters, but Dirk has far more top 5 seasons than just 4.

A reasonable argument can be made he was top 5 every year from 2002 to 2011.

I personally have him top 5 in 2002, 2004-2008, and 2011. That's 7, and I have him sixth in 2003, 2009 and 2012.

That also shows how arbitrary it is to judge someone by top X seasons.

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I have to ask ardee, who did you have as the Top 5 in the seasons you listed.

2002: Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, KG, Dirk
2004: KG, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Dirk
2005: Nash, Dirk, Duncan, KG, Wade
2006: Kobe, Dirk, Wade, LeBron, Nash
2007: Kobe, Duncan, Nash, Dirk, LeBron
2008: Kobe, Paul, LeBron, KG, Dirk
2011: Dirk, LeBron, Wade, Dwight, Rose

And for kicks, the years I had him 6th:

2003: Duncan, KG, Kobe, T-Mac, Shaq, Dirk
2009: LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Paul, Dwight, Dirk
2012: LeBron, KD, Paul, Kobe, KG, Dirk

Are any of those really unreasonable?

[ThaRegul8r]

Dirk - Big issues with his prime longevity. Yes, he's played many seasons, but he's only been Top 5 in about 4 of them. That's a problem. Offensively, he's a great shooter, who relies on assisted FGs,

Interesting that you cite assisted FG's as a negative for Dirk yet Mailman is assisted on a TON MORE of his and you voted for him.... He's a big. He's going to be assisted on a number of his FGs because he's not the primary ballhandler. He's actually one of the best, if not the very best big of all-time in creating his own shot. I can't believe anyone sees this as a negative for Dirk.

David Halberstam on Malone:

Both Jordan and Malone were admirable, old-fashioned players, and both had the ability to carry their teams night after night. But there was one major difference between them. Jordan’s ability to create shots for himself and thereby take over at the end of big games when the defensive pressure on both sides escalated significantly was dramatically greater than Malone’s. Malone had become a great NBA player, improving year by year not only as a shooter but as someone who could pass out of the double-team, but he was very much dependent on teammates such as Stockton to create opportunities for him. He was big, he was strong, but he was not explosive. Thus, when the Bulls slowed down Stockton, they also limited or isolated Malone. What Jordan and the Chicago coaches believed was that they could limit Karl Malone in the fourth quarter of tight games in a way that Utah could never limit Michael Jordan.

Considering this is what was said of Malone, it is odd that a Malone supporter would say this. To me, it isn't helping the case when this can be found amongst the qualitative evidence.

[An Unbiased Fan]

And fwiw, not that it matters, but Dirk has far more top 5 seasons than just 4.

A reasonable argument can be made he was top 5 every year from 2002 to 2011.

I personally have him top 5 in 2002, 2004-2008, and 2011. That's 7, and I have him sixth in 2003, 2009 and 2012.

That also shows how arbitrary it is to judge someone by top X seasons.

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I have to ask ardee, who did you have as the Top 5 in the seasons you listed.

2002: Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, KG, Dirk
2004: KG, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Dirk
2005: Nash, Dirk, Duncan, KG, Wade
2006: Kobe, Dirk, Wade, LeBron, Nash
2007: Kobe, Duncan, Nash, Dirk, LeBron
2008: Kobe, Paul, LeBron, KG, Dirk
2011: Dirk, LeBron, Wade, Dwight, Rose

Are any of those really unreasonable?

I think in 2002/2004, both Tmac & Kidd were a bit better. Peja in 04 is also in the conversation.

Totally agree about 05-07 and 2011. But in 2008, I got Nash, Dwight higher.

Dirk is a great player, but he doesn't have the overall career depth as the guys being mentioned. He's one of the greats of THIS era(though not Top 5), but on an ATG scale, he falls a bit short of #16. Had he came in the NBA playing defense and posting up, then this would be a different story, but he didn't.

[An Unbiased Fan]

David Halberstam on Malone:

Both Jordan and Malone were admirable, old-fashioned players, and both had the ability to carry their teams night after night. But there was one major difference between them. Jordan’s ability to create shots for himself and thereby take over at the end of big games when the defensive pressure on both sides escalated significantly was dramatically greater than Malone’s. Malone had become a great NBA player, improving year by year not only as a shooter but as someone who could pass out of the double-team, but he was very much dependent on teammates such as Stockton to create opportunities for him. He was big, he was strong, but he was not explosive. Thus, when the Bulls slowed down Stockton, they also limited or isolated Malone. What Jordan and the Chicago coaches believed was that they could limit Karl Malone in the fourth quarter of tight games in a way that Utah could never limit Michael Jordan.

Considering this is what was said of Malone, it is odd that a Malone supporter would say this. To me, it isn't helping the case when this can be found amongst the qualitative evidence.

Not strange when I said Malone is in the same boat in that regard. I went on to say that Malone's defense + longevity give him the edge. Dirk's whole argument is is scoring.

And please never call me a "Malone supporter" again.

[D Nice]

Normally don't make posts from my phone but T-Mac was very clearly better than Dirk in 2002, JO was was better in 2003, and Peja/JO/Dirk are all a tossup in 2004. Ben is there too.

Dirk was very clearly a solid defender from 01 onward, he didn't become a much better defender in 2005 out of nowhere he just, for the first time in his career, was given competent defensive teammates. I watched a few of the Mavs 2001 playoff games this week and his rotations were tremendous, better than even I remembered.

Citing past mistaken assumptions (which, to be honest, was Euro-bias) is not actual evidence.

[ThaRegul8r]

David Halberstam on Malone:

Both Jordan and Malone were admirable, old-fashioned players, and both had the ability to carry their teams night after night. But there was one major difference between them. Jordan’s ability to create shots for himself and thereby take over at the end of big games when the defensive pressure on both sides escalated significantly was dramatically greater than Malone’s. Malone had become a great NBA player, improving year by year not only as a shooter but as someone who could pass out of the double-team, but he was very much dependent on teammates such as Stockton to create opportunities for him. He was big, he was strong, but he was not explosive. Thus, when the Bulls slowed down Stockton, they also limited or isolated Malone. What Jordan and the Chicago coaches believed was that they could limit Karl Malone in the fourth quarter of tight games in a way that Utah could never limit Michael Jordan.

Considering this is what was said of Malone, it is odd that a Malone supporter would say this. To me, it isn't helping the case when this can be found amongst the qualitative evidence.

Not strange when I said Malone is in the same boat in that regard. I went on to say that Malone's defense + longevity give him the edge. Dirk's whole argument is is scoring.

And please never call me a "Malone supporter" again.

lol...my apologies

[FJS]

Talking about competition:

Karl Malone played in an era when Jordan, Duncan, Shaq, Magic, Bird, Olajuwon, Garnett and Bryant were in their primes (some entering, some finishing and other lived their whole prime) in his career. All are selected in the top 15.
He played still vs KAJ and Dr J in their finish years, when Jabbar still was winning rings.
Plus he played vs Moses Malone, David Robinson (prime), Charles Barkley (prime), Patrick Ewing (prime) and so many top 30 players.

Dirk has played with Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Bryant and Lebron for this top 15 in their primes.

Still he managed to be a top 5 in 9 years, being Dirk in 3.
Not to talk about 1st all nba team. 11 the Mailman vs 4th Dirk.

[HeatRing2012]

if it's a tie between Malone and Dirk, you always have to go with the guy who is the better playoff performer, as this is usually the kicker.

hence: vote Dirk Nowitzki

[BmanInBigD]

Not to talk about 1st all nba team. 11 the Mailman vs 4th Dirk.

No, let's DO talk about it. Karl had to compete against NO ONE as good as or better than him for All-NBA. Barkley and a broken-in-half Bird. Meanwhile, Dirk's going up against prime Duncan, Garnett, LeBron, and lately Durant for All-NBA, ALL players in or above his class. You CANNOT compare accolades across eras and positions and be equitable. This argument makes me crazy!

[FJS]

Not to talk about 1st all nba team. 11 the Mailman vs 4th Dirk.

No, let's DO talk about it. Karl had to compete against NO ONE as good as or better than him for All-NBA. Barkley and a broken-in-half Bird. Meanwhile, Dirk's going up against prime Duncan, Garnett, LeBron, and lately Durant for All-NBA, ALL players in or above his class. You CANNOT compare accolades across eras and positions and be equitable. This argument makes me crazy!

Barkley couldn't do 11 times... so there's other pf/sf who pass him... but not mailman.

[magicmerl]

Ok, dropping Moses from the runoff since more than half of his supporters have defected. The current tally (through Post 237)

13 Karl Malone – ronnymac2, trex_8063, DHodgkins, FJS, SactoKingsFan, magicmerl, therealbig3, colts18, batmana, basketballefan, shutupandjam, DQuinn1575, An Unbiased Fan
13 Dirk – Quotatious, ardee, fpliii, penbeast0, john248, RayBan-Sematra, Doctor MJ, Chuck Texas, Narigo, Moonbeam, rich316, RSCD3_, ShaqAttack3234

(I'm a little unclear who ShaqAttack voted for, nothing was bolded. guessing it's for Dirk)

[Basketballefan]

Dirk played Malone to at least a draw in 01 yet that's Mailman's prime still but Dirk's doesnt start for 4 more years despite being an all-NBA player all those years?

His playmaking isnt found in his assists as has been detailed over and over in this project. You can ignore it I guess, but his effect on offenses doesnt go away just because you want it to.

And name the big better at creating his own shot. You say you doubt it. So give me some bigs you think are his superior. Its not Shaq, RuselllKareem, Dream, Duncan, KG. either Malone, Admiral. Barkley is probably the closest I guess. You claim thats important for the top 16 and he's the best of the guys in or the primary guys considered for this spot.

Its odd that you hold Dirk alone to this standard. I acknowledge he's not a great defender, but I can't believe in 2014 that anyone still really thinks Dirk only contributes by scoring. You got mad when people suggested that about Kobe. Well Dirk is much the same. They are known primarily as scorers but capable of so much more.

There's no way Karl was still in his prime in 2001, thats a little ridiculous to say.