RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)

[trex_8063]

"Did I miss the battle?" YIKES. I SO wanted to be involved in this from the get-go (and said so some months ago; and have posted a number of times on what I think should be the general criteria); yet somehow I seem to have slept thru the first 5 votes. YIKES.

Anyway, I'd like to be included.
N.B. I outrank (lol) almost everybody because I started watching hard (well as hard as was available in NYC-area TV plus reports in sports columns and mags) from the 1959-60 season onwards. I also got to watch a number of times LIVE this amazing PG for the Harlem Globetrotters, the season before; what was his name? Oh yeah, Wilt. lol

P.S. I've just read this thread from beginning to end - but with this "old man's fading memory"; I wouldn't mind somebody telling me what I'm supposed to do next? Post in a criteria thread? etc. Thanx

Wish I could be active this time around. I liked being a part of the 2013 list.

I've been absent/off the grid the last three days, so sorry for the delay. I'll add you both to the eligible voter panel.

[Pablo Novi]

"Did I miss the battle?" YIKES. I SO wanted to be involved in this from the get-go (and said so some months ago; and have posted a number of times on what I think should be the general criteria); yet somehow I seem to have slept thru the first 5 votes. YIKES.

Anyway, I'd like to be included.
N.B. I outrank (lol) almost everybody because I started watching hard (well as hard as was available in NYC-area TV plus reports in sports columns and mags) from the 1959-60 season onwards. I also got to watch a number of times LIVE this amazing PG for the Harlem Globetrotters, the season before; what was his name? Oh yeah, Wilt. lol

P.S. I've just read this thread from beginning to end - but with this "old man's fading memory"; I wouldn't mind somebody telling me what I'm supposed to do next? Post in a criteria thread? etc. Thanx

Wish I could be active this time around. I liked being a part of the 2013 list.

I've been absent/off the grid the last three days, so sorry for the delay. I'll add you both to the eligible voter panel.

Muchas gracias, Thanx.

[eminence]

So which new young guys do people think will make appearances on the list for the first time?

Curry/Westbrook/Harden seem like the obvious 3. Could someone like Marc Gasol have worked his way onto the back of the list? Do Kawhi/Davis sneak in even with no longevity to speak of?

[THKNKG]

So which new young guys do people think will make appearances on the list for the first time?

Curry/Westbrook/Harden seem like the obvious 3. Could someone like Marc Gasol have worked his way onto the back of the list? Do Kawhi/Davis sneak in even with no longevity to speak of?

Kawhi/Davis/Dray could all sneak in at the very bottom, I think. Marc or even someone like Conley could potentially be there, or maybe someone like Blake. There are a few possibilities I think.

[trex_8063]

So which new young guys do people think will make appearances on the list for the first time?

Curry/Westbrook/Harden seem like the obvious 3. Could someone like Marc Gasol have worked his way onto the back of the list? Do Kawhi/Davis sneak in even with no longevity to speak of?

Kawhi/Davis/Dray could all sneak in at the very bottom, I think. Marc or even someone like Conley could potentially be there, or maybe someone like Blake. There are a few possibilities I think.

Curry/Westbrook/Harden all make it quite easily, imo.

I think Kawhi probably slips in (somewhere around 80-ish, perhaps?). I don't think Davis gets in (longevity lacking even compared to Kawhi, almost no playoff resume to speak of, and less accolades and such to show for his career, fwiw).

I don't think Draymond is even close yet, tbh. Somewhat polarized opinions about him (as usual, I tend to float somewhere in the middle-ground), only five seasons under his belt (two of which he was a limited-minute bench player, career avg of 26.8 mpg). That's not near enough career value yet, as far as I'm concerned; he's not remotely close to the top 100 for me.


EDIT: Guys like Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, and LaMarcus Aldridge are much closer than Green (probably closer than AD for me, too). For me, LMA in particular is getting awfully close to fringe top 100 status. If he does crack my top 100 at some point, it'll likely be just barely, and he probably wouldn't be there for very long (would only take a handful of newcomers to push him back out).

[Outside]

I have Curry fairly high at the moment (37), but I figure he's a candidate to move down because of longevity to date.

I have Dwight Howard at 89 and Westbrook at 91. Those positions are quite fluid for me.

I don't have Harden on the list. I'm not convinced he's done what it takes to merit being included. He's been a good offensive player, but his defense is beyond atrocious, and he has some black marks on his resume, including the Rockets' massive underperformance last year, generally poor performance in the playoffs, poor performance in the 2012 finals in particular, and the no-show in game 6 against the Spurs this year. Russ shows up and gives you max effort, but Harden can be an enigma.

[eminence]

So which new young guys do people think will make appearances on the list for the first time?

Curry/Westbrook/Harden seem like the obvious 3. Could someone like Marc Gasol have worked his way onto the back of the list? Do Kawhi/Davis sneak in even with no longevity to speak of?

Kawhi/Davis/Dray could all sneak in at the very bottom, I think. Marc or even someone like Conley could potentially be there, or maybe someone like Blake. There are a few possibilities I think.

Curry/Westbrook/Harden all make it quite easily, imo.

I think Kawhi probably slips in (somewhere around 80-ish, perhaps?). I don't think Davis gets in (longevity lacking even compared to Kawhi, almost no playoff resume to speak of, and less accolades and such to show for his career, fwiw).

I don't think Draymond is even close yet, tbh. Somewhat polarized opinions about him (as usual, I tend to float somewhere in the middle-ground), only five seasons under his belt (two of which he was a limited-minute bench player, career avg of 26.8 mpg). That's not near enough career value yet, as far as I'm concerned; he's not remotely close to the top 100 for me.


EDIT: Guys like Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, and LaMarcus Aldridge are much closer than Green (probably closer than AD for me, too). For me, LMA in particular is getting awfully close to fringe top 100 status. If he does crack my top 100 at some point, it'll likely be just barely, and he probably wouldn't be there for very long (would only take a handful of newcomers to push him back out).

Yeah, looking at the recent guys a bit more I think I'm in agreement, Kawhi looks like the most recent guy who'll be able to get in for me. I have Davis/Green at pretty similar career value right now (maybe a tiny edge Davis?), but I don't think either get past the mythical 'Walton line'.

Some of those late prime guys I'm not sure on yet, but I imagine they'll all be close.

Edit: On Aldridge I don't think he's quite there for me, and I'd probably put Millsap above him from that draft class.

[wojoaderge]

Right now I have Curry in the 20s

[ardee]

I just realized... where is Quotatious?

Sent from my SM-J700F using RealGM mobile app

[Jaivl]

Aldridge is getting in my top 100, for sure. IDK about Harden or Leonard yet. Westbrook may get in.

I just realized... where is Quotatious?

Sent from my SM-J700F using RealGM mobile app

Read the OT thread, a few pages back, I think he had personal stuff to deal with.

[SactoKingsFan]

Aldridge is getting in my top 100, for sure. IDK about Harden or Leonard yet. Westbrook may get in.

I just realized... where is Quotatious?

Sent from my SM-J700F using RealGM mobile app

Read the OT thread, a few pages back, I think he had personal stuff to deal with.

I'd have Aldridge more borderline for top 100. Do you have Divac in top 100? Most wouldn't but I think he has a good case.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Jaivl]

I'd guess yes.

[penbeast0]

The bottom three from the last list (and there are the likes of Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant, etc.added since) were:

Joe Dumars
Gus Williams
Marques Johnson

Is Aldridge superior to those three? I can't see it so no, I think it's a long shot that he makes the top 100.

[Doctor MJ]

So which new young guys do people think will make appearances on the list for the first time?

Curry/Westbrook/Harden seem like the obvious 3. Could someone like Marc Gasol have worked his way onto the back of the list? Do Kawhi/Davis sneak in even with no longevity to speak of?

Curry, Westbrook, and Harden definitely. I think Kawhi probably makes it too. I think Draymond gets serious discussion but might get kept out.

As I look down the list, guys from 2005 and earlier largely are what they are in the eyes of most and are unlikely to get new consideration. Not impossible, but it will probably require a very effective champion.

Looking then at guys from 2006 on with a case:

2006 - Paul Millsap. At this point he's clearly the #1 guy from that draft. He's been valuable from Day 1 and has been valuable in whatever role needed all the way up to #1 scoring option and defensive anchor.

2007 - Marc Gasol. I think he's the top prospect from the 2007 draft likely to make it. He could make it, but he doesn't have quite the momentum he had a few years back.

2008 - Kevin Love. Since Russ is in, Love is next from the 2008 draft. I feel like he'll get left out but something could happen in the future that makes him be seen as a guy flirting with top 60 or so status.

2009 - Blake Griffin. (Steph & Beard in) I think that a year from now he could be an easy, easy choice, but as things stand now he really hasn't done that much. I mean seriously, it's entirely possible that the Clippers' playoff record would be the same if Griffin hadn't been there for years. But I could see him next year being a top MVP contender playing like west coast LeBron.

2010 - Paul George. I think he's a definite no. Like Griffin but worse because he just demanded a trade from a small-market team that had actually done better than he deserved. I was tempted to list Wall here instead of George, but I can't justify that because Wall's accomplishments just don't match George's.

2011 - Kyrie Irving. I doubt I vote for him, but I won't be surprised if he makes it. His finals performances are iconic and his skills are legendary.

2012 - Draymond Green. What he's done as point forward, DPOY, emotional leader of a champion, and recruiter of Durant is to me HOF worthy. I'll probably vote for him at some point, I don't know if others will. Interesting that I'm talking about Green before Anthony Davis. People may remember I went in HARD on the Davis bandwagon and I don't really want to get off of it, but what Green has done in the pros is more special to me.

[Doctor MJ]

The bottom three from the last list (and there are the likes of Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant, etc.added since) were:

Joe Dumars
Gus Williams
Marques Johnson

Is Aldridge superior to those three? I can't see it so no, I think it's a long shot that he makes the top 100.

I wouldn't rate him above those guys.

To me Aldridge is a disgruntled afterthought whose team got good at just the right time to make him seem more special than he was. He's a good player, but I don't see his career as really being noteworthy.

[Pablo Novi]

Hello guys, do you think that the real gm top 100 project is the most serious and well tought and therefore the most "Important" list you can find?

well Laimbeer will start his usual threads soon telling us how we got it all wrong and that the collective wisdom of the group isn't nearly as strong as it is perceived....

But generally speaking lists compiled by groups should be stronger than lists compiled by any one individual and considering some of the basketball geniuses participating I feel like its a list the site and the PC Board should rightly be proud of.

In the past, about 3 years ago, for a year, I has a heavy participant in Pro-Sports Daily NBA GOAT list threads. At the time, I wasn't aware of any other sports discussion websites; so, inevitably I thought the results were pretty good. Otoh, the level of flame-warring was just atrocious. Nasty enough to require serious commitment to even hang in there thru the discussions - to benefit from and respond to the minority of high-quality posts.

Once I became aware of RealGM, both to the seemingly much-more knowledgeable general poster-base; and specifically, to the clear high-quality of most of the serious GOAT voters - I feel like there's no comparison, RealGM's GOAT DISCUSSIONS have been incredibly superior; and the resulting GOAT lists reflect that.

In other words, despite a few serious disagreements I have with our developing GOAT list; I feel proud and HONORED to be a (small) part of this RealGM effort.

[Pablo Novi]

Hello guys, do you think that the real gm top 100 project is the most serious and well tought and therefore the most "Important" list you can find?

I respond to this in my just posted post.

[ardee]

The bottom three from the last list (and there are the likes of Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant, etc.added since) were:

Joe Dumars
Gus Williams
Marques Johnson

Is Aldridge superior to those three? I can't see it so no, I think it's a long shot that he makes the top 100.

I am pretty surprised Marques dropped that low.

[ardee]

Sorry I haven't been posting, currently traveling and on my phone. Will try and get back into it next thread

Sent from my SM-J700F using RealGM mobile app

[Lou Fan]

Well the time is upon us to do another Top 100 of All-Time project. PLEASE READ ALL OF THIS OP TO BE FAMILIAR WITH THE PROCESS AND GUIDELINES

Links to prior lists:
Doctor MJ's spreadsheet with information back to 2006 and some 2003
RealGM Top 100 List 2008
RealGM Top 100 List 2011
Poster Pre-Lists from before 2014 project
RealGM Top 100 List 2014
Poster Pre-Lists from before 2017 project


2017 List
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Lebron James
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Karl Malone
15. Jerry West

Anyone and everyone is free to participate in the discussion during the course of this project. However, the voter pool will be pre-approved by a panel of moderators. Tenured posters in good standing will be allowed into the voter pool immediately.
Newer/less-known posters or posters with questionable records may be asked to participate in the discussion WITHOUT being allowed a counted vote for a few threads, to demonstrate capable knowledge, genuine intent, and ability to converse in a respectful manner. If they pass this “trial period”, they will then be made eligible voters.

Pending details of user record and history, the “trial period” may be longer and more arduous for some than it is for others.

But here’s the important part: YOU MUST STATE YOUR DESIRE TO VOTE IN THE PROJECT IN THIS THREAD (though this is not required to participate in the project discussion).


This top 100 list is to comprise the greatest in all of BAA/NBA/ABA history (EDIT: where Mikan is concerned, you may also consider NBL as far back as '47). I am not going to stipulate a specific criteria that we all must follow. Everyone is free to be guided by their own values as to their ranking. However, the one thing I do ask [given this is to be an ALL-TIME list] is that you consider ALL players from all eras of BAA/NBA/ABA history.

I know there are a few individuals who only rank players post-merger or some other relatively arbitrary cut-off. For the purposes of this project, that is simply inadequate. I ask that you familiarize yourself [to the best of your ability] with players from all eras (going back as far as the BAA), and from the ABA as well, so that you can make educated speculations on the appropriate rank of players in an “all-time” sense.

If you do not feel up to that task, I would ask that you be up front about this and refrain from voting in the project (though please still participate in the discussion).


Given we are not forcing a specific set of criteria on posters, please be aware as we move thru this project that the criteria of other posters will often differ from your own. As such, there isn’t always a “right and wrong” in much of this…...just differing value systems. Please hold that in mind and be respectful to one and other.

If you’re going to participate, I would like it if you would take a little time [if you haven’t already done so] to outline your criteria in this thread:

Official Criteria Thread

That way, anyone you are debating with/against can at least get an idea of where you’re coming from.


The project is likely to start at the end of June and will take ~8 months to finish. It’s a long process, and I hope those participating stick with it to the end (imo, it’s a lot of the later positions that get interesting, as there’s so much less separating each individual place once we’re past ~#50).
While the resulting list is always a big curiosity for me, too, it’s the discussion that I hope we can make vibrant, textured, and useful for future reference.

EDIT: For voting procedure, we're going to experiment with something new, a Ranked Choice Vote (RCV). The procedure is pretty simple: basically you'd state who your top pick is (with supporting arguments), then also stipulate who your second pick would be (you will not be required to do a write-up or provide arguments for your secondary pick, though other posters may ask you your reasoning)). If no single player has the majority (>50%) of first place votes, then the player with the LEAST number of first place votes is eliminated.....and every voter who voted for that eliminated player has their second choice votes added to the total (the first place total) of the surviving candidates. If that doesn't result in somebody having a majority, the player with the next least number of first place votes is eliminated, and again second choice votes are transferred. Lather, rinse, repeat until a majority is reached (or until only two candidates remain: whoever has the most between the two of them).

Here's the graphic that fpliii provided:

This is a somewhat experimental procedure relative to prior projects. Hopefully it goes well. However, if there are issues, we can go back to the same single-vote procedure from the 2014 project, which is as follows:
1) We vote for one position/rank at a time, starting at #1 and proceeding to #100.
2) Each eligible voter can cast their vote for ONE player. Votes MUST be accompanied by some arguments that demonstrate you have given serious consideration to your choice (i.e. something like “won six MVP’s” or “highest ppg of all-time” or similar is not adequate; your vote will not be counted if adequate justification is not provided).
3) You may change your vote if you feel compelled to do so. If you do wish to change your vote, please edit your original vote post and otherwise just give me a heads-up post that you’ve changed your vote.
4) The vote for each thread/position will be open for ~48 hours. At the end of that 48-hour period if one player has a majority of the total vote, that player will be awarded the rank being voted on. If no single player has a majority of the vote, we will enter a 24-hour run-off vote between the top 2 vote recipients (or rarely the top 3, in event of a tie). If your original vote was cast for one of the players in the run-off, you do NOT need to repeat your vote once we go into run-off (your original vote will simply be counted). i.e. only vote in the run-off if you original vote was NOT for one of the two run-off contestants (or if you wish to change your original vote).
5) We (the panel of moderators) will be watching closely for any evidence of collusion or “manipulation” of the vote. If we become suspicious an individual is participating in this manner, he or she may be removed from the voter panel, pending further investigation and/or trial period. EDIT: those guilty of any other general misbehavior may also be removed from the voter panel.


I think that’s about it. Again, if you want to vote, please make your request here. Any questions, concerns, etc you may have, now is the time to ask as well.

Voter Panel
trex_8063
eminence
Colbinii
Clyde Frazier
Quotatious

PaulieWal
Texas Chuck
drza
Dr Spaceman
fpliii

Hornet Mania
Eddy_JukeZ
SactoKingsFan
Blackmill
JordansBulls

RSCD3_
BasketballFan7
micahclay
PockyCandy
ardee

RCM88x
Tesla
Joao Saraiva
LA Bird
MyUniBroDavis

kayess
2klegend
penbeast0
MisterHibachi
70sFan

mischievous
Doctor MJ
Dr Positivity
Jaivl
Bad Gatorade

colts18
andrewww
Moonbeam
Cyrusman122000
Winsome Gerbil

Narigo
wojoaderge
TrueLAfan
90sAllDecade
Outside

scabbarista
janmagn
lebron3-14-3
Arman_tanzarian
oldschooled

Pablo Novi
john248
mdonnelly1989
Senior

I would love to be a part of the voting committee and I made a real gm account just for this purpose. I have been following your rankings the whole time and reading all the arguments. I am looking forward to reading more arguments as well as sharing my own opinions. I operate under the premise that big man defense>perimeter defense and big man offense<perimeter offense. To me Peak>Prime>Longevity. I primarily look at how great were you at your best (peak) and how long were you a all-NBA level player. To be clear tho I do value longevity especially in cases like Karl Malone. I also believe that the competition in the NBA did not really ramp up until the late 1970s and because of that I dock greats like Russell and Chamberlain for playing in their eras. I evaluate players using every resource ie eye test, advanced stats and box score. I also believe that a lot of winning is circumstantial and I don't punish the likes of KG and Lebron for playing with horrendous supporting casts. I actually believe Lebron's greatest achievement was the 07 finals run. To give you an idea of how this all comes together for me I will give you what I believe to be the 25 greatest players of all time.
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabaar
3. Tim Duncan
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Bill Russell
6. Magic Johnson
7. Lebron James
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Kevin Garnett
10. Wilt Chamberlain
11. Larry Bird
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Kobe Bryant
14. Dirk Nowitzki
15. Jerry West
16. Karl Malone
17. Julius Erving
18. David Robinson
19. Charles Barkley
20. Moses Malone
21. Dwayne Wade
22. Steph Curry
23. Scottie Pippen
24. John Stockton
25. Chris Paul
I am very much open to changing my ranking based on the opinions of others. Thanks!