TK Smart wrote:Pelly24 wrote:TK Smart wrote:
Zach Lavine is definitely more athletic than Kobe. And it's really crazy that in these topics of elite freak athletes the guy who went windmill and between the legs from the free throw line is always left out.
I think Kobe was quicker and way better at changing directions, and some stats speak to this. Kobe got to the line for an average of 9.5 free throw attempts per game between 2004 and 2008 on average, peaking at over 10 attempts per game. Lavine's gotten to the line for 5.6 attempts per game. And mind you, Kobe was doing this during a more difficult defensive era with big men being stationed near the rim more regularly. Kobe's attempts would likely have gotten up to 11 or 12 with the rules that were in place up until this year, and even this year, he'd still get a bunch of free throw attempts. Zach obviously gets far less free throw attempts. Zach is not nearly the slasher Kobe was. Part of that is due to handle, but he also lacks the lateral quickness and ability to change directions that Kobe had. It's more than dunks, and even then, Kobe's in-game dunks are much more impressive on average than Lavine's. Kobe dunked on Dwight Howard, Yao Ming and Tim Duncan. He'd take off on the baseline and just do a crazy reverse double pump dunk with no problem. Sure he couldn't take off from the free throw line and windmill like Lavine, but Lavine can't stay in front of people on defense like Kobe. Kobe was so quick and shifty and balanced that he could literally stay in front of the fastest players in the league at all times if he wanted to. He was one of the best defenders in the league. Zach has usually been one of the worst. I think some of that I Kobe's athletic advantage.
In all, Kobe has far superior lateral quickness whether playing on defense or driving to the rim. Kobe was stronger. Kobe had better reflexes. Kobe was a better athlete than Lavine. If Lavine hadn't been in the dunk contest, no one would consider him to be one of the best athletes of all time. He's not close to as athletic as Michael Jordan was, just watching film.
So here's Zach's combine numbers https://www.nba.com/celtics/draft/profile-lavine
Those lane agility and shuttle run numbers put him in the top 5 in both categories in just about every measured combine. Kobe was definitely a stronger person than Zach and could absorb contact much better, but Zach's change of direction and lateral quickness are elite by any measure, are there any numbers to back up your claims that Kobe blows him away? Because everything I see Zach do on the court looks smooth and effortless almost like Kobe's with a touch more quickness...he doesn't lack there at all in terms of pure athleticism. Most of what you mentioned here, to me, seems to be more of a reflection of Kobe's natural IQ/instincts and superior ballhandling ability (which to me is top 3 at his position), as opposed to raw athletic ability. Like the defense argument, I think if you put Kobe's basketball mind inside of Zach's body you'd get a better defender than what Kobe was. While yes Kobe's elite athleticism gave him the traits necessary to stay in front of people, you still need the IQ/effort/mindset to do it which is Zach's biggest knock.
Zach has great agility, but on the court it never looked as graceful, to me, as Kobe. Maybe they're equal in that area by combine measurements (Kobe didn't have them, and if he did, he was only 17 so years away from his athletic peak), but Kobe looked like a ballerina out there. It's not a knock on Zach. He's an elite athlete and he's definitely a fluid one. But Kobe is pretty much as fluid as any guard ever. I don't think Zach is quite on that level w. MJ and Kyrie and Kobe. He looks a little more like a forward than a guard, compared to those guys.
I'll say, Kobe's handle makes it a little hard to completely separate it. On defense though, I think Kobe just looks like he has better reflexes and depth perception, and even more flexibility. That's to me, though. As you say, the strength definitely goes to Kobe. It would help if Zach had Kobe's instincts for sure, but I don't think Zach had Kobe's reflexes. And then there's also Kobe's stamina, which was crazy back in the day.
All that said, Zach to me is probably a top 10 athlete in the league. I'd put Zion, Anthony Edwards, because of length—Giannis above him but that's all on a guaranteed basis. so maybe top 5 in a way.
