2022-23 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#221 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sat Jul 2, 2022 6:21 am

falcolombardi wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
jalengreen wrote:
was it really? he played 44 minutes per game so doesnt seem super likely but maybe im wrong


Off rtg was
113.4 on the court, 132.1 off the court, per NBA.com

I don’t think it’s indicative on Durant, but I do think the Celtics did great on him.


113.4 is around a +6 relative offensive rating against boston defense

Their offense vs bucks last year was 108 for example


You can’t compare on court off rtg to a teams off rtg like that though, and per nba.com I think they were more than a +6 offense with Kyrie and KD healthy and both on the court

Checked, the off rtg with them on the court together was 122.8 throughout the season, 113.4 vs the celtics
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#222 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sat Jul 2, 2022 6:29 am

On a broader note, not necessarily relevant here I do think the idea of “they played at a +3 level vs a -4 defense therefore they played at a +7 offense” is far too simple

In a playoff matchup there are strategic adjustments that sometimes work well and make great offenses poor, the mavs weren’t a +10 defense against the suns games 1 and 2 and a -9 defense games 3-7, nor were the warriors playing a -9 defense when they faced them

We too often think of playoff games as a random sample of 7 regular season games and they just are not, it’s a series of 4-7 games that tactically build upon each other
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#223 » by itsxtray » Sat Jul 2, 2022 7:06 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:On a broader note, not necessarily relevant here I do think the idea of “they played at a +3 level vs a -4 defense therefore they played at a +7 offense” is far too simple

In a playoff matchup there are strategic adjustments that sometimes work well and make great offenses poor, the mavs weren’t a +10 defense against the suns games 1 and 2 and a -9 defense games 3-7, nor were the warriors playing a -9 defense when they faced them

We too often think of playoff games as a random sample of 7 regular season games and they just are not, it’s a series of 4-7 games that tactically build upon each other

Yep, and styles make fights. Just because the Mavs were good against the suns doesn't mean they'll be good against the warriors and vice versa
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#224 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Jul 2, 2022 11:46 am

Celtics got Brogdon for nothing. Really good buy low deal.

Stevens is fitting real well in his new role.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#225 » by Statlanta » Sat Jul 2, 2022 1:18 pm

I didn't like the Brogdon trade, not that the Celtics gave up anything of significance but that they think it's a similar move to the Derrick White trade and I doubt it works out as well.

I am extremely low on Brogdon, thought he was one of the most overrated players when the GB kept saying Milwaukee will miss him.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#226 » by Prez » Sat Jul 2, 2022 1:30 pm

Statlanta wrote:I didn't like the Brogdon trade, not that the Celtics gave up anything of significance but that they think it's a similar move to the Derrick White trade and I doubt it works out as well.

I am extremely low on Brogdon, thought he was one of the most overrated players when the GB kept saying Milwaukee will miss him.

Not gonna pretend I watched a bunch of Indiana games but I think there were just some misconceptions about his game when he went to Indiana, which is why so many people thought Milwaukee would miss him a ton. I think the two biggest ones were that he was a great defensive guard, when in reality he was fine, a bit limited and vulnerable against quick guards, but with decent strength to switch between smaller 3s and not quick 2s. And then the playmaking part, for some reason there was this idea that he was a super high IQ player when in reality he actually displayed some tunnel vision, didn't get rid of the ball quick enough, and was a reluctant shooter unless completely wide open.

Funny enough I think I enjoyed his first couple seasons a lot more, before he fully established himself, I thought he meshed more easily around other talent. I literally changed my username because of him lol. He just started developing some annoying tendencies the larger his role became and the more he thought of his upside.

All that being said he is still a pretty good all around player and given what they gave up, it was a good pickup by Boston. I think he'll be in 6MOY contention if he stays healthy. But that's the other concern with him, he legitimately doesn't seem capable of holding up for a full season, especially a deep, physically taxing playoff run.

Gun to my head, Boston would be my title pick for 22-23.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#227 » by MartinToVaught » Sat Jul 2, 2022 2:04 pm

Statlanta wrote:I didn't like the Brogdon trade, not that the Celtics gave up anything of significance but that they think it's a similar move to the Derrick White trade and I doubt it works out as well.

I am extremely low on Brogdon, thought he was one of the most overrated players when the GB kept saying Milwaukee will miss him.

I don't hate Brogdon, but I do think the trade is a little overrated. Yes, the price for Boston was so cheap, it was a no-brainer for them... but there's also a reason why the price was so cheap. He's always injured and just okay when he does play. After thinking about it, I'm not convinced that this will end up moving the needle much either way for the Celtics.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#228 » by Homer38 » Sat Jul 2, 2022 2:11 pm

I read yesterday that Brogdon will be the 6th man for the celtics
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#229 » by Colbinii » Sat Jul 2, 2022 4:27 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:
Statlanta wrote:I didn't like the Brogdon trade, not that the Celtics gave up anything of significance but that they think it's a similar move to the Derrick White trade and I doubt it works out as well.

I am extremely low on Brogdon, thought he was one of the most overrated players when the GB kept saying Milwaukee will miss him.

I don't hate Brogdon, but I do think the trade is a little overrated. Yes, the price for Boston was so cheap, it was a no-brainer for them... but there's also a reason why the price was so cheap. He's always injured and just okay when he does play. After thinking about it, I'm not convinced that this will end up moving the needle much either way for the Celtics.


Lucky for the Celtics the needle doesn't need to move much for a team that lost in the Finals in 6 games.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#230 » by MartinToVaught » Sat Jul 2, 2022 4:31 pm

Colbinii wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:
Statlanta wrote:I didn't like the Brogdon trade, not that the Celtics gave up anything of significance but that they think it's a similar move to the Derrick White trade and I doubt it works out as well.

I am extremely low on Brogdon, thought he was one of the most overrated players when the GB kept saying Milwaukee will miss him.

I don't hate Brogdon, but I do think the trade is a little overrated. Yes, the price for Boston was so cheap, it was a no-brainer for them... but there's also a reason why the price was so cheap. He's always injured and just okay when he does play. After thinking about it, I'm not convinced that this will end up moving the needle much either way for the Celtics.


Lucky for the Celtics the needle doesn't need to move much for a team that lost in the Finals in 6 games.

IDK, I'm still not sure they get past the Bucks with a healthy Middleton. Or Miami if Riley pulls a big move out of his hat.

There's a possibility that this year's Celtics may have been last year's Suns, riding a wave of three consecutive injured (or just dysfunctional in the Nets' case) opponents, and maybe not being as fortunate next year.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#231 » by sp6r=underrated » Sat Jul 2, 2022 6:23 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:I don't hate Brogdon, but I do think the trade is a little overrated. Yes, the price for Boston was so cheap, it was a no-brainer for them... but there's also a reason why the price was so cheap. He's always injured and just okay when he does play. After thinking about it, I'm not convinced that this will end up moving the needle much either way for the Celtics.


Lucky for the Celtics the needle doesn't need to move much for a team that lost in the Finals in 6 games.

IDK, I'm still not sure they get past the Bucks with a healthy Middleton. Or Miami if Riley pulls a big move out of his hat.

There's a possibility that this year's Celtics may have been last year's Suns, riding a wave of three consecutive injured (or just dysfunctional in the Nets' case) opponents, and maybe not being as fortunate next year.


There's also a possibility you are overly dismissive of last year's Suns and are applying the same error to this year Celtics.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#232 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jul 2, 2022 6:30 pm

So it's going to be interesting to see what happens with the Warriors' depth next year.

They've retained their Top 6 players.
They still have their 3 Young Prospects.

Losing Porter, Payton, Bjelica, JTA, Lee.

Only other player on their roster from before is the retired-in-his-jersey Iguodala.

While it's certainly true that if the 3 young guys hit, a 9 man rotation is plenty for the playoffs, we are talking about a situation where the glue holding the bench together is gone, and they need their young guys on the bench to really learn how to play basketball now.

When the Warriors came out of the gate last season looking so good top to bottom I felt it was real proof that Kerr's scheme can work really well with middling talent so long as the players had the right basketball knowledge in their brain...but they had a number of bench players at the time that either had experience with the Warriors or were savvy veterans, and if those guys get plucked by other teams, how well can the Warriors expect to reload in the off-season?

Time will tell.

(I see the Dante signing and that seems pretty reasonable, but still, might be some bumpiness in their future.)
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#233 » by ronnymac2 » Sat Jul 2, 2022 6:56 pm

Darius Garland signed an extension, which is great for both he and the Cavs. Cleveland appears to have a bright future with some excellent young players like Garland, Mobley, and Jarrett (still under 25 years old).

I'm a fan of Garland. I paid attention to him this year due to fantasy basketball, but man is he good. Nearly a 90% ft shooter as well, so is appears he's got a higher ceiling than he's shown shooting from the perimeter (which is already still pretty good). His durability can be questioned as he's missed time all three years - I know this year was due to back issues, which is worrisome. Still, great young PG in Cleveland...they have to do whatever it takes to keep him.

What is the team's trajectory? Maybe 3rd year Mobley makes them a scary darkhorse contender in 2024?
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#234 » by sp6r=underrated » Sat Jul 2, 2022 7:02 pm

Durant is the focus of the basketball world due to his childish trade demand. Durant didn't give the Nets their money's worth on or off the court. On the court he missed a lot of time, and didn't play as well as expected. Off the court he enabled and supported his friend's selfish actions. And when management finally said no to his friend he instantly said get me out of here. Basically, if you won't give my friend a quarter of a billion I have no interest in being here.

Nor did the fans get anything approaching the bill of goods that were sold to them.

All of that reminded me of this interaction.

Read on Twitter


A lot of fans are jerks. Many fans say stuff that crosses the line that warrants being told to STFU. Is this being annoying? Yeah. Did he say anything that warranted a response? No.

My impression of why Durant told the guy to STFU is simply he doesn't think fans should critique players. His words were pointed: “You gotta shut the **** up and sit down”

Ticket sales make up less and less of NBA revenue. Do you think the day will ever come when players say get rid of the fans alltogether from the arena?

Look at the bubble, players shot way better in the bubble than elsewhere. Guys like Durant think of themselves as artists. I could easily see him or someone like him saying in essence fans are impeding the artists.


I doubt it will happen but I wouldn't be surprised if a major players makes that demand this decade.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#235 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jul 2, 2022 7:05 pm

ronnymac2 wrote:Darius Garland signed an extension, which is great for both he and the Cavs. Cleveland appears to have a bright future with some excellent young players like Garland, Mobley, and Jarrett (still under 25 years old).

I'm a fan of Garland. I paid attention to him this year due to fantasy basketball, but man is he good. Nearly a 90% ft shooter as well, so is appears he's got a higher ceiling than he's shown shooting from the perimeter (which is already still pretty good). His durability can be questioned as he's missed time all three years - I know this year was due to back issues, which is worrisome. Still, great young PG in Cleveland...they have to do whatever it takes to keep him.

What is the team's trajectory? Maybe 3rd year Mobley makes them a scary darkhorse contender in 2024?


Good! And yeah, I think the Garland/Mobley duo is absolutely terrifying for the rest of the league to consider in the long term. I think one wild card will continue to be how much the twin tower line-up with Mobley & Allen really makes. Not saying it can't be great, but in the end, despite the hot start last year, I have concerns.

Last note, feel for Sexton a bit here. This is a guy who a year ago was in the spot Garland is now - eligible for that big rookie extension - and it was so easy to imagine the Cavs convincing themselves that Sexton was their young perimeter star...but they held off, Sexton got hurt, and Garland got his time to shine.

Gosh as I think about it, I feel like I owe Altman additional props for holding off on Sexton then.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#236 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jul 2, 2022 7:07 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:Ticket sales make up less and less of NBA revenue. Do you think the day will ever come when players say get rid of the fans alltogether from the arena?

Look at the bubble, players shot way better in the bubble than elsewhere. Guys like Durant think of themselves as artists. I could easily see him or someone like him saying in essence fans are impeding the artists.


I doubt it will happen but I wouldn't be surprised if a major players makes that demand this decade.


For the NBA? No.

But could I see a guy like Kyrie leaving the NBA and trying to monetize one-on-one and AND-1 style videos where only cult members are allowed to be present? Absolutely.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#237 » by sp6r=underrated » Sat Jul 2, 2022 7:15 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:Ticket sales make up less and less of NBA revenue. Do you think the day will ever come when players say get rid of the fans alltogether from the arena?

Look at the bubble, players shot way better in the bubble than elsewhere. Guys like Durant think of themselves as artists. I could easily see him or someone like him saying in essence fans are impeding the artists.


I doubt it will happen but I wouldn't be surprised if a major players makes that demand this decade.


For the NBA? No.

But could I see a guy like Kyrie leaving the NBA and trying to monetize one-on-one and AND-1 style videos where only cult members are allowed to be present? Absolutely.



The real risk for the NBA is an enterprising businessperson figures out a way to make 3 on 3, half court basketball work. You need to tailor the rules carefully to ensure guys like Kyrie are the best players in the League and ensure no bigs.

But if you could design a league that resulted in players who play like Kyrie being the best players, that league really would have a market as a boxing style, Vegas centric PPV sport.

There wouldn't be a season at all. It would just be a random collection of games announced. One month Kyrie-Durant-Harden vs Curry-Lebron-Zion. And then in a two months the names are scrambled.

A lot of basketball fans really are player fans. They don't care at all about games without the stars hence the constant demands to shorten the regular season. And out of the player fans many of them plainly prefer the Kyrie Irvings of the world over other player types.

And there are a lot of players who really don't enjoy 5 on 5 basketball. Does Durant ever give the impression that he thinks the courts needs 10 people? Not that I'm aware of.

If you made a league were those guys dominated, I could see a real possibility of the basketball culture fracturing, with a portion of the audience following the PPV league and a portion of top players jumping over. The superstar centric player fans would like it without Danny Greens out there. Kyrie would like it because he could have a boxer's schedule.

Maybe 5% chance this happens over next 30 yrs.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#238 » by MartinToVaught » Sat Jul 2, 2022 7:36 pm

Even if a 3-on-3 league did everything right, it would be about as much of a threat to the NBA as the Arena League was to the NFL.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#239 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jul 2, 2022 8:33 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:Ticket sales make up less and less of NBA revenue. Do you think the day will ever come when players say get rid of the fans alltogether from the arena?

Look at the bubble, players shot way better in the bubble than elsewhere. Guys like Durant think of themselves as artists. I could easily see him or someone like him saying in essence fans are impeding the artists.


I doubt it will happen but I wouldn't be surprised if a major players makes that demand this decade.


For the NBA? No.

But could I see a guy like Kyrie leaving the NBA and trying to monetize one-on-one and AND-1 style videos where only cult members are allowed to be present? Absolutely.



The real risk for the NBA is an enterprising businessperson figures out a way to make 3 on 3, half court basketball work. You need to tailor the rules carefully to ensure guys like Kyrie are the best players in the League and ensure no bigs.

But if you could design a league that resulted in players who play like Kyrie being the best players, that league really would have a market as a boxing style, Vegas centric PPV sport.

There wouldn't be a season at all. It would just be a random collection of games announced. One month Kyrie-Durant-Harden vs Curry-Lebron-Zion. And then in a two months the names are scrambled.

A lot of basketball fans really are player fans. They don't care at all about games without the stars hence the constant demands to shorten the regular season. And out of the player fans many of them plainly prefer the Kyrie Irvings of the world over other player types.

And there are a lot of players who really don't enjoy 5 on 5 basketball. Does Durant ever give the impression that he thinks the courts needs 10 people? Not that I'm aware of.

If you made a league were those guys dominated, I could see a real possibility of the basketball culture fracturing, with a portion of the audience following the PPV league and a portion of top players jumping over. The superstar centric player fans would like it without Danny Greens out there. Kyrie would like it because he could have a boxer's schedule.

Maybe 5% chance this happens over next 30 yrs.


I actually felt that during the Covid Hiatus, the NBA had a vulnerability to something like this getting formed. Had some enterprising players started something like that then with an effective plan, it could have potentially made enough money that players would decided to leave the NBA and do this instead.

Not suggesting that players en masse would ever stop playing in the NBA when an NBA team still owed them $100,000,000+ more in salary so long as they reported for work, but once the door got opened there, you could see a player like Kyrie deciding he didn't need the NBA any more.

Now, Kyrie frankly doesn't seem like a big enough deal that him leaving would necessarily be devastating for the NBA, but if someone had Kyrie's aesthetic game with his wacko brain and was a bit more effective as a competitive 5 on 5 player, it could end up being a big deal.

Imagine Jordan stepping away from the Bulls after the first 3 peat in an era with social media. If the best and most popular player in the world leaves the NBA, look out. And then you'd get into the ugly realities of a league like the NBA being unable to easily downsize. If the NBA loses 20% of its revenue while still being on the hook for contracts they made in headier days, a whole host of problems will come to the fore.

Realistically now though, given how unimportant Kyrie is to the NBA, I think the possibly bigger threat to the NBA comes with the future of the Olympics.

Let's say 2024 comes around and either Jokic or Doncic leads their team to the Gold, and then leaves the NBA to play full time in Europe. In a basketball world where globalization means that international players determine where the best basketball is being played, the NBA's dominance is potentially at risk if those international players no longer feel like proving themselves in the NBA is the goal of any top basketball player.

This would of course have to come with other leagues being willing and able to pay salaries at least in the ballpark of what the NBA pays, which might seem far-fetched, but it's not like European soccer clubs aren't already paying out cash on this scale. There will be forces in Europe that can pay that amount of money if they want, so it will be a question of whether the European fan market will justify paying that money.

I don't know how close that is to being a reality, but learning things like the fact that more RealGM GB posters are European now than American is pretty eye-opening. Surely was not the case when I joined the site.
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Re: 2022-23 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#240 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jul 2, 2022 8:35 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:Even if a 3-on-3 league did everything right, it would be about as much of a threat to the NBA as the Arena League was to the NFL.


2 things:

1. Remember that these other basketball ventures don't need to beat the NBA to weaken the NBA, and a weakened NBA would run into problems paying the contracts it's committed to paying.

2. All of this is contingent on actual big time basketball stars choosing to do this. If you make a 3-on-3 league that only has guys with arena-league level talent, no one will care.
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