The Explorer wrote:One_and_Done wrote:dygaction wrote:
LeBron's championships all had at least one HOF/all-nba teammate in their prime, sometimes two; Jokic yet to have an all-star teammate yet. You don't tell me Jokic don't win with Bosh/Wade, or Love/Kyrie.
This is one of those silly technicalities people cite that means nothing.
Facts are not silly technicalities. Some pretty bad arguments here.
One_and_Done wrote:Firstly, Jamal Murray is clearly an all-star talent, if not an all-nba talent, and at this rate will plainly make the HOF. He's missed out due to poorly timed injuries before the all-star break, and tough competition. Who are you taking? All-NBA Randle, or Jamal Murray? All-star Jameer Nelson, or Jamal? I think the answer is pretty obvious.
He didn't make an all star team because of tough competition?
He's a HOFamer without making a single all star team? That's pretty much impossible to do.
One_and_Done wrote:Secondly, it's also about fit. Lebron and Wade were clearly not an optimal fit. Peak Lebron would have been better served with a worse running mate who fit better.
It wasn't the best fit because James did not adjust his style of play to the needs of the roster. It was only after Wade adjusted his play that they started seeing some success. Wade was willing to sacrifice, not James.
"I definitely changed mine [game] more," Wade said. "It's not even a conversation. There's no conversation to have. I definitely had to change mine more."
And you do realize James chose his teammates and much of the Heat's rosters right? And despite that he still failed by his own expectations by only winning 2 of 4. Jokic has not General Managed the Nuggets, nor has he had all star teammates, let alone HOF teammates or top 75 teammates, and yet is peaking at a near GOAT level. James, despite all the advantages, failed more than he succeeded.
One_and_Done wrote:Love certainly didn't play like an all-star in Cleveland, he would lose minutes to Tristan Thompson for being a defensive liability. Those Cavs also lost to the stacked Warriors teams. The 17 & 18 Warriors would have torched this Nuggets team.
Irving made all-nba in 2015 with James, and made the all-star roster in 2017, which is more
elite help than Jokic has ever had thus far.
People are not only all-stars in the years they make it. Conley has 1 all-star appearances as an injury replacement, yet Conley is a likely HoFer. Manu had 2. Joe Johnson played in the weak East and had 7. I think it's pretty clear Johnson was worse than Manu, but that's how circumstances go sometimes. If Murray keeps playing this way and isn't injured for a big chunk of games he will clearly make all-star teams, if not all-nba teams. Randle has 3 all-star teams and 2 all-nba teams, but it's obvious Murray is the better player, especially in the playoffs where Randle has sucked.
Wade and Lebron learned to play together, but it was never an optimal fit. What was particularly suboptimal in the 2011 finals, moreso than Wade's synergy with Lebron, was a starting line-up of J.Anthony, Bosh (who didn't shoot 3s back then), Wade and a washed Bibby (who couldn't hit 2s or 3s). Lebron teams need spacing so he can thrive, just like Jokic. That team had zero spacing. The next year they fixed that by starting Bosh at the 5 (with instructions to shoot 3s, adding Battier as a 3@D guy, and switching out Bibby for Chalmers who could shoot 3s. The starting line-up became fast and switchable too.
The claim Lebron 'wasn't willing to sacrifice' is dumb, it's particularly dumb because that's exactly what he tried to do in the 11 finals. He realised playing your-turn my turn with a guy who wanted to play the same role as him was problematic, so he tried to take on the Magic Johnson role. Pace adjusted, Lebron's stats in those finals are similar to Magic in the 80 finals, or the 82 playoffs. It actually almost worked as they got a 2-1 lead, which would have been 3-0 without a blown lead. Eventually though the structural issues noted above were too much. Frankly Wade should have been the one to sacrifice all along, because Lebron was much better than him.
Trust me, Lebron didn't choose Joel Anthony or washed Mike Bibby, and if he had what would it matter? We're judging him as a player not a GM. We all know most players are clueless at valuing other players anyway.
Lebron won the years he should have, and sometimes won even when he shouldn't have (eg 2016). If being great meant you won every year regardless of context then Jokic wouldn't have only 1 ring.