2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread

[eminence]

Some big names out the last two days. Jokic/SGA will certainly be on my ballot. Brunson is a maybe.

Need to think about SGA vs Jokic a bit more, initial impression goes Jokic, but how the WCF goes could influence my take.

[Heej]

Does 22yo Ant present the closest facsimile to 22yo Jordan ever? Flaws and all? S tier athlete and wiser than his years but has legitimate exploitable flaws much like Jokic

Imo Jokic is of the Bird/Dirk archetype and probably gonna have more variance in his game because I do believe the ballhandling critique as far as self creation.

[Peregrine01]

Does 22yo Ant present the closest facsimile to 22yo Jordan ever? Flaws and all? S tier athlete and wiser than his years but has legitimate exploitable flaws much like Jokic

Every player has some flaw except for maybe Lebron from 2012-2018. Don’t worry, no one objective thinks Jokic is the same player that Bron is.

[Heej]

Does 22yo Ant present the closest facsimile to 22yo Jordan ever? Flaws and all? S tier athlete and wiser than his years but has legitimate exploitable flaws much like Jokic

Every player has some flaw except for maybe Lebron from 2012-2018. Don’t worry, no one objective thinks Jokic is the same player that Bron is.

Unfortunately many do, which is why I believe this is the first time I've seen the best player in the world be the most overrated player in the world since perhaps Kobe. Wonder what the common denominator is.

[Peregrine01]

Does 22yo Ant present the closest facsimile to 22yo Jordan ever? Flaws and all? S tier athlete and wiser than his years but has legitimate exploitable flaws much like Jokic

Every player has some flaw except for maybe Lebron from 2012-2018. Don’t worry, no one objective thinks Jokic is the same player that Bron is.

Unfortunately many do, which is why I believe this is the first time I've seen the best player in the world be the most overrated player in the world. Wonder what the common denominator is.

People are prone to hyperbole. No need to overcompensate the other way.

[Heej]

Every player has some flaw except for maybe Lebron from 2012-2018. Don’t worry, no one objective thinks Jokic is the same player that Bron is.

Unfortunately many do, which is why I believe this is the first time I've seen the best player in the world be the most overrated player in the world. Wonder what the common denominator is.

People are prone to hyperbole. No need to overcompensate the other way.

I think the overton window has shifted pretty far for you if you think directing valid criticsm is overcompensation. My observations on the current era of ball have never wavered. Teams need the most answers for the most schemes now. Any relative deficiency within a specific skill legitimately decays generated advantages from plays at a logarithmic rate. Nowadays being a 7/10 ballhandler in a league-wide sense (not just for centers) isn't good enough to consistently generate advantages, when the greatest offensive weapons are over the threshold for creating vs high level defenses.

[Peregrine01]

Unfortunately many do, which is why I believe this is the first time I've seen the best player in the world be the most overrated player in the world. Wonder what the common denominator is.

People are prone to hyperbole. No need to overcompensate the other way.

I think the overton window has shifted pretty far for you if you think this is overcompensation.

You seemed to single him out for a little shade now that he's lost (i.e. talking about Ant having exploitable flaws and then referencing Jokic). It's natural to be super defensive about your favorite player but just recognize that sensible posters never took the comparison seriously.

[Texas Chuck]

This Jokic discussion has become super toxic.

[Heej]

People are prone to hyperbole. No need to overcompensate the other way.

I think the overton window has shifted pretty far for you if you think this is overcompensation.

You seemed to single him out for a little shade now that he's lost (i.e. talking about Ant having exploitable flaws and then referencing Jokic). It's natural to be super defensive about your favorite player but just recognize that sensible posters never took the comparison seriously.

My previous post was criticizing both stars for not showing up. I needed time to expound on my Jokic take. I've already spoken on how Ant being of the Jordan archetype struggles vs swarms, and Jokic gets most limited by the Ham defense. Think Wemby might be the guy able to solve the most problems of his era much like the previous Mt Rushmore players.

This is insane to me. This era is like an NBA 2k sim to me where the greatest players ever face off. We have generational facsimiles of MJ, Bird, and Kareem

[Doctor MJ]

So, I clicked on the thread looking to talk about how interesting it is when the top 2 MVP guys have their teams eliminated early while also clearly being the best player on the court.

I'm not sure if people disagree with those assessments, or if it doesn't really matter to people. If 34/18/7 from the star of the losing team doesn't make people think the result was about the teams rather than the disappointment of the star, I'm skeptical anything could.

Anyway, My current feeling is that I'd still have Jokic & SGA in the Top 2 spots, but clearly Luka & Ant have the ability to add on to their season so maybe that will put them over the top for me. It would just be a lot easier to get my head around that if their play against the Top 2 MVP guys was more consistent.

Beyond those 4, Tatum feels like the guy poised to inherit a top 5 spot, though I could see a case for a #2 guy (like Gobert) emerging.

[Doctor MJ]

Unfortunately many do, which is why I believe this is the first time I've seen the best player in the world be the most overrated player in the world since perhaps Kobe. Wonder what the common denominator is.

I feel like you're focusing on the stuff that triggers you and ignoring the rest. Yes, there were some people championing Jokic as the GOAT peak...there's also a vocal group of people - most vocally former players - who see Jokic as not even an MVP level guy.

I would suggest that what's happening now isn't so much that new guys are getting on-average overrated, but that the takes are just getting more and more extreme, with more and more people focused take-downs of others.

Re: what the common denominator is? Not sure if you're just asking this rhetorically. If you have a thought on it, I think you should elaborate.

My immediate thought? Because the polarization around Kobe was foreshadowing of what everything would become, and since we're in the '23-24 season and you're noticing this, you're noticing this about Jokic.

[Peregrine01]

So, I clicked on the thread looking to talk about how interesting it is when the top 2 MVP guys have their teams eliminated early while also clearly being the best player on the court.

I'm not sure if people disagree with those assessments, or if it doesn't really matter to people. If 34/18/7 from the star of the losing team doesn't make people think the result was about the teams rather than the disappointment of the star, I'm skeptical anything could.

Anyway, My current feeling is that I'd still have Jokic & SGA in the Top 2 spots, but clearly Luka & Ant have the ability to add on to their season so maybe that will put them over the top for me. It would just be a lot easier to get my head around that if their play against the Top 2 MVP guys was more consistent.

Beyond those 4, Tatum feels like the guy poised to inherit a top 5 spot, though I could see a case for a #2 guy (like Gobert) emerging.

Everything turns to trash once you have a Bron comparison - some people just become incapable of having a reasoned discussion. As for Jokic and the Nuggets, I think that this series went 7 will be viewed as a minor miracle given how poor Murray and MPJ played.

[Texas Chuck]

Waiting on Doc to get on the Luka train. By your new favorite stat, Luka is having a very good playoffs--only been a negative on/off once in these playoffs--game 1 against OKC.

I don't know that he can catch SGA/Jokic. Doesn't help SGA was just the best player in their series. But he's definitely trending up again after a really tough first round.

[eminence]

So, I clicked on the thread looking to talk about how interesting it is when the top 2 MVP guys have their teams eliminated early while also clearly being the best player on the court.

I'm not sure if people disagree with those assessments, or if it doesn't really matter to people.

I agree with the above. SGA/Jokic looked like the best individual players of the 2nd round.

I'd note that Tatum/the Celtics haven't really been pushed, so I could see breaking his way if the Celtics either A) cruise to a title or B) Tatum steps up another level when faced with a competitive series. But it's hard to see Luka/Ant/Gobert over their direct opponents after this round 2.

And I seem to be the only one that high on Tatum.

[Heej]

Unfortunately many do, which is why I believe this is the first time I've seen the best player in the world be the most overrated player in the world since perhaps Kobe. Wonder what the common denominator is.

I feel like you're focusing on the stuff that triggers you and ignoring the rest. Yes, there were some people championing Jokic as the GOAT peak...there's also a vocal group of people - most vocally former players - who see Jokic as not even an MVP level guy.

I would suggest that what's happening now isn't so much that new guys are getting on-average overrated, but that the takes are just getting more and more extreme, with more and more people focused take-downs of others.

Re: what the common denominator is? Not sure if you're just asking this rhetorically. If you have a thought on it, I think you should elaborate.

My immediate thought? Because the polarization around Kobe was foreshadowing of what everything would become, and since we're in the '23-24 season and you're noticing this, you're noticing this about Jokic.

Eh, I think the majority of online hot take discourse is more in line with the pulse of general sentiment vs a few unreliable media pundits. To me the common denominator is that people have legitimate Derangement Syndrome with both jordan and lebron, even between the 2 fanbases.

I agree that views are becoming more extreme in general on a societal level, but I think basketball much like society functions best in a paradigm that is most balanced. As I've said now and will say forevermore, playoff basketball is about having the most solutions to the most coverages.

With where I'm at with how I consume basketball it's almost algorithmic in a sense as far as how certain possessions play out, and people underestimate how repeatable some guys' actions are for better or for worse.

[Peregrine01]

Unfortunately many do, which is why I believe this is the first time I've seen the best player in the world be the most overrated player in the world since perhaps Kobe. Wonder what the common denominator is.

I feel like you're focusing on the stuff that triggers you and ignoring the rest. Yes, there were some people championing Jokic as the GOAT peak...there's also a vocal group of people - most vocally former players - who see Jokic as not even an MVP level guy.

I would suggest that what's happening now isn't so much that new guys are getting on-average overrated, but that the takes are just getting more and more extreme, with more and more people focused take-downs of others.

Re: what the common denominator is? Not sure if you're just asking this rhetorically. If you have a thought on it, I think you should elaborate.

My immediate thought? Because the polarization around Kobe was foreshadowing of what everything would become, and since we're in the '23-24 season and you're noticing this, you're noticing this about Jokic.

Eh, I think the majority of online hot take discourse is more in line with the pulse of general sentiment vs a few unreliable media pundits. To me the common denominator is that people have legitimate Derangement Syndrome with both jordan and lebron, even between the 2 fanbases.

I agree that views are becoming more extreme in general on a societal level, but I think basketball much like society functions best in a paradigm that is most balanced. As I've said now and will say forevermore, playoff basketball is about having the most solutions to the most coverages.

With where I'm at with how I consume basketball it's almost algorithmic in a sense as far as how certain possessions play out, and people underestimate how repeatable some guys' actions are for better or for worse.

Damn. You must be a genius. Why is your galaxy brain on this forum then if you have it all figured out?

Baiting. trex

[Doctor MJ]

Unfortunately many do, which is why I believe this is the first time I've seen the best player in the world be the most overrated player in the world since perhaps Kobe. Wonder what the common denominator is.

I feel like you're focusing on the stuff that triggers you and ignoring the rest. Yes, there were some people championing Jokic as the GOAT peak...there's also a vocal group of people - most vocally former players - who see Jokic as not even an MVP level guy.

I would suggest that what's happening now isn't so much that new guys are getting on-average overrated, but that the takes are just getting more and more extreme, with more and more people focused take-downs of others.

Re: what the common denominator is? Not sure if you're just asking this rhetorically. If you have a thought on it, I think you should elaborate.

My immediate thought? Because the polarization around Kobe was foreshadowing of what everything would become, and since we're in the '23-24 season and you're noticing this, you're noticing this about Jokic.

Eh, I think the majority of online hot take discourse is more in line with the pulse of general sentiment vs a few unreliable media pundits. To me the common denominator is that people have legitimate Derangement Syndrome with both jordan and lebron, even between the 2 fanbases.

I agree that views are becoming more extreme in general on a societal level, but I think basketball much like society functions best in a paradigm that is most balanced. As I've said now and will say forevermore, playoff basketball is about having the most solutions to the most coverages.

With where I'm at with how I consume basketball it's almost algorithmic in a sense as far as how certain possessions play out, and people underestimate how repeatable some guys' actions are for better or for worse.

Wait so the "common denominator" of Jokic & Kobe is caused by how people see Jordan & LeBron? Eh, I don't really think that's getting to the bottom of this stuff.

Re: "more extreme in general...but I think basketball functions best...most balanced". Not sure how all that links together. Certainly we can all agree that "balance" is a good thing, just a question of precisely what we're talking about.

Re: "playoff basketball is about having the most solutions to the most coverages". That's a meaningful basketball statement. I won't quite co-sign it, but I think there's a lot of truth in it. Nothing is unstoppable, but stopping it comes at a cost. The more versatile your team, the less cost you pay.

[falcolombardi]

Out of my top 4 regular seasons (shai/luka/jokic/giannis)

One missed the playoffs being hurt

Two were really good (shai a bit more so than jokic in both rs and po from my admittedly biased perspective) but are out early

Luka has not had his best playoffs but is still in. A great wcf/finals (title or not) puts him in a comfortable spot for poy

Edwards or tatum are there, and while i thinl as players they are and have beem a step below the best of shai/jokic/giannis...they are still in the playoffs and can add more great games to their resume.

So while they are unlikely to get -real- best player inthe world talk, they can be dark horses for a poy award

[TheGOATRises007]

Unfortunately many do, which is why I believe this is the first time I've seen the best player in the world be the most overrated player in the world since perhaps Kobe. Wonder what the common denominator is.

I feel like you're focusing on the stuff that triggers you and ignoring the rest. Yes, there were some people championing Jokic as the GOAT peak...there's also a vocal group of people - most vocally former players - who see Jokic as not even an MVP level guy.

I would suggest that what's happening now isn't so much that new guys are getting on-average overrated, but that the takes are just getting more and more extreme, with more and more people focused take-downs of others.

Re: what the common denominator is? Not sure if you're just asking this rhetorically. If you have a thought on it, I think you should elaborate.

My immediate thought? Because the polarization around Kobe was foreshadowing of what everything would become, and since we're in the '23-24 season and you're noticing this, you're noticing this about Jokic.

Eh, I think the majority of online hot take discourse is more in line with the pulse of general sentiment vs a few unreliable media pundits. To me the common denominator is that people have legitimate Derangement Syndrome with both jordan and lebron, even between the 2 fanbases.

I agree that views are becoming more extreme in general on a societal level, but I think basketball much like society functions best in a paradigm that is most balanced. As I've said now and will say forevermore, playoff basketball is about having the most solutions to the most coverages.

With where I'm at with how I consume basketball it's almost algorithmic in a sense as far as how certain possessions play out, and people underestimate how repeatable some guys' actions are for better or for worse.

That's pretty funny.

[Dutchball97]

Couple of thoughts on other awards. 6MOY is likely going to be determined in the final rounds as outside of OKC I don't see any eliminated teams with bench guys that should be in the convo and even among the OKC bench I don't think any of them would crack my top 3 right now, with Aaron Wiggins probably being the best of the bunch. Horford was my frontrunner going into the play-offs but he's started too much to qualify. Dallas also doesn't have any bench guys worth mentioning tbh. It's pretty much a 6-horse race for me now with Pritchard/Hauser, Naz/NAW and Toppin/McConnell.

OPOY seems like a clear win for Jokic. He and Luka were the top 2 offensive players in the regular season by quite some distance and Jokic leads the league in OBPM in the play-offs as well. Luka hasn't had as strong of a post-season on offense but not particularly bad either, he has a chance to make a statement agains the best defensive team in the league next round. After that there was a pursuit group of SGA, Haliburton, Giannis, Brunson, Curry, Mitchell, Embiid and Booker. Giannis and Curry didn't even make a play-off apearance, while Embiid, Booker, Mitchell and Brunson didn't do enough to make up the ground they needed. Haliburton and SGA definitely did impress though after already being my #3 and #4 offensive players going into the play-offs. So Jokic is almost certainly my #1 and Haliburton seems like a lock to make the ballot too as long as he doesn't completely crumble against the Celtics. For now I'd probably have SGA 3rd with Luka having the possibility to take his spot.

DPOY really looks like Gobert and the also rans. Wemby might have just been the most impressive defender in the regular season but him missing the play-offs really hurt his chances. Bam was my (and most people's) #2 pick for DPOY behind Gobert but he didn't do much to further his case in the post-season either. Chet had a good shot to make a case but can't say he impressed me enough. Mobley popped up on the radar of a lot of people during the Boston series but I thought Jarrett Allen was the better defender on the Cavs for most of the season, he'd have been a lock for my ballot if not for the injury. OG is in a similar boat as Allen where he was making a strong case before getting injured. DPOY is not an award I often consider many players from the same but McDaniels should at least be in the conversation as he's probably been the best perimeter defender in the league. Maybe I can be talked into throwing a vote at someone on the Celtics but that team looks more like a solid all around group with no clear standouts. The Magic was similar. Outside of Gobert at #1 this is going to be the hardest ballot to make sense of.