The Lebron Thread

[IG2]

I have to BUMP this mid-game. LeBron's painful stretch continues. Can't make a jumper to save his life, and he's trying to over-compensate on this big stage by trying to do too much in transition, and his lack of explosiveness is getting exposed.

[SideshowBob]

Yeah he needs to get out of this slump. His jumpers been atrocious outside of the first four games in December

[IG2]

Yeah he needs to get out of this slump. His jumpers been atrocious outside of the first four games in December

I wouldn't go that far. He was pretty solid the first 20-odd games of the season. Somewhat inconsistent, but solid. Ever since that 40 point game @ Milwaukee though(his last GREAT shooting game), he's been on a free-fall. That was 13 games ago. Make it 13 straight games of sub-par perimeter shooting.

[SideshowBob]

Yeah he needs to get out of this slump. His jumpers been atrocious outside of the first four games in December

I wouldn't go that far. He was pretty solid the first 20-odd games of the season. Somewhat inconsistent, but solid. Ever since that 40 point game @ Milwaukee though(his last GREAT shooting game), he's been on a free-fall. That was 13 games ago. Make it 13 straight games of sub-par perimeter shooting.

True, but overall in January, he still only only shot 39.4% from 16-23, which is inexcusable for a guy who shot 45% last year and 55% over the last 30 or so games. At the worst I would've expected him to be in the low 40s, this is just pathetic

http://www.hoopdata.com/splits.aspx?player=LeBron%20James

[tsherkin]

40% FG is about what he should be expected to average and is still solid. Not great, but not bad. Last year was an anomaly season, he was never going to maintain that.

[IG2]

True, but overall in January, he still only only shot 39.4% from 16-23, which is inexcusable for a guy who shot 45% last year and 55% over the last 30 or so games. At the worst I would've expected him to be in the low 40s, this is just pathetic

http://www.hoopdata.com/splits.aspx?player=LeBron%20James

Damn

Well, still think he's the best?

[IG2]

Sooo, thoughts on LeBron's ASG performance?

It was basically a replica of last year. His pride and competitiveness made the game competitive, but like last year, the limitations of his game were also on fine display. He only had 1 basket in the half-court via driving all game. It was also his ONLY slashing attempt in the half-court all game. That says it all.

He was unconscious from 3, which is funny, because as much as he's struggled with 2pt jump shots all February, he's had no trouble with the 3 ball. My only wish going into the 2nd half is he somehow discovers his mid-range jumper again. If not, the playoffs are going to be a real grind for him. He won't find those transition freebies in the postseason. His efficiency could really plummet.

Have to mention the last possession, because that's the ONLY thing everybody will talk about regarding the game....and what an implosion that was. And the sad thing is I could see it coming a mile away. I knew he was going to pass it up. He just doesn't have confidence in his jumper with the game on the line and since he can't drive, he'll always look to PASS.

[Nitro1118]

Are you really going to dissect his ASG performance? He was ridiculous from 3, had some nasty dunks in the open court (showed me his vertical explosion hasn't gone anywhere), and on that turnover he was being doubled from 30ft out. I still think he should have dribbled away from the double team and taken the shot, but it wouldn't have been a "good" shot by any means.

This isn't the type of game where he can show off his newfound confidence and moves in the post, which has opened up his halfcourt offense this season so far. It isn't the type of game where you show off any real fundementals besides exceptionally difficult open-court dunks and 3pt attempts.

[SideshowBob]

Sooo, thoughts on LeBron's ASG performance?

It's an All Star game, can't get too serious about it.

It was basically a replica of last year. His pride and competitiveness made the game competitive, but like last year, the limitations of his game were also on fine display. He only had 1 basket in the half-court via driving all game. It was also his ONLY slashing attempt in the half-court all game. That says it all.

Yeah, and he looked slow as hell on that spin drive.

He was unconscious from 3, which is funny, because as much as he's struggled with 2pt jump shots all February, he's had no trouble with the 3 ball. My only wish going into the 2nd half is he somehow discovers his mid-range jumper again. If not, the playoffs are going to be a real grind for him. He won't find those transition freebies in the postseason. His efficiency could really plummet.

I'm not too worried. He shot just as bad from mid range to start the season last year, and caught fire after the all star break. I think he'll get his jumper back.

Have to mention the last possession, because that's the ONLY thing everybody will talk about regarding the game....and what an implosion that was. And the sad thing is I could see it coming a mile away. I knew he was going to pass it up. He just doesn't have confidence in his jumper with the game on the line and since he can't drive, he'll always look to PASS.

+1 Saw it coming as well, knew he wouldn't shoot it. 2009 Lebron would've tied the game there.

Again though, it's the All Star game

[IG2]

Yeah, and he looked slow as hell on that spin drive.

Yeah . No way could he have successfully pulled off that move in a regular season game.

I'm not too worried. He shot just as bad from mid range to start the season last year, and caught fire after the all star break. I think he'll get his jumper back.

The thing is, he started off last season slow, and gradually got better as the season went on. He got better(or maintained stellar shooting) every month with the exception of January. This season, we are seeing the opposite. That's why I'm worried. Especially looking at that new release of his. The ball just doesn't look right coming out of his hands.

Again though, it's the All Star game

True, but we can still gauge his ability any time he steps on the court. And he merely confirmed our 2 biggest knocks on him - inability to drive and mental fragility in BIG moments.

[SideshowBob]

Yeah . No way could he have successfully pulled off that move in a regular season game.

I think he might've once this season. The fact that this one instance is memorable just shows how rarely he does it anymore.

The thing is, he started off last season slow, and gradually got better as the season went on. He got better(or maintained stellar shooting) every month with the exception of January. This season, we are seeing the opposite. That's why I'm worried. Especially looking at that new release of his. The ball just doesn't look right coming out of his hands.

Actually his form right now looks different than what we saw in the beginning of the season. I wonder if he's tweaked it again.

True, but we can still gauge his ability any time he steps on the court. And he merely confirmed our 2 biggest knocks on him - inability to drive and mental fragility in BIG moments.

Yup. Can't deny that. But I've given up on trying to push that stance; It's clearly not a popular opinion, and if no one wants to believe it, why should I spend time and effort making an argument.

We can still discuss in this thread though

[IG2]

Actually his form right now looks different than what we saw in the beginning of the season. I wonder if he's tweaked it again.

He's relying a lot more on his wrist and putting very little on his legs. Clearly trying to copy Durant, with whom he worked out a lot this offseason, but it should be obvious to him by now that that form just isn't for him. The ball is often coming from the side of his hand.

Yup. Can't deny that. But I've given up on trying to push that stance; It's clearly not a popular opinion, and if no one wants to believe it, why should I spend time and effort making an argument.

Well, I'm not stopping, as you may have noticed . And our stance is no "opinion" either. It's fact.

[SideshowBob]

Yeah. It seems like the ball is coming even more from the side of his hands now. He's relying a lot more on his wrist and putting very little on his legs. Clearly trying to copy Durant, with whom he worked out a lot this offseason, but it should be obvious to him by now that that release just isn't for him.

Didn't think of that. Dunno why he'd do that though, he REALLY had it going last season, and should've just stuck with that

Well, I'm not stopping, as you may have noticed . And our stance is no "opinion" either. It's fact.

Yes I have and true

[porcerel]

IG2...what do you attribute LeBron's lack of explosion in the half court? I'm thinking wear and tear on his joints and his knees from such a high-impact style. But then again, the fact that he went from being an insane slasher to having trouble blowing past opponents over the course of one summer is puzzling to say the least.

It's really too bad...so many guys in this All-Star game (and just about every other game during the season) had/have moments in the half court sets where they can occasionally make a drive to the basket past their defender look effortless. But LeBron now looks like he has to bull his way into the lane most of the time using his size and strength. It doesn't look easy for him to break guys down off the dribble and most of the time now, he can't do it or looses his dribble.

[SideshowBob]

It's likely wear and tear, and the HEAVY HEAVY minutes he played in his first 5 seasons in Cleveland.

From 04-07, he was playing 41.9 minutes per game. It wasn't till 2008 that he got down to 40 a game (still too high) and finally 2009 when he went down to 37.7 (largely due to the sheer amount of blowouts that season), because he got guys to take the pressure off of him. Then in 2010 he was back up to 39 a game so that didn't help. Not to mention that he was playing 45+ minutes night in night out in the playoffs.

That kind of heavy lifting with that kind of body is certainly going to take its toll. The issue is, how bad does the wear and tear have to be for a guy to lose so much mobility in just one offseason?

[porcerel]

The issue is, how bad does the wear and tear have to be for a guy to completely lose his lateral mobility?

Is LeBron's lateral mobility gone? I haven't seen too many Heat games this season and the ones I have, I've mainly been focused on his offense, but I do recall remembering him (on multiple occasions) having trouble staying in front of his man over the last two seasons.

[SideshowBob]

Not entirely. I misspoke there, I was speaking more on the terms of offense, especially with the ball. He's still the league's best perimeter defender, and I don't think he has THAT much trouble staying in front of his man.

But the issue is with a live dribble, he really struggles. He has to operate out past the 3 point line and just looks really clumsy with the ball. On the other hand, in Cleveland, he was able to weave in and out of the defense, find an open lane to the basket or an open look for his teammates. In Miami, if he wants to work inside the 3 point line, he has to be positioned for it off the ball.

[IG2]

^Welcome to realgm, porcerel!

I'm thinking wear and tear on his joints and his knees from such a high-impact style.

If I had to take a guess, I would say ^this and his weight gain. Compared to '09 and '10, he's a good 5-10 pounds heavier as a Heat. Combine that with the taxing style of ball he always played, especially at that size, it's resulted in premature physical regression. The talk back in the day used to be that LeBron's style of play at his size could prove to be a disaster for his body, and that he could decline sooner than you average NBA player. Maybe that's what we're seeing?

Still, even with all that said, like you, I too look at his decline in astonishment, given it ALL happened within one offseason. He was great as ever in 2010, yet 5 months later, he literally had no slashing game. His entire offensive style of play changed within 5 freaking months. It's unprecedented in NBA history. Never has a player's game changed this much without injuries involved. Watch a Cavalier game from 04-10 today and you wouldn't even recognize LeBron.

so many guys in this All-Star game (and just about every other game during the season) had/have moments in the half court sets where they can occasionally make a drive to the basket past their defender look effortless.

And they do this all the time, not just on occasions. Excluding old guys(Kobe), all all-star swingmen in this league drive at will. This puts LeBron at such a competitive disadvantage on the court. A Heat fan(mopper3) summed it up perfectly a while ago. In order to turn it up, other stars(superstars in particular) simply have to play harder. For LeBron, he has to HOPE his jumper is on. This is why he's often such a no-show during BIG moments of the game. LeBron has to WAIT to find his opportunities or get in rhythm. Other stars CREATE their own opportunities and rhythm.

[porcerel]

Okay, gotcha...his offensive struggle with the ball in the half court is something I noticed early into last season. The vertical decline was the absolute first thing I noticed, though, but both observations drew nothing but laughs from my friends who claimed he was as athletic as ever. In some respects, he's still a freak of nature, but he's far from it as you said with a live dribble when he's not able to get into a full all-out sprint.

His overall impact from the 1st to the 48th minute in a multitude of situations and while facing a variety of defensive schemes just isn't the same...and it's been disappointing as somebody who has been a fan of him since his high school days.

Glad to see I haven't been the only one noticing these things

[SideshowBob]

The vertical decline hasn't been THAT bad IMO. The bigger issue is that he has no explosion on his jumps. He can still get up, to the point where his head touches the rim (a bit lower than before but still great, nonetheless).

What he struggles to do now is finish in traffic. He has no hangtime and really cannot even get up if he's going to be facing contact unless he's got a full head of steam on the break.