RealGM Top 100 LIST- 2014

[Colbinii]

I am not part of this project, but I have read almost every single page in all of the threads. The amount of knowledge I have gained is quite overwhelming when looking back. This should be the point of this, to gain knowledge on ALL of the top NBA players of all time and look at things from others perspectives and see things from other peoples perspectives.

If you don't agree with something, fine, but don't waive your white flag because someone believes something that you find to be ridiculous, especially when it is backed up by facts.

On the KG thing, I have no problem with people voting him 4th. If he had a system like some other greats or had teammates as good as other greats where he could have spent more time focusing on the defensive end and less time being the catalyst on both offense and defense, I have no doubt in my mind he would be regarded as a top 5/7 player right there with Duncan.

[Reservoirdawgs]

From 2000-2005 KG was better than Kobe 5/6 years, but only during 2 or 3 of these years ('02, '04, perhaps '00) is there a large gap in Garnett's favor. From 2006-2010 Kobe was better than Garnett every single year. Furthermore, only the first two of these seasons could be construed as "close," and even then, the 2006 and 2007 gaps are at least as large as 2000 and 2002. From 2011-2013 Kobe is clearly not the player he was before, but it still better than Garnett every year. Arguably significantly so.

Then why don't you argue these points instead of throwing in the towel and bemoaning the project for having no credibility? You said that 2006-10 Kobe was better than Garnett and that only two of the seasons could be construed as "close". If you truly believe this, then present your arguments as others have done. The people who are pro-KG (of which I can only count 2) have at least backed up their views with very valid and well-presented evidence. Do I completely agree with them? Not completely. But I have learned a lot and I respect how they have presented it and backed it up versus the usual "so-and-so is better because I say so" and leave it at that.

[Reservoirdawgs]

I think something needs to be done about RAPM.

I don't regard the stat as anything but useless considering the ridiculous results given, but I don't have a problem with other people using it (as long as it's not the only base of their argument).

My issue is the threads turning into a discussion that belongs on the stats board because the people who believe in RAPM are trying to cram it down the throats of those who don't. I think it's all right if people want to use it as a part of their discussion, but pages of posts that simply sing praises of RAPM as a stat, not in the context of the player being discussed, is useless and distracting.

To be fair, most of the pages of "simply singing praises of RAPM as a stat" are simply due to posters who don't fully understand the stat misrepresenting it because they perceive it does not present their player of choice in as great of a light as they would like. There is no stat that is the be-all, end-all...some place more weight in certain stats and factors based on their own values, be they TS%, eFG%, ORtg, RAPM, team success, etc. If you want to regard the stat as useless then it is your own prerogative, but saying "something needs to be done with RAPM" doesn't lead to any kind of constructive discussion because it is a very valid and useful stat. It would be like someone saying "I don't regard TS% or ORtg as anything but useless" since they have their own wonky results and demand context behind it to truly understand it.

[therealbig3]

I'd take KG over Kobe every year from 97-05 quite easily, with the exception of 01, if only because of Kobe's great playoff run. But as an individual player, I think KG was better. I'd take KG in 01.

06-08 is debatable. I'd side with Kobe, but it's not as clear-cut as some people want to believe. Kobe clearly better in 09 and 10. I'd actually take KG in 11-13.

So imo, there's a 12-5 edge to KG from 97-13, and KG had a clearly higher peak. That's why I'd take him.

[ardee]

I'd take KG over Kobe every year from 97-05 quite easily, with the exception of 01, if only because of Kobe's great playoff run. But as an individual player, I think KG was better. I'd take KG in 01.

06-08 is debatable. I'd side with Kobe, but it's not as clear-cut as some people want to believe. Kobe clearly better in 09 and 10. I'd actually take KG in 11-13.

So imo, there's a 12-5 edge to KG from 97-13, and KG had a clearly higher peak. That's why I'd take him.

1. In what universe is '11-'13 KG comparable to Kobe? Kobe was still securing MVP podium finishes, KG was only an AS in '11 and '13 because the East was devoid of big man talent. Honestly this post astonishes me. KG has a case in 2012 because of that Playoff run he somehow put together but he was awful in 2011 and in 2013 Kobe had a resurgent regular season while KG was closer to role player status. I mean we still had people discussing Kobe in the RPOY thread, KG was well past that stage of his career.

2. Are you ignoring the Playoffs? Do you deny that Kobe probably has 4 Playoff runs better than KG's best ('01, '08, '09 and '10)?

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[PaulieWal]

I'd take KG over Kobe every year from 97-05 quite easily, with the exception of 01, if only because of Kobe's great playoff run. But as an individual player, I think KG was better. I'd take KG in 01.

06-08 is debatable. I'd side with Kobe, but it's not as clear-cut as some people want to believe. Kobe clearly better in 09 and 10. I'd actually take KG in 11-13.

So imo, there's a 12-5 edge to KG from 97-13, and KG had a clearly higher peak. That's why I'd take him.

1. In what universe is '11-'13 KG comparable to Kobe? Kobe was still securing MVP podium finishes, KG was only an AS in '11 and '13 because the East was devoid of big man talent. Honestly this post astonishes me. KG has a case in 2012 because of that Playoff run he somehow put together but he was awful in 2011 and in 2013 Kobe had a resurgent regular season while KG was closer to role player status. I mean we still had people discussing Kobe in the RPOY thread, KG was well past that stage of his career.

2. Are you ignoring the Playoffs? Do you deny that Kobe probably has 4 Playoff runs better than KG's best ('01, '08, '09 and '10)?

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Have to agree with this here. Kobe in 13 was much better than KG in 13, I will give Kobe the edge here in 11 and 12 you could call a wash when you factor in the playoff runs. Overall 11-13 Kobe was a better player than 11-13 KG.

[ardee]

I'd take KG over Kobe every year from 97-05 quite easily, with the exception of 01, if only because of Kobe's great playoff run. But as an individual player, I think KG was better. I'd take KG in 01.

06-08 is debatable. I'd side with Kobe, but it's not as clear-cut as some people want to believe. Kobe clearly better in 09 and 10. I'd actually take KG in 11-13.

So imo, there's a 12-5 edge to KG from 97-13, and KG had a clearly higher peak. That's why I'd take him.

1. In what universe is '11-'13 KG comparable to Kobe? Kobe was still securing MVP podium finishes, KG was only an AS in '11 and '13 because the East was devoid of big man talent. Honestly this post astonishes me. KG has a case in 2012 because of that Playoff run he somehow put together but he was awful in 2011 and in 2013 Kobe had a resurgent regular season while KG was closer to role player status. I mean we still had people discussing Kobe in the RPOY thread, KG was well past that stage of his career.

2. Are you ignoring the Playoffs? Do you deny that Kobe probably has 4 Playoff runs better than KG's best ('01, '08, '09 and '10)?

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Have to agree with this partly here. Kobe in 13 was much better than KG in 13, I will give Kobe the edge here in 11 and 12 you could call a wash when you factor in the playoff runs. Overall 11-13 Kobe was a better player than 11-13 KG.

It's like comparing young early 2000s Kobe to David Robinson at the time.

Insane.

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[therealbig3]

I'd take KG over Kobe every year from 97-05 quite easily, with the exception of 01, if only because of Kobe's great playoff run. But as an individual player, I think KG was better. I'd take KG in 01.

06-08 is debatable. I'd side with Kobe, but it's not as clear-cut as some people want to believe. Kobe clearly better in 09 and 10. I'd actually take KG in 11-13.

So imo, there's a 12-5 edge to KG from 97-13, and KG had a clearly higher peak. That's why I'd take him.

1. In what universe is '11-'13 KG comparable to Kobe? Kobe was still securing MVP podium finishes, KG was only an AS in '11 and '13 because the East was devoid of big man talent. Honestly this post astonishes me. KG has a case in 2012 because of that Playoff run he somehow put together but he was awful in 2011 and in 2013 Kobe had a resurgent regular season while KG was closer to role player status. I mean we still had people discussing Kobe in the RPOY thread, KG was well past that stage of his career.

2. Are you ignoring the Playoffs? Do you deny that Kobe probably has 4 Playoff runs better than KG's best ('01, '08, '09 and '10)?

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1. Kobe had a down year in 2011, and KG had a big bounceback year and anchored the #2 defense in the league that year (2nd only to the Bulls). KG was the best defensive player in the league (again), and his offense was quite good as well. He struggled in the playoffs, but so did Kobe.

I'd go KG in 2012, who was once again the best defensive player in the league, and turned in another strong offensive season...and without the dropoff in the PS. Kobe had a good PS too, but a disappointing RS. And considering the talent on his team (Gasol and Bynum), you can easily argue that the Lakers underachieved.

I'd go KG in 2013, because Kobe flat out missed the playoffs. There's just no way he's helping a team more than a guy who's actually ready come playoff time...and KG actually had a very strong series against the Knicks in the 1st round.

Even if I concede 11-13 to Kobe...That's still a 9-8 edge for KG...with a better peak. But I feel like the defensive side of the ball is once again getting grossly underestimated (especially since Kobe was just a straight up bad defender during this stretch), which is why I'm seeing 11-13 being described as Kobe and not even close, when KG was still anchoring elite defenses and was still the best defender in the league.

2. Again, you can point to offensive stats and say Kobe was better than KG ever was in 01 and 08-10, but when you consider both sides of the ball, KG was just the better player to me throughout his career. That applies to the playoffs too.

[ardee]

I'd take KG over Kobe every year from 97-05 quite easily, with the exception of 01, if only because of Kobe's great playoff run. But as an individual player, I think KG was better. I'd take KG in 01.

06-08 is debatable. I'd side with Kobe, but it's not as clear-cut as some people want to believe. Kobe clearly better in 09 and 10. I'd actually take KG in 11-13.

So imo, there's a 12-5 edge to KG from 97-13, and KG had a clearly higher peak. That's why I'd take him.

1. In what universe is '11-'13 KG comparable to Kobe? Kobe was still securing MVP podium finishes, KG was only an AS in '11 and '13 because the East was devoid of big man talent. Honestly this post astonishes me. KG has a case in 2012 because of that Playoff run he somehow put together but he was awful in 2011 and in 2013 Kobe had a resurgent regular season while KG was closer to role player status. I mean we still had people discussing Kobe in the RPOY thread, KG was well past that stage of his career.

2. Are you ignoring the Playoffs? Do you deny that Kobe probably has 4 Playoff runs better than KG's best ('01, '08, '09 and '10)?

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1. Kobe had a down year in 2011, and KG had a big bounceback year and anchored the #2 defense in the league that year (2nd only to the Bulls). KG was the best defensive player in the league (again), and his offense was quite good as well. He struggled in the playoffs, but so did Kobe.

I'd go KG in 2012, who was once again the best defensive player in the league, and turned in another strong offensive season...and without the dropoff in the PS. Kobe had a good PS too, but a disappointing RS. And considering the talent on his team (Gasol and Bynum), you can easily argue that the Lakers underachieved.

I'd go KG in 2013, because Kobe flat out missed the playoffs. There's just no way he's helping a team more than a guy who's actually ready come playoff time...and KG actually had a very strong series against the Knicks in the 1st round.

Even if I concede 11-13 to Kobe...That's still a 9-8 edge for KG...with a better peak. But I feel like the defensive side of the ball is once again getting grossly underestimated (especially since Kobe was just a straight up bad defender during this stretch), which is why I'm seeing 11-13 being described as Kobe and not even close, when KG was still anchoring elite defenses and was still the best defender in the league.

2. Again, you can point to offensive stats and say Kobe was better than KG ever was in 01 and 08-10, but when you consider both sides of the ball, KG was just the better player to me throughout his career. That applies to the playoffs too.

Ok, there's no convincing either of us, we'll have to agree to disagree.

We'll see who wins in the top 100 project.

[Baller2014]

Penbeast, I've missed the start of this due to holiday. I did participate in the last round and I'm sure you know me from here and the T&T games board. I would very much like to participate; or at the very least offer input into the discussion.

Just curious, what's your top 20 Luke?

[Texas Chuck]

Screw RAPM in regards to KG, but if I get told one more time itt by guys championing him that the only reason Im not voting for him is simply because i don;t want to despite mountains of evidence that make it obvious that I should then Im simply going to stop engaging with those posters.

Im not voting for KG because I disagree with some of the conclusions being reached about him. Is that okay with everyone? I disagree that he is better than Dirk at everything offense-related but scoring. I disagree that his "horizonatal" defense makes him a superior defender to Duncan or Admiral or even Deke. I disagree that all his team results are a result of bad teammates and all of Duncan's are a result of good ones.

That's it. Its not some agenda to stick to my preconceived ideas about KG. It's not that I personally don't like him. Its not that I don't like RAPM. It's that I don't think he's clearly seperated himself above a number of players still eligible to be voted on the list.

So stop condescending to the board that the only reason we aren't voting for KG is because we simply refuse to see the obvious. It's not obvious to everyone.

[HeartBreakKid]

Kobe Bryant having MVP talks in 2011-2013 doesn't actually mean he deserved them.

Kobe Bryant has not been very good the past 2 or 3 years, which include 2012 and 2013. Scored a lot of points, sure, but not dominant, and his defense is embarrassingly bad (James Harden level), in which case he still won defensive awards in 2011, which kinda shows how much his MVP consideration is worth.

KG on the other hand had very tangible and immense impact on the Celtics during those years. When KG moved to center, it basically rejuvenated his career similar to how Duncan's career has made a comeback the past few years.

2011 I can see someone being skeptical of putting KG over Bryant, though KG had a great season that year, probably better than 2012 and 2013. But Bryant fell off really hard in 2012, people citing him as a top 5 player seem like people who don't want to let go of the past, kinda like how there are people who think he will carry LA to the playoffs this year.

The Celtics have been really barebone the past few years, by the time Pierce and KG left, they were literally the only players worth talking about since Rondo was injured, and they were old, yet the Celtics were still able to be somewhat competitive with the better teams in the East. Ray Allen was crap in 2012 with his bone spurts as well, and Boston still held on.

KG was the catalyst for that. Offensively, the Celtics all did their part, KG might even have been the weakest offensive starter during the big 4 era, but on the other side of the court he really left a huge imprint.


Let's not dive into hyperbole about seasons that were recent. Kobe Bryant put up more points than Kevin Garnett but Bryant also gave up a lot of points and wasn't very efficient - KG on the other hand had DPOY caliber impact, certainly better than other DPOYs like Chandler. How can the net difference be large? It isn't a given that Bryant is significantly better than Garnett just because he was in more MVP discussions.

Post prime KG is even more underrated than Prime KG is.

[HeartBreakKid]

I have a question about the voting process.

As of now, I have Hakeem as the best player on the board, so I gave him my 8th vote.


However, the vote is coming between Magic and Bird.

Am I allowed to vote for Bird, who I think is better than Magic before the runoff, even if I do not think either is better than Hakeem? I dont want to make things seem too political or like I have an agenda, but that would best reflect my opinion on the list.

[lukekarts]

Penbeast, I've missed the start of this due to holiday. I did participate in the last round and I'm sure you know me from here and the T&T games board. I would very much like to participate; or at the very least offer input into the discussion.

Just curious, what's your top 20 Luke?

It's not the most concrete list in the world (1 is set, the top 10 are set in some order but open to change):

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Tim Duncan
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Wilt Chamberlain
10. LeBron James
11. Dirk Nowitzki
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Julius Erving
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Kevin Garnett
16. Karl Malone
17. Jerry West
18. David Robinson
19. Moses Malone
20. Charles Barkley

[TrueLAfan]

I’m out of this project too. For the last 36 hours, I’ve been telling myself, “Oh God, you’ve got to post on the RealGM project.” That feeling isn’t pleasant and it’s why I stopped posting (for the most part) a couple of years ago. While, as always, I’ve enjoyed some of the terrific points made by posters like Doctor MJ and ElGee and a few others, I can’t get away from why I don’t enjoy this. A lot of it is just me—to be honest, I take this project and the rankings with a grain of salt. I’d already changed some of my rankings and votes, and we aren’t even out of the top 10. I’m not that attached to a type of analysis or a player. I think this comes easier for me because I don’t think there are conclusive answers or ways of trying to find answers. That’s what should make it fun for me—but it’s not. There’s a grimness to much of this that just brings me down. If I’m forcing myself to write about something I love in an aesthetic, competitive, and intellectual way, then I shouldn’t be around.

FWIW, I agree to some extent with the criticisms and problems the some others have noted. I have always been a stats geek—quite proud of it. Nevertheless, the problem I’m seeing here is not related to RAPM or metrics or any sort of advanced statistics or analysis. It’s related to perception. I have made a conscious effort to pull back from advanced statistics, not because they aren’t useful, but because they aren’t definitive and because certain others see them as such. I keep seeing thing like posters using WOWY data in seasons where a player has missed less than 3 games and pushing it as significant, or asking for advanced statistics for pre-1970 seasons to make definitive conclusion. This indicates an unfortunate trend toward relying so much a metric or type of statistic that you have faith in it even when it’s clear the information is fuzzy. The distinction between letting analysis inform or qualify decisions and letting analysis make or determine decisions gets lost. That leads to increased polarization because people think they have “proof” for their beliefs. This is a perceptual distinction, in my opinion. That kind of polarization is too often led by people that don’t truly understand the analysis they’re attempting to make use of.

And, frankly, I’m just old and tired. Best wishes to my friends on here and for the project in general.

[penbeast0]

I have a question about the voting process.

As of now, I have Hakeem as the best player on the board, so I gave him my 8th vote.


However, the vote is coming between Magic and Bird.

Am I allowed to vote for Bird, who I think is better than Magic before the runoff, even if I do not think either is better than Hakeem? I dont want to make things seem too political or like I have an agenda, but that would best reflect my opinion on the list.

Since there is no way to see into the heads and hearts of posters . . . of course. Strategic voting is fine, especially if it avoids a runoff.

Oh, and Chuck, I don't think it's personal. People are just trying to make their points to the best of their ability.

[SactoKingsFan]

Penbeast, I've missed the start of this due to holiday. I did participate in the last round and I'm sure you know me from here and the T&T games board. I would very much like to participate; or at the very least offer input into the discussion.

Just curious, what's your top 20 Luke?

It's not the most concrete list in the world (1 is set, the top 10 are set in some order but open to change):

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Tim Duncan
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Wilt Chamberlain
10. LeBron James
11. Dirk Nowitzki
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Julius Erving
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Kevin Garnett
16. Karl Malone
17. Jerry West
18. David Robinson
19. Moses Malone
20. Charles Barkley

I think these are the general consensus top 20 players. Exact order differs based on what people value and their evaluation process.

Sent from my G2 via Tapatalk

[ardee]

Kobe Bryant having MVP talks in 2011-2013 doesn't actually mean he deserved them.

Kobe Bryant has not been very good the past 2 or 3 years, which include 2012 and 2013. Scored a lot of points, sure, but not dominant, and his defense is embarrassingly bad (James Harden level), in which case he still won defensive awards in 2011, which kinda shows how much his MVP consideration is worth.

KG on the other hand had very tangible and immense impact on the Celtics during those years. When KG moved to center, it basically rejuvenated his career similar to how Duncan's career has made a comeback the past few years.

2011 I can see someone being skeptical of putting KG over Bryant, though KG had a great season that year, probably better than 2012 and 2013. But Bryant fell off really hard in 2012, people citing him as a top 5 player seem like people who don't want to let go of the past, kinda like how there are people who think he will carry LA to the playoffs this year.

The Celtics have been really barebone the past few years, by the time Pierce and KG left, they were literally the only players worth talking about since Rondo was injured, and they were old, yet the Celtics were still able to be somewhat competitive with the better teams in the East. Ray Allen was crap in 2012 with his bone spurts as well, and Boston still held on.

KG was the catalyst for that. Offensively, the Celtics all did their part, KG might even have been the weakest offensive starter during the big 4 era, but on the other side of the court he really left a huge imprint.


Let's not dive into hyperbole about seasons that were recent. Kobe Bryant put up more points than Kevin Garnett but Bryant also gave up a lot of points and wasn't very efficient - KG on the other hand had DPOY caliber impact, certainly better than other DPOYs like Chandler. How can the net difference be large? It isn't a given that Bryant is significantly better than Garnett just because he was in more MVP discussions.

Post prime KG is even more underrated than Prime KG is.

So you agree 2011 Kobe > KG.

I agree you could say 2012 KG > Kobe, mainly behind the Playoffs.

2013 Kobe though was a return to his prime, offensively at least. He had 27/6/6 on 57% TS, are you seriously telling me those aren't MVP level numbers? He put up an insane number of monster performances on a team that quite frankly was so dysfunctional they shouldn't have made the Playoffs.

If you really think KG's 14/8 was so impressive, then I'm not going to argue it with you, because no matter how good his defense was (and personally I don't think a 37 year old KG is having DPOY impact anymore. Solid, yeah, but insane to think he was THAT impactful in his 29 mpg), it's not logical AT ALL to rank 2013 KG over Kobe.

Kobe was at worst, a top 10 player in the league. KG might not have been top 25 in 2013.

[colts18]

2013 Kobe though was a return to his prime, offensively at least. He had 27/6/6 on 57% TS, are you seriously telling me those aren't MVP level numbers? He put up an insane number of monster performances on a team that quite frankly was so dysfunctional they shouldn't have made the Playoffs.

If you really think KG's 14/8 was so impressive, then I'm not going to argue it with you, because no matter how good his defense was (and personally I don't think a 37 year old KG is having DPOY impact anymore. Solid, yeah, but insane to think he was THAT impactful in his 29 mpg), it's not logical AT ALL to rank 2013 KG over Kobe.

Kobe was at worst, a top 10 player in the league. KG might not have been top 25 in 2013.

Kobe is only ahead of KG in 2013 because games missed/MP not because of playing level. You can't give Kobe credit for propping up a "dysfunctional" team because he was a big reason why it was dysfunctional. There is no reason why a top 10 player and Dwight Howard together shouldn't put up more than 45 wins. Part of the reason why they didn't win more games was due to Kobe's awful defense.

Why did the 13 Celtics have comparable team success to Kobe's team despite having much less talent?

On court Net +/- per 100 poss:
KG: +2.5
Kobe: +2.3

When KG was on the court, the Celtics played better than when Kobe was on the court for the Lakers. That is despite the Lakers having more talent than the Celtics.


2013 KG did have DPOY caliber impact when he was playing.

On Court D rating: 99.3
Off court D rating: 108.3

That 99.3 D rating would have been the #1 in the league while the 108.3 D rating figure is the equivalent of the 25th ranked defense.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Why did the 13 Celtics have comparable team success to Kobe's team despite having much less talent?

They're called injuries.