'15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[Jim Naismith]

Man, people would crucify LeBron if he lost that series.

[bondom34]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/si_nba/status/723512139508514816[/tweet]

[Dr Spaceman]

MIP is a weird award. I feel like there's a lot of collective pressure to not vote for already great players, ie. it's a path function, not a state function. I have no qualms voting for Steph Curry, who I think actually made the largest magnitude improvement from last year.

Matthew Dellevadova is a guy who should be on more people's radar. Last playoffs he wasn't even an NBA level ball handler, and this year (I'll be careful how I word this) the Cavaliers' best lineups involve him at PG. He's become a positive pick and roll player and he's definitely a catch and shoot threat. His defense has taken a pretty huge leap as well, probably his most important trait.

[bondom34]

Good call on Delly, didn't even think of him honestly. I think McCollum earned it, and part of me didn't feel like Curry was in the spirit of what the award really is, and was sort of the trendy/cute pick. For me its more an award of guys who went from average/good to pretty great, or at least a lesser player who made gigantic strides like Giannis or Crowder.

[Texas Chuck]

and part of me didn't feel like Curry was in the spirit of what the award really is, and was sort of the trendy/cute pick.

Agree 100%. It felt like guys trying to be the smartest guy in the room a bit with all the Steph stuff. I mean he had a great year, but he was truly great last year. The only real significant difference this year is the amplified volume of the 3's and he's been a bit more consistently defensively. People got all wrapped up in the team success and his huge start, but when you look at the season as a whole I find it very difficult to justify giving the award to him.

I mean on his own team Draymond is far more deserving imo as someone who really raised their overall level of play more.

[colts18]

They should revoke the ballots of anyone who voted for Isaiah Thomas for MIP.

[therealbig3]

Ok, so something that's been on my mind, with regards to Green and Curry...this is more directed towards the Green believers...

-What exactly is the argument against Green for #1 this year?

-I've seen people say that just because he has a better +/-, doesn't mean he's better than Curry...why not? Isn't the point of the game to help your team in whatever way possible? And if the +/- for Green is really because he's that good, why doesn't that mean he's the better player? And I guess to reiterate the first question, why doesn't that mean he's the best in the NBA this year? Why isn't he in the conversation for GOAT peak (not a joke, I'm honestly asking...if he's that good that he's better than peak Curry, and he's putting up an RAPM that's up there with pretty much anything we've ever seen, what stops him from being in the conversation)?

[Dr Positivity]

My problem with that is that Green and Curry's minutes overlap so much, that any +/- or APM information saying Green > Curry, is based off way too SSS. Green has only played like 350 minutes without Curry this year and Curry 240 without Green. +/- suggests Curry and Green together is GOAT caliber but I don't think it's that useful for Curry vs Green individually

[lorak]

Curry and Green situation reassembles Rose vs Deng in 2011. Of course Curry is better than Derrick, but Drymond is better than Deng too. And people back then also had problems with accepting that Rose wasn't more important player.

[lorak]

My problem with that is that Green and Curry's minutes overlap so much, that any +/- or APM information saying Green > Curry, is based off way too SSS. Green has only played like 350 minutes without Curry this year and Curry 240 without Green. +/- suggests Curry and Green together is GOAT caliber but I don't think it's that useful for Curry vs Green individually

That's not "only xx minutes". That's almost 600 minutes of data, in other words about 12 full games (and many of you love wowy, where even smaller samples are used to draw conclusions) or about 1000 possessions. That's A LOT of information and - what's important - it's consistent with other data points, while at the same time you don't have anything (data) against it except of some speculations (like "games without Curry are more important than off court data" in other thread).

[therealbig3]

Curry and Green situation reassembles Rose vs Deng in 2011. Of course Curry is better than Derrick, but Drymond is better than Deng too. And people back then also had problems with accepting that Rose wasn't more important player.

Then what's your response to my questions? I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, I'm honestly curious. How far should we go with the numbers that back Green?

Isn't more important player the same thing as better player? If not, why?

Should Green be ranked over Curry for POY?

Should Green be considered as having one of the ATG peaks if he should be considered better than Curry (who at minimum, had an amazing year that is at least around the top 10-15 peaks of all time)?

[lorak]

I've said it before - what Green is doing was never done before. That combination of impact from DPOTY level defense, elite playmaking and spacing from PF/C position has to be VERY valuable in all time sense (if PF/C has only spacing ability that's enough to make him positive player on offense; add playmaking to that and such player is one of the best offensive guys in the NBA). Hey, even Kerr thinks he needs Green more than Curry as he plays him the most minutes. Really, how many times in history worse player played more MPG on championship team?

[Dr Spaceman]

Curry and Green situation reassembles Rose vs Deng in 2011. Of course Curry is better than Derrick, but Drymond is better than Deng too. And people back then also had problems with accepting that Rose wasn't more important player.

Not exactly the same though. That Bulls team was actually pretty close to average offensively, while defensively they were one of the best of the era. Based on that its not hard to say the guy who had the biggest impact on D was the better player.

Warriors are different in that they have the GOAT offense. Still a great defense, but if they're special on one side of the ball it's offense.

[Dr Spaceman]

My problem with that is that Green and Curry's minutes overlap so much, that any +/- or APM information saying Green > Curry, is based off way too SSS. Green has only played like 350 minutes without Curry this year and Curry 240 without Green. +/- suggests Curry and Green together is GOAT caliber but I don't think it's that useful for Curry vs Green individually

That's not "only xx minutes". That's almost 600 minutes of data, in other words about 12 full games (and many of you love wowy, where even smaller samples are used to draw conclusions) or about 1000 possessions. That's A LOT of information and - what's important - it's consistent with other data points, while at the same time you don't have anything (data) against it except of some speculations (like "games without Curry are more important than off court data" in other thread).

Re: games more important than minutes; what's wrong with that? Obviously if teams know Curry won't play they can adjust their schemes to counter what the Warriors do have (eg Green). If Curry's just sitting on the bench for a few minutes it's hard to say we learn anything all that valuable about how they'd play without Curry over the stretch of a full season.

[lorak]

Re: games more important than minutes; what's wrong with that? Obviously if teams know Curry won't play they can adjust their schemes to counter what the Warriors do have (eg Green). If Curry's just sitting on the bench for a few minutes it's hard to say we learn anything all that valuable about how they'd play without Curry over the stretch of a full season.

There's no evidence that teams defend differently in games without Curry than during the time he is on the bench. So throwing up massive amount of data is irrational. Besides off data shows, that without Curry Green for example shots much worse in RA,what might means, that even during those short spans when Curry is on the bench teams adjust defenses, because with Livingston on the court spacing is much worse. That's also kind of problem how to separate Curry's positive impact from Livingston's negative.

[HeartBreakKid]

CP3 is having the best post season so far with Curry out on injury. His decision making is scary good against Portland, both sides of the ball he's playing like a robot or something.

8.3 assist on only 1.3 TOV!? He's averaging 26.3 ppg on 58 TS% and he's playing incredibly tenacious perimeter defense, his motor is the most underrated part of his game, the type of trap defense the Clippers use take so much energy.

Kawhi's near 5x5 game deserves a shout out too, but it's hard to take the Grizzlies seriously.

[Mutnt]

Way too early too be throwing out flowers at people's feet, just one bad game on such a small sample size can drastically change the outlook. We still have guys like Whiteside & Deng, Kanter & Ibaka having some ridiculously hot games that are making them look like Gods.

But yeah, as far as clear star players, CP3 and Kawhi have been playing very very good so far. Also Westbrook and Paul George.

[HeartBreakKid]

Way too early too be throwing out flowers at people's feet, just one bad game on such a small sample size can drastically change the outlook. We still have guys like Whiteside & Deng, Kanter & Ibaka having some ridiculously hot games that are making them look like Gods.

But yeah, as far as clear star players, CP3 and Kawhi have been playing very very good so far. Also Westbrook and Paul George.

Yeah George has been playing out of his mind also, his defense has been tight as hell.

[Dr Spaceman]

So a couple questions for those who are staunchly against Draymond being considered:

1. How good of a scorer would you need to put next to Draymond in order to be confident he could lead your team to the postseason? 55+ wins? Title contention?
2. How does Draymond compare to peak Jasoin Kidd for you?

[Doctor MJ]

A question coming to my mind now:

When would the Warriors dominating without Curry really start to change how you saw Green and others?

Them doing what they're doing to Houston doesn't change things that much for me because Houston isn't simply mediocre, but is also in a dark place. But if the Warriors could destroy a healthy Clipper team without Curry that would blow my hair back.