2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[therealbig3]

If Jerami Grant is doing this to him? What is he doing to him? Kawhi absolutely cooked Denver’s defense literally the game before.

Denver did a great job of making things tough on him, but he was also missing shots that he’s hit with regularity thus far in the playoffs. Wouldn’t act like Denver all of a sudden figured him out.

[70sFan]

Kawhi had one poor shootimg night and people overreact. I don't think it's sustainable, Leonard would be Leonard against any team. You can slow him down, but you can't figure out a player like him.

[Dupp]

AD surging imo.

[MyUniBroDavis]

AD surging imo.

ADs probably been the best player throughout the playoffs so far

Defensively, i dont see how someone can say hes not been the best defender in the playoffs. The argument for his defense veing overrated in the regular season basically hinges on plus minus metrics that point him as a moderate positive instead of a DPOY level type guy, but the caveats (from what i know, might be mistaken for some of these) are that single year npi rapm is quite noisy and isnt really crazy accurate or predictive, the nba was shortened so smaller sample size so more noise, and AD wasnt trying on D in 2019 because of chemistry stuff. Otoh, we know he has a very high defensive iq, has a high motor, rarely makes mistakes, is integral to the lakers scheme on defense, and is among the most versatile defenders in the league, so given the evidence id say him being a top 5 RS defender and the best defender in the playoffs isnt too farfetched (i get that plus minus metrics are impoetant and might show you are missing something, but other than the fact that small ball davis at center lineups are mostly played with rondo, and minutes without rondo are so scarce that they prolly arent properly represented for davis and are seen as a bron thing, i think theres a difference between looking for something because of it, and making things up that dint happen on the court to justify it)

But defensivey in the playoffs him not being the best defender so far isnt particularly arguable imo, i think hes performing at an all time level on that end actually, so youd have to point to his offense, which has been utterly dominant

Alot of his buckets have come from him creating his own shot, hitting tough buckets when the offense stagnates, which adds more value to the shot

Atm hes averaged 30-10-4 on 66% TS on offense and has been a decent facilitator for a big man as well. Keep in mind while this rockets team should be easy pickings for him in theory, theyre packing the paint and doubling him wheb he gets his back to the basket (and they do this really well, they were actuallt one of the top teams in post defense this year)

Right now im pretty comfortable saying the top 4 are some mixture of

Lebron/giannis/kawhi/harden

I dont really see how davis's playoff run, thus far at least, hasnt put him in consideration with the other 4. I think hes definately outperformed lebron this series, and the last series they were probably both the best guys in the first round in their good games other than mitchell and murray. They were both incredible defensively, davis more so but lebron defended like a best perimeter defender in the league type of guy at times

Hardens been amazing, but alot of that comes down to his function within the team and the lakers being inept at doing rotations in game 1 and for half of game 2

Kawhis been incredibly consistent as well, had a bad game but you probably could argue he was the best first round player as well

Giannis has kind of crapped the bed against the heat although idk if its limitations on him as a player or a role thing ir an overall offensive execution thing

I think its fair to say whoever wins the championship probably wins the POY vote

I do think that clear DPOY-level defense, along with hyper effecient offense, which mostly has come from timely buckets when possessions have stagnated (keep in mind that outside of lebron the lakers dont really have playmaking anyways) does

Keep in mind davis only is averaging 1.6 turnovers a game. Hes been assisted on 56% of his buckets inside the arc (keep in mind davis isos arent methodical and often quick hitters which would count as assists) which is the same amount as big men like jokic (garnett was assisted on more, it was about the same as duncan give or take)

I think offensively hes probably been better than jokic all things considered. While obviously jokic had a tougher matchup round 1, theres just been such a consistency gap. Not neccessarily than jokic has been inconsistent, far from it hes been great and offensively has been up there in terms of offensive performance, but outside of a game 3 injury where he was held out as a precaution (while up by a blowout, being a +37, 18-5-5 on 8 shots and 10 free throws in 17 minutes) hes been dominant every game, and hasnt scored less than 25 points or shot less than 60% from the field. He also has 11 and ones in 7 games. For comparison, harden has 9 in 9 games.

Realtisically it isnt sustainable.

Also while the rockets are small, keep in mind that on defense theyre very adept at shrinking the floor. Outside of 5 out lineups that the lakers dont run much anyway (that davis could run/be a part of though) they play in a way that the paint is always packed, and its not really easy to pass it to open shooters because of how adept they are at cutting off passing lanes (even bron has struggled) when ur in a 4 out 1 in and not positioned the right ways

All things considered, my current standings would be

Lebron
Kawhi
Harden
Giannis
Davis

I fully think the rockets might win the series though

[Dupp]

Davis always looked like he was gonna be the best defender in the league come post season this year. The only other guy I thought could challenge him is Giannis. He’s just too versatile and excels everywhere. Where as guys like goober and Joel do have weaknesses.

Versatility really comes into play a lot more in the playoffs where as elite rim protection like we see from goober doesn’t quite create the defensive gap it does in the regular season.

Davis however “have it all” and his tools are translating to the post season seamlessly.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Davis always looked like he was gonna be the best defender in the league come post season this year. The only other guy I thought could challenge him is Giannis. He’s just too versatile and excels everywhere. Where as guys like goober and Joel do have weaknesses.

Versatility really comes into play a lot more in the playoffs where as elite rim protection like we see from goober doesn’t quite create the defensive gap it does in the regular season.

Davis however “have it all” and his tools are translating to the post season seamlessly.

It is interesting though. He had a good regular season but was clearly below those 4 guys. But if he keeps this postseason run up, how would this season be regarded?

Hes not getting particularly easier buckets than he did with the pels, lebrons playmaking is outweighed by the complete lack of playmaking by the rest of the team, and a pretty meh offensive system

But i mean if we break it down

Hes been the DPOY of the postseason by a pretty clear amount imo. And offensively I dont see why this postseason wouldnt be up there with ATG big man postseasons. Hes been good at passing, maybe great even for a big man, which was a big weakness originally. His scoring has been beyond ATG for a big man, and the shots he gets arent the type that you can chalk up to not being as focused on by the D.

Sure scoring has become more effecient overall but that holds more true for perimeter guys than inside scorers, at least in terms of extent.

So it becomes interesting. If we assume playoff davis is a thing (im in doubt if this is just a hot streak still), then what we have here is, in terms of a numbers standpoint (not box score only, but also in terms of the difficulty of shots he tKes relative to others) we have a big man whose scoring at a rate not just a bit above, but on a completely different level than his fellow big men, whose been the DPOY by, in my opinion, some margin, whose a fairly adept passer (i havent looked at his passing that much so i think fairly adept should be fair).

The main knock people seem to have against davis is you cant run an offense through him, but you have to keep in mind lebrons the only competent pick and roll threat on the team. Yes, a great one, but the fact that they dont have any nba average calibre guys outside of that in that regard, means that youre essentially telling a guy to run an offene with a huge limitation, which is like telling harden to run an offense without competent shooters, along with weak coaching from an offensive perspective.

The closest weve seen to one is the 2018 pelicans post cousins injury. They were a top 10 offense post mirotic trade (8th i think), and even this team was hardly a perfect roster (for starters, they had rondo, except instead of playing 20 minutes a game like he does now he played 26 minutes a game, and second of all post mirotic trade inly 2 of their players shot above 34% from three).

Essentially, people are taking a guy, and rather than build a cast around him that enhances his strengths, you build a cast around him that hinder them, and conclude he cant run an offense from that because it was 8th in the league (and this is a extremely inferior davis)

So if we change that to, we dont have conclusive evidence that davis can run an offense, what we have is a DPOY big man, who scoring wise in terms of effeciency + volume has been an outlier

(To put it in perspective, hes outscoring 1977 kareem per 36, on greater effeciency)

Obviously, a chunk of this is era and you can compare per 36 like that. But its important to note that when you compare effeciencies of actual bigs today (so ignoring giys like tatum as pf or harrell, non small ball bigs or pf that play like perimeter guys), the effeciency difference isnt that big from the 70s inside the arc

When you take the top 5 scoring bigs for certain years(for 1977 i just did centers, since idk anything about the 70s sorry 70sfan lol, for 1995 i put the top 5 big men scorers, for 2020 i did 6ft10+, except giannis for obv reasons).

2020
Davis 54.6%
Embiid 51.7%
Porzingis 48.4%
Jokic 59.4%
Vucevic 53.4%

2003
Shaq 57.4%
Dirk 49.3%
Duncan 51.7%
Garnett 51.4%
Webber 46.5%

1995
Shaq 58.5%
Hakeem 52.0%
David robinson 53.3%
Malone 54%
Ewing 50.6%

1977
Kareem 57.4%
Bob mcadoo 51.2%
Bob Lanier 53.4%
Issel 51.5%
Gulmore 52.2%

Im not sayint 2020 is as hard as the 70s for big men effeciency or that davis>kareem. Alot of it is big guys shooting more middies now (this is inside the arc only, so threes arent a convuluting factor though to be clear). Also defenses are more willing to give up the post up

but I am saying the nature of davis being this hyper effecient isnt really the same way how perimeter guys are hyper effecient now, where you have multiple guys shooting in the mid-high 50s inside the arc, whereas in the 90s it was mid-high 40s to low 50s, in the 70s and 2000s it was mid-high 40s. Ive kind of maintained that early 2000s were hardest for offensive players, rules mitigated that a but not fully for certain playstyles.

But i think if davis continues to do what hes been doing itll be special, considering hes doing dpoy shenanigans on top of it, in terms of a playoff run.

Oh, and to add one more thing. The defense he is facing against the rockets is kind of odd in terms of the impact on his individual play. Now, there are avenues from a schematic perspective where davis could average something like 35 shooting 80% or something stupid like that, but whats important to note is that the lakers havent done that, so for the most part the things that have given the rockets success against big men that shouldnt apply against davis has applied, so in a weird twisted way hes going against a strong post defense

[yoyoboy]

Slight tangent but if he wanted to, LeBron could honestly blow everybody away in terms of career value. It's just absurd what he's still doing at this age and I could really see him still providing All-Star level impact in the playoffs when he's 41-42 if he actually plays that long. The guy just keeps finding new ways to compensate for his lessening physical abilities and his reading of the game just keeps getting better.

My POY ranking right now is:

1. LeBron
2. Giannis
3. Harden
4. Kawhi
5. Davis
6. Doncic

And then I'd have to really think about who comes next. Some order of Jokic, Tatum, CP3, Lowry, Lillard, and Butler would be next.

[MisterHibachi]

Slight tangent but if he wanted to, LeBron could honestly blow everybody away in terms of career value. It's just absurd what he's still doing at this age and I could really see him still providing All-Star level impact in the playoffs when he's 41-42 if he actually plays that long. The guy just keeps finding new ways to compensate for his lessening physical abilities and his reading of the game just keeps getting better.

My POY ranking right now is:

1. LeBron
2. Giannis
3. Harden
4. Kawhi
5. Davis
6. Doncic

And then I'd have to really think about who comes next. Some order of Jokic, Tatum, CP3, Lowry, Lillard, and Butler would be next.

What's Harden's argument over Kawhi?

[GSP]

Im struggling to see Giannis ahead of Harden, Kawhi or Ad at this point. He had too dominant an Rs to be out of top 5 but man it really couldnt have gone any worse for him in this series

His playoff numbers look respectable but im not sure if the Magic series should even have any value. They were missing arguably their 3 best defenders and 2 of them in Gordon and Isaac wouldve been matched up on Giannis most often

[70sFan]

Slight tangent but if he wanted to, LeBron could honestly blow everybody away in terms of career value. It's just absurd what he's still doing at this age and I could really see him still providing All-Star level impact in the playoffs when he's 41-42 if he actually plays that long. The guy just keeps finding new ways to compensate for his lessening physical abilities and his reading of the game just keeps getting better.

My POY ranking right now is:

1. LeBron
2. Giannis
3. Harden
4. Kawhi
5. Davis
6. Doncic

And then I'd have to really think about who comes next. Some order of Jokic, Tatum, CP3, Lowry, Lillard, and Butler would be next.

What's Harden's argument over Kawhi?

Much better regular season. Basically the same argument Giannis has over Kawhi.

[therealbig3]

I'll freely admit I might be over-reacting, but I don't really mind, because I want to know which players give me the best chances at making a championship run, and I just can't put Giannis in the top 5 in good conscience when I consider that. I think his RS numbers are inflated because of the system that the Bucks run, and that his problems in the PS are way too real to ignore in comparison to the other elite players around the league.

1. LeBron
2. Kawhi
3. Luka
4. Harden
5. Davis

HM: Giannis, Butler, Jokic, Tatum, Lillard, CP3, Lowry

Davis and Harden with legitimate opportunities to move up in comparison to Luka.

[therealbig3]

Spoiler:

AD surging imo.

ADs probably been the best player throughout the playoffs so far

Defensively, i dont see how someone can say hes not been the best defender in the playoffs. The argument for his defense veing overrated in the regular season basically hinges on plus minus metrics that point him as a moderate positive instead of a DPOY level type guy, but the caveats (from what i know, might be mistaken for some of these) are that single year npi rapm is quite noisy and isnt really crazy accurate or predictive, the nba was shortened so smaller sample size so more noise, and AD wasnt trying on D in 2019 because of chemistry stuff. Otoh, we know he has a very high defensive iq, has a high motor, rarely makes mistakes, is integral to the lakers scheme on defense, and is among the most versatile defenders in the league, so given the evidence id say him being a top 5 RS defender and the best defender in the playoffs isnt too farfetched (i get that plus minus metrics are impoetant and might show you are missing something, but other than the fact that small ball davis at center lineups are mostly played with rondo, and minutes without rondo are so scarce that they prolly arent properly represented for davis and are seen as a bron thing, i think theres a difference between looking for something because of it, and making things up that dint happen on the court to justify it)

But defensivey in the playoffs him not being the best defender so far isnt particularly arguable imo, i think hes performing at an all time level on that end actually, so youd have to point to his offense, which has been utterly dominant

Alot of his buckets have come from him creating his own shot, hitting tough buckets when the offense stagnates, which adds more value to the shot

Atm hes averaged 30-10-4 on 66% TS on offense and has been a decent facilitator for a big man as well. Keep in mind while this rockets team should be easy pickings for him in theory, theyre packing the paint and doubling him wheb he gets his back to the basket (and they do this really well, they were actuallt one of the top teams in post defense this year)

Right now im pretty comfortable saying the top 4 are some mixture of

Lebron/giannis/kawhi/harden

I dont really see how davis's playoff run, thus far at least, hasnt put him in consideration with the other 4. I think hes definately outperformed lebron this series, and the last series they were probably both the best guys in the first round in their good games other than mitchell and murray. They were both incredible defensively, davis more so but lebron defended like a best perimeter defender in the league type of guy at times

Hardens been amazing, but alot of that comes down to his function within the team and the lakers being inept at doing rotations in game 1 and for half of game 2

Kawhis been incredibly consistent as well, had a bad game but you probably could argue he was the best first round player as well

Giannis has kind of crapped the bed against the heat although idk if its limitations on him as a player or a role thing ir an overall offensive execution thing

I think its fair to say whoever wins the championship probably wins the POY vote

I do think that clear DPOY-level defense, along with hyper effecient offense, which mostly has come from timely buckets when possessions have stagnated (keep in mind that outside of lebron the lakers dont really have playmaking anyways) does

Keep in mind davis only is averaging 1.6 turnovers a game. Hes been assisted on 56% of his buckets inside the arc (keep in mind davis isos arent methodical and often quick hitters which would count as assists) which is the same amount as big men like jokic (garnett was assisted on more, it was about the same as duncan give or take)

I think offensively hes probably been better than jokic all things considered. While obviously jokic had a tougher matchup round 1, theres just been such a consistency gap. Not neccessarily than jokic has been inconsistent, far from it hes been great and offensively has been up there in terms of offensive performance, but outside of a game 3 injury where he was held out as a precaution (while up by a blowout, being a +37, 18-5-5 on 8 shots and 10 free throws in 17 minutes) hes been dominant every game, and hasnt scored less than 25 points or shot less than 60% from the field. He also has 11 and ones in 7 games. For comparison, harden has 9 in 9 games.

Realtisically it isnt sustainable.

Also while the rockets are small, keep in mind that on defense theyre very adept at shrinking the floor. Outside of 5 out lineups that the lakers dont run much anyway (that davis could run/be a part of though) they play in a way that the paint is always packed, and its not really easy to pass it to open shooters because of how adept they are at cutting off passing lanes (even bron has struggled) when ur in a 4 out 1 in and not positioned the right ways

All things considered, my current standings would be

Lebron
Kawhi
Harden
Giannis
Davis

I fully think the rockets might win the series though

What about Bam? I think he's been outstanding defensively as well.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Spoiler:

AD surging imo.

ADs probably been the best player throughout the playoffs so far

Defensively, i dont see how someone can say hes not been the best defender in the playoffs. The argument for his defense veing overrated in the regular season basically hinges on plus minus metrics that point him as a moderate positive instead of a DPOY level type guy, but the caveats (from what i know, might be mistaken for some of these) are that single year npi rapm is quite noisy and isnt really crazy accurate or predictive, the nba was shortened so smaller sample size so more noise, and AD wasnt trying on D in 2019 because of chemistry stuff. Otoh, we know he has a very high defensive iq, has a high motor, rarely makes mistakes, is integral to the lakers scheme on defense, and is among the most versatile defenders in the league, so given the evidence id say him being a top 5 RS defender and the best defender in the playoffs isnt too farfetched (i get that plus minus metrics are impoetant and might show you are missing something, but other than the fact that small ball davis at center lineups are mostly played with rondo, and minutes without rondo are so scarce that they prolly arent properly represented for davis and are seen as a bron thing, i think theres a difference between looking for something because of it, and making things up that dint happen on the court to justify it)

But defensivey in the playoffs him not being the best defender so far isnt particularly arguable imo, i think hes performing at an all time level on that end actually, so youd have to point to his offense, which has been utterly dominant

Alot of his buckets have come from him creating his own shot, hitting tough buckets when the offense stagnates, which adds more value to the shot

Atm hes averaged 30-10-4 on 66% TS on offense and has been a decent facilitator for a big man as well. Keep in mind while this rockets team should be easy pickings for him in theory, theyre packing the paint and doubling him wheb he gets his back to the basket (and they do this really well, they were actuallt one of the top teams in post defense this year)

Right now im pretty comfortable saying the top 4 are some mixture of

Lebron/giannis/kawhi/harden

I dont really see how davis's playoff run, thus far at least, hasnt put him in consideration with the other 4. I think hes definately outperformed lebron this series, and the last series they were probably both the best guys in the first round in their good games other than mitchell and murray. They were both incredible defensively, davis more so but lebron defended like a best perimeter defender in the league type of guy at times

Hardens been amazing, but alot of that comes down to his function within the team and the lakers being inept at doing rotations in game 1 and for half of game 2

Kawhis been incredibly consistent as well, had a bad game but you probably could argue he was the best first round player as well

Giannis has kind of crapped the bed against the heat although idk if its limitations on him as a player or a role thing ir an overall offensive execution thing

I think its fair to say whoever wins the championship probably wins the POY vote

I do think that clear DPOY-level defense, along with hyper effecient offense, which mostly has come from timely buckets when possessions have stagnated (keep in mind that outside of lebron the lakers dont really have playmaking anyways) does

Keep in mind davis only is averaging 1.6 turnovers a game. Hes been assisted on 56% of his buckets inside the arc (keep in mind davis isos arent methodical and often quick hitters which would count as assists) which is the same amount as big men like jokic (garnett was assisted on more, it was about the same as duncan give or take)

I think offensively hes probably been better than jokic all things considered. While obviously jokic had a tougher matchup round 1, theres just been such a consistency gap. Not neccessarily than jokic has been inconsistent, far from it hes been great and offensively has been up there in terms of offensive performance, but outside of a game 3 injury where he was held out as a precaution (while up by a blowout, being a +37, 18-5-5 on 8 shots and 10 free throws in 17 minutes) hes been dominant every game, and hasnt scored less than 25 points or shot less than 60% from the field. He also has 11 and ones in 7 games. For comparison, harden has 9 in 9 games.

Realtisically it isnt sustainable.

Also while the rockets are small, keep in mind that on defense theyre very adept at shrinking the floor. Outside of 5 out lineups that the lakers dont run much anyway (that davis could run/be a part of though) they play in a way that the paint is always packed, and its not really easy to pass it to open shooters because of how adept they are at cutting off passing lanes (even bron has struggled) when ur in a 4 out 1 in and not positioned the right ways

All things considered, my current standings would be

Lebron
Kawhi
Harden
Giannis
Davis

I fully think the rockets might win the series though

What about Bam? I think he's been outstanding defensively as well.

I havent seem much of the bucks series, but that could be a shout, although i feel theyve just been building a wall liek the raptors did right? Otoh the fact that it takes a team effort to stop giannis doesnt change that bams doing great

I think my main point is i think davis is defending better than giannis did in the regular season

Bam might be too tho

[yoyoboy]

Slight tangent but if he wanted to, LeBron could honestly blow everybody away in terms of career value. It's just absurd what he's still doing at this age and I could really see him still providing All-Star level impact in the playoffs when he's 41-42 if he actually plays that long. The guy just keeps finding new ways to compensate for his lessening physical abilities and his reading of the game just keeps getting better.

My POY ranking right now is:

1. LeBron
2. Giannis
3. Harden
4. Kawhi
5. Davis
6. Doncic

And then I'd have to really think about who comes next. Some order of Jokic, Tatum, CP3, Lowry, Lillard, and Butler would be next.

What's Harden's argument over Kawhi?

For one, slightly better regular season imo in addition to playing 11 more games. Harden’s ability to shoulder an enormous load continues to blow my mind. By the box score as well as the all-in-one impact metrics like PIPM, RAPTOR, and RPM, there’s nothing suggesting Kawhi’s been clearly better and Harden actually seems to have the advantage. But once you throw in the fact that Harden is on a team that’s dependent on him creating virtually every time down the floor, while all they have to do is basically catch and shoot or attack a close out and make the extra pass once the defense scrambles, and then you consider that their small offensive responsibilities allows them to play the crazy energized defense they do on the other end (which is especially showing itself in these playoffs) and I gotta take Harden. Kawhi has the luxury of being on a team with a ton of creators which allows him to pretty much just chill barely involved in the play sometimes for minutes on end. This could even be observed last night when Kawhi spent a lot of that third quarter and the first half of the fourth quarter just letting the other guys do their thing.

And speaking of the playoffs, the narrative already seems to be forming that Kawhi is having some historic run right now and Harden is a choker but I have no clue where that’s coming from. 29/10/5 shooting on 61.4% TS, 8.3 BPM, and +7.6 on-court for Kawhi compared to 30/5/8 shooting on 64.1% TS, 10.2 BPM, and a +10.9 on-court for Harden. Kawhi also really hasn’t impressed me that much defensively so far until this series and very late in the 1st round. And I actually think Houston has had a tougher road so far dealing with OKC and LA compared to Dallas missing its 2nd most valuable player for most of the series and Denver, not to mention Harden has had to deal with his sidekick missing most of the playoffs so far (and playing like crap when he has been available).

I expect Giannis to fall in my rankings, and I could see Kawhi passing up Harden as the playoffs continue, but right now I’ve got Harden not significantly but clearly ahead. I’m shocked it seems like a consensus around here that Kawhi has had the better season so far.

[Rapcity_11]

I'll freely admit I might be over-reacting, but I don't really mind, because I want to know which players give me the best chances at making a championship run, and I just can't put Giannis in the top 5 in good conscience when I consider that. I think his RS numbers are inflated because of the system that the Bucks run, and that his problems in the PS are way too real to ignore in comparison to the other elite players around the league.

1. LeBron
2. Kawhi
3. Luka
4. Harden
5. Davis

HM: Giannis, Butler, Jokic, Tatum, Lillard, CP3, Lowry

Davis and Harden with legitimate opportunities to move up in comparison to Luka.

What do you think would happen if Giannis and AD flipped teams?

[inDe_eD]

Slight tangent but if he wanted to, LeBron could honestly blow everybody away in terms of career value. It's just absurd what he's still doing at this age and I could really see him still providing All-Star level impact in the playoffs when he's 41-42 if he actually plays that long. The guy just keeps finding new ways to compensate for his lessening physical abilities and his reading of the game just keeps getting better.

My POY ranking right now is:

1. LeBron
2. Giannis
3. Harden
4. Kawhi
5. Davis
6. Doncic

And then I'd have to really think about who comes next. Some order of Jokic, Tatum, CP3, Lowry, Lillard, and Butler would be next.

What's Harden's argument over Kawhi?

For one, slightly better regular season imo in addition to playing 11 more games. Harden’s ability to shoulder an enormous load continues to blow my mind. By the box score as well as the all-in-one impact metrics like PIPM, RAPTOR, and RPM, there’s nothing suggesting Kawhi’s been clearly better and Harden actually seems to have the advantage. But once you throw in the fact that Harden is on a team that’s dependent on him creating virtually every time down the floor, while all they have to do is basically catch and shoot or attack a close out and make the extra pass once the defense scrambles, and then you consider that their small offensive responsibilities allows them to play the crazy energized defense they do on the other end (which is especially showing itself in these playoffs) and I gotta take Harden. Kawhi has the luxury of being on a team with a ton of creators which allows him to pretty much just chill barely involved in the play sometimes for minutes on end. This could even be observed last night when Kawhi spent a lot of that third quarter and the first half of the fourth quarter just letting the other guys do their thing.

And speaking of the playoffs, the narrative already seems to be forming that Kawhi is having some historic run right now and Harden is a choker but I have no clue where that’s coming from. 29/10/5 shooting on 61.4% TS, 8.3 BPM, and +7.6 on-court for Kawhi compared to 30/5/8 shooting on 64.1% TS, 10.2 BPM, and a +10.9 on-court for Harden. Kawhi also really hasn’t impressed me that much defensively so far until this series and very late in the 1st round. And I actually think Houston has had a tougher road so far dealing with OKC and LA compared to Dallas missing its 2nd most valuable player for most of the series and Denver, not to mention Harden has had to deal with his sidekick missing most of the playoffs so far (and playing like crap when he has been available).

I expect Giannis to fall in my rankings, and I could see Kawhi passing up Harden as the playoffs continue, but right now I’ve got Harden not significantly but clearly ahead. I’m shocked it seems like a consensus around here that Kawhi has had the better season so far.

Big Kawhi fan, and i think you're right. Harden, while not performing as well in the PS, still has a slight lead on Kawhi. I think the expectation is that Kawhi will have a deeper playoff run, and maybe win the whole thing, and harden will lose to the Lakers. But, it's not fair at this point to say that Kawhi has had a better year, because as of right now, he hasn't.

[Doctor MJ]

What do you think would happen if Giannis and AD flipped teams?

So I'm avoiding making a list right now - I'll make one after all 2nd round series are complete. I do this in part to keep from overreacting. Regardless, what that means is that on my last list Giannis was way ahead of AD, and I'm answering right now still from that perspective:

I see Giannis as a FAAAAR worse fit next to LeBron than AD. Basically Giannis is a guy who turned from "guy with potential" to MVP based on doing a LeBron impression with lower IQ but greater physical gifts (in transition at least). The concern always was how badly things would drop off if he had to move over to some other role, and right now, those concerns are proving well-founded.

AD by contrast is remarkably well-suited to playing the co-star to a LeBron-like alpha. Great off-ball feel, can get that alley oop, or score from distance, and he's an excellent defender in his own right.

So yeah, I think the Lakers are worse with Giannis than AD, and that's the case even if Giannis and the Bucks somehow come back, beat the Heat, and win the finals.

From POY perspective, if the Bucks do pull off that miracle, he's a clear cut #1 POY. But if they lose like this and the Lakers win the title with AD playing great, it will also be an easy choice to put AD over Giannis.

It will really only likely get tricky if the Lakers lose early too, in which case, while I prefer AD's fit, I don't think I'll be able to put to elevate him over Giannis given that Giannis was absolutely the MVP of the league in the regular season.

[No-more-rings]

What do you think would happen if Giannis and AD flipped teams?

So I'm avoiding making a list right now - I'll make one after all 2nd round series are complete. I do this in part to keep from overreacting. Regardless, what that means is that on my last list Giannis was way ahead of AD, and I'm answering right now still from that perspective:

I see Giannis as a FAAAAR worse fit next to LeBron than AD. Basically Giannis is a guy who turned from "guy with potential" to MVP based on doing a LeBron impression with lower IQ but greater physical gifts (in transition at least). The concern always was how badly things would drop off if he had to move over to some other role, and right now, those concerns are proving well-founded.

AD by contrast is remarkably well-suited to playing the co-star to a LeBron-like alpha. Great off-ball feel, can get that alley oop, or score from distance, and he's an excellent defender in his own right.

So yeah, I think the Lakers are worse with Giannis than AD, and that's the case even if Giannis and the Bucks somehow come back, beat the Heat, and win the finals.

From POY perspective, if the Bucks do pull off that miracle, he's a clear cut #1 POY. But if they lose like this and the Lakers win the title with AD playing great, it will also be an easy choice to put AD over Giannis.

It will really only likely get tricky if the Lakers lose early too, in which case, while I prefer AD's fit, I don't think I'll be able to put to elevate him over Giannis given that Giannis was absolutely the MVP of the league in the regular season.

I think most or all of us would agree that the Bucks would have a worse record with Davis than Giannis, but is it fair to say they probably wouldn't be down 3-1 if they traded places for the series?

[Dupp]

Yeah Lakers are way worse off with Giannis..



Anyway hypothetically: If Lakers keep win it all with AD and lebron playing similar levels. Lebron at a really high level and AD above that by a small but clear margin who is ahead of who in POY?

It’d be close as I think lebron had that small but clear gap over the course of the season. I think I’d maybe give AD the nod.

[Doctor MJ]

What do you think would happen if Giannis and AD flipped teams?

So I'm avoiding making a list right now - I'll make one after all 2nd round series are complete. I do this in part to keep from overreacting. Regardless, what that means is that on my last list Giannis was way ahead of AD, and I'm answering right now still from that perspective:

I see Giannis as a FAAAAR worse fit next to LeBron than AD. Basically Giannis is a guy who turned from "guy with potential" to MVP based on doing a LeBron impression with lower IQ but greater physical gifts (in transition at least). The concern always was how badly things would drop off if he had to move over to some other role, and right now, those concerns are proving well-founded.

AD by contrast is remarkably well-suited to playing the co-star to a LeBron-like alpha. Great off-ball feel, can get that alley oop, or score from distance, and he's an excellent defender in his own right.

So yeah, I think the Lakers are worse with Giannis than AD, and that's the case even if Giannis and the Bucks somehow come back, beat the Heat, and win the finals.

From POY perspective, if the Bucks do pull off that miracle, he's a clear cut #1 POY. But if they lose like this and the Lakers win the title with AD playing great, it will also be an easy choice to put AD over Giannis.

It will really only likely get tricky if the Lakers lose early too, in which case, while I prefer AD's fit, I don't think I'll be able to put to elevate him over Giannis given that Giannis was absolutely the MVP of the league in the regular season.

I think most or all of us would agree that the Bucks would have a worse record with Davis than Giannis, but is it fair to say they probably wouldn't be down 3-1 if they traded places for the series?

I mean, Davis never produced a serious contender as the man despite having a point guard in Jrue Holiday that's at least comparable to anything the Bucks have. I don't see any reason to think Davis in Milwaukee does a better job than Giannis even in a series like this.

And of course, this is where it gets tricky to rank players as if player goodness is a one-dimensional thing when it most certainly is not. But if Davis plays a great co-star for the Lakers as they win the title, he'll definitely rank ahead of Giannis or me this year. The trickier question will be how to rank Davis if the Lakers, say, lose to the Clippers in the next round.