Chris Paul 21-22 Thread

[dygaction]

You already know he will rarely get blamed due to his age.

I mean, it's not like he ever got blamed when he was younger either. It was always entirely his teammates' fault and never his, according to the popular narrative.

Because he always put up good advanced stats... Just like the other thread, CP3 to Curry is like KG to Duncan. Even though they should not be in the same sentence in terms of greatness, or winning as a basketball players, plenty of posters here believe CP3>Curry and KG at least as good as Duncan...

[Jaivl]

All backwards, as usual. Paul is getting limited for sure, but... Not that much different from his regular season numbers? Again, a victim of his own success, and the crazy expectations he created on the first round.

Read on Twitter

?t=AtRGaZ9sQcvec1ChdBOnQA&s=19

(evidence I didn't consider Paul a top 15 player on the tweet above)

Just read the general thread and my god. I've never understood that mentality of "having haters means you're successful blah blah", but seeing the vitriol when the Suns lose, damn I do understand it. Can see the foam out of y'alls mouths as you type.

And with the "Garnett stole my lunch" guy, the table is now complete!

[MartinToVaught]

Teams tend to get hated when they have lots of unlikeable players. It's why everyone's having a field day with the Sixers' loss right now, because nobody can stand Embiid or Harden (or Doc for that matter). Likewise, the Suns have CP3, Booker and Crowder. All three are notorious floppers, while CP3 and Crowder are also dirty players. Not hard to see why they're not liked. It also gets annoying when people revise history to act like they weren't gifted a free trip to the Finals last year with three straight depleted opponents. And the cherry on top is that Sarver still owns them.

[trex_8063]

Well, very predictably there's blood in the water today.

God help us if the Suns do lose game 7. The slavering critics will be like....

Spoiler:

.....probably a 5-page orgy of ugliness, glutting on a person's misfortune.


He's had a [mostly] poor series against Dallas, to be sure.

Although I am noting that the same people who are blaming/will blame Chris Paul for a loss are the same people who have claimed he's riding the coattails of his teammates. Which begs the question how he can be responsible if his performance is relatively inconsequential [compared to his (better) teammates]?
Isn't the "choke" then on.....Devin Booker?

I mean, the party line among his critics if he plays good and they win, is that it was in an inconsequential game [even if it wasn't] and/or that he was pouring on the stats when the game was already decided [even if it wasn't].

If he plays bad and they win [which has only happened ONCE in the playoffs so far], it's "see: bailed out/carried by his teammates".

And if he plays bad and they lose, well......then it's his fault.

Pick a lane, guys.

And do try not being quite so gluttonously, maliciously happy every time he loses.

[MartinToVaught]

Speaking of "glutting on a player's misfortune," I'm old enough to remember when every Clippers loss was a referendum on Blake and was proof that he needed to be traded for Melo or Kevin Love so CP3 could finally have some real help. Meanwhile, he'd get no credit for any of the wins.

CP3's fans have spent his career tearing down his teammates to prop him up. Looks like it's now Booker's turn to take all the blame so Teflon Chris doesn't have to take any of it.

[ShotCreator]

They’ll be fine. Stay home on shooters and the Mavs are solved. Everything else is mostly nonsense. Including DeAndre Ayton’s defensive instincts, or lack thereof.

[Woodsanity]

Can't give CP3 a pass for his awful play. I am a CP3 fan and he has been a huge disappointment. I expect a stinker here and there but 3 in a row? Unacceptable. If he doesn't win next game its gonna damage his legacy even if he is old at 37 years old.

[70sFan]

They’ll be fine. Stay home on shooters and the Mavs are solved. Everything else is mostly nonsense. Including DeAndre Ayton’s defensive instincts, or lack thereof.

There is nothing wrong with Ayton's defense this series.

[70sFan]

Can't give CP3 a pass for his awful play. I am a CP3 fan and he has been a huge disappointment. I expect a stinker here and there but 3 in a row? Unacceptable. If he doesn't win next game its gonna damage his legacy even if he is old at 37 years old.

Do you judge other all-time great players based on what they did at 37? I can't think of anyone else being held to such a ridiculous standard.

[ShotCreator]

They’ll be fine. Stay home on shooters and the Mavs are solved. Everything else is mostly nonsense. Including DeAndre Ayton’s defensive instincts, or lack thereof.

There is nothing wrong with Ayton's defense this series.

Except everything, I agree.

[Woodsanity]

Can't give CP3 a pass for his awful play. I am a CP3 fan and he has been a huge disappointment. I expect a stinker here and there but 3 in a row? Unacceptable. If he doesn't win next game its gonna damage his legacy even if he is old at 37 years old.

Do you judge other all-time great players based on what they did at 37? I can't think of anyone else being held to such a ridiculous standard.

Is it ridiculous. 12 pts, 5 pts, 7 pts, 13 pts. Those are his point totals for the pass 4 games. I am sure even CP3 is very angry at himself for his poor play this series. I expected him to regress to the mean but if he has another poor game that would be 5 bad games in a row! I normally say you can't make your legacy worse at 37 but 5 bad games in the playoffs in a row is too much.

[Owly]

Can't give CP3 a pass for his awful play. I am a CP3 fan and he has been a huge disappointment. I expect a stinker here and there but 3 in a row? Unacceptable. If he doesn't win next game its gonna damage his legacy even if he is old at 37 years old.

Do you judge other all-time great players based on what they did at 37? I can't think of anyone else being held to such a ridiculous standard.

No, seemingly not what they did ...

If he doesn't win

... what the team that they are on did. I struggle to read it any other way.

[70sFan]

Can't give CP3 a pass for his awful play. I am a CP3 fan and he has been a huge disappointment. I expect a stinker here and there but 3 in a row? Unacceptable. If he doesn't win next game its gonna damage his legacy even if he is old at 37 years old.

Do you judge other all-time great players based on what they did at 37? I can't think of anyone else being held to such a ridiculous standard.

Is it ridiculous. 12 pts, 5 pts, 7 pts, 13 pts. Those are his point totals for the pass 4 games. I am sure even CP3 is very angry at himself for his poor play this series. I expected him to regress to the mean but if he has another poor game that would be 5 bad games in a row! I normally say you can't make your legacy worse at 37 but 5 bad games in the playoffs in a row is too much.

He plays bad, but why should it change how you see him in his prime? He's like 4 years past his realistic prime at this point.

Do you count 1992 series against Bird (he was younger than Paul)?
How about 1998 against Barkley (he was 35)?

Take a step back and think about it. It's fine to criticize Paul for his underperformances from 2008-18 period, but in 2022? Most all-time great players were done at 37 and Paul is the victim of his own success here...

[70sFan]

They’ll be fine. Stay home on shooters and the Mavs are solved. Everything else is mostly nonsense. Including DeAndre Ayton’s defensive instincts, or lack thereof.

There is nothing wrong with Ayton's defense this series.

Except everything, I agree.

I guess we watch different series. Paul has been hunted on defense more than Ayton.

I'd say thay Ayton is Suns best, most consistent player this series if anything and Dallas have a lot of problems with him.

[sp6r=underrated]

Teams tend to get hated when they have lots of unlikeable players. It's why everyone's having a field day with the Sixers' loss right now, because nobody can stand Embiid or Harden (or Doc for that matter). Likewise, the Suns have CP3, Booker and Crowder. All three are notorious floppers, while CP3 and Crowder are also dirty players. Not hard to see why they're not liked. It also gets annoying when people revise history to act like they weren't gifted a free trip to the Finals last year with three straight depleted opponents. And the cherry on top is that Sarver still owns them.

Injuries are a component of sports. The Suns have built a deep roster able to withstand injuries. Teams like the Clippers have chosen the Studs and Duds model. The structural flaw of the Suns model is it often lacks the top flight, peak superstar who can carry a cast through a bad game. The structural flaw of teams like the Clippers is if one of your studs goes down you have to rely on duds to win.

[Owly]

Can't give CP3 a pass for his awful play. I am a CP3 fan and he has been a huge disappointment. I expect a stinker here and there but 3 in a row? Unacceptable. If he doesn't win next game its gonna damage his legacy even if he is old at 37 years old.

Do you judge other all-time great players based on what they did at 37? I can't think of anyone else being held to such a ridiculous standard.

Is it ridiculous. 12 pts, 5 pts, 7 pts, 13 pts. Those are his point totals for the pass 4 games. I am sure even CP3 is very angry at himself for his poor play this series. I expected him to regress to the mean but if he has another poor game that would be 5 bad games in a row! I normally say you can't make your legacy worse at 37 but 5 bad games in the playoffs in a row is too much.

I'm struggling to parse your argument. You would rather have a player be retired than be net substantially positive over two rounds (box composites or on-of [super noisy in a tiny and often not balanced sample, granted]) and give a solidly good team a chance at advancing to the conference finals? Surely you'd rather have that than not? Why would anyone want to play with that expectation?

His recent play has been poor. Judging a player on ppg is ... a touch antiquated, to my mind. Saying you'd regard this overall performance as legacy damaging (I think implied here, given the strength of the phrase) ... yeah I just can't see how one would get there, though I'd try to listen.

[ShotCreator]

There is nothing wrong with Ayton's defense this series.

Except everything, I agree.

I guess we watch different series. Paul has been hunted on defense more than Ayton.

I'd say thay Ayton is Suns best, most consistent player this series if anything and Dallas have a lot of problems with him.

Okay. But nothing, whether it be statistical, or analytical will back any of that up.

Though this is obvious to me through the eye test. Ayton is a complete defensive non-factor. Literally not a factor in how Dallas runs their offense, other than when he actually is hunted as you said.
But Chris Paul is a better perimeter defender than Ayton, with actual defensive instincts and acumen to guard different players and scenarios differently.

Ayton has no instinct or general approach to literally any aspect of defense I’ve seen. Completely mediocre and vanilla. He doesn’t get blocks. Or steals. He literally thrives at nothing.

Not a great defensive rebounder, box-out guy. Nothing. No skills, no intangibles.

Dallas has only struggled when he was off court in this series. The Biyombo minutes and sparing small ball lineups.

His defensive on/off is starter-worst, his RAPTOR rating is nearly neutral defensively, modest positive offensively.

He is what he is, but he’s not that good of a player. Definitely not better than Paul, or Booker, or Bridges.

His general approach to basketball is just low-leverage, and his skills and instincts don’t amplify his athleticism much.

[70sFan]

Except everything, I agree.

I guess we watch different series. Paul has been hunted on defense more than Ayton.

I'd say thay Ayton is Suns best, most consistent player this series if anything and Dallas have a lot of problems with him.

Okay. But nothing, whether it be statistical, or analytical will back any of that up.

Though this is obvious to me through the eye test. Ayton is a complete defensive non-factor. Literally not a factor in how Dallas runs their offense, other than when he actually is hunted as you said.
But Chris Paul is a better perimeter defender than Ayton, with actual defensive instincts and acumen to guard different players and scenarios differently.

Ayton has no instinct or general approach to literally any aspect of defense I’ve seen. Completely mediocre and vanilla. He doesn’t get blocks. Or steals. He literally thrives at nothing.

Not a great defensive rebounder, box-out guy. Nothing. No skills, no intangibles.

Dallas has only struggled when he was off court in this series. The Biyombo minutes and sparing small ball lineups.

His defensive on/off is starter-worst, his RAPTOR rating is nearly neutral defensively, modest positive offensively.

He is what he is, but he’s not that good of a player. Definitely not better than Paul, or Booker, or Bridges.

His general approach to basketball is just low-leverage, and his skills and instincts don’t amplify his athleticism much.

I will definitely have to rewatch some of these games, but I just don't see that. Ayton is doing a good job on switches and he is a factor inside, despite Mavs trying everything to space out Suns defense. He also hurts Mavs small-ball on the other end of the court.

[MartinToVaught]

Teams tend to get hated when they have lots of unlikeable players. It's why everyone's having a field day with the Sixers' loss right now, because nobody can stand Embiid or Harden (or Doc for that matter). Likewise, the Suns have CP3, Booker and Crowder. All three are notorious floppers, while CP3 and Crowder are also dirty players. Not hard to see why they're not liked. It also gets annoying when people revise history to act like they weren't gifted a free trip to the Finals last year with three straight depleted opponents. And the cherry on top is that Sarver still owns them.

Injuries are a component of sports. The Suns have built a deep roster able to withstand injuries. Teams like the Clippers have chosen the Studs and Duds model. The structural flaw of the Suns model is it often lacks the top flight, peak superstar who can carry a cast through a bad game. The structural flaw of teams like the Clippers is if one of your studs goes down you have to rely on duds to win.

You'd maybe have an argument if it was just the Clippers, but all three teams the Suns faced in the West were utterly destroyed by injuries and then they got exposed once they had to face a healthy team. That's not superior teambuilding, that's a team getting insanely lucky and advancing farther than they otherwise would have.

[sp6r=underrated]

but all three teams the Suns faced in the West were utterly destroyed by injuries

1. There negative PD in the finals was -2.3. Where is the exposure?
2. The Suns have already advanced farther than the 3 Western clubs you mentioned. If they were so much better than the Suns why isn't at least one of em still in contention?