Where would ‘97 MJ rank today?

[LukaTheGOAT]

People have continually used Ben Taylor's tracking of Jordan's defense from 88 and 89, as evidence that he had a fall-off on that end without giving deeper context.

Ben Taylor does believe Jordan dropped off some defensively. The missing context is that Ben Taylor has Jordan going from the GOAT defender at the SG position in his 88 and 89 seasons to "only," being one of the 3 or so best defenders ever at the SG position in 90 and 91 with only Peak Tony Allen besting him based on the Evals.

eh...citing someone's final opinion doesn't really constitute offering "deeper context" tbh. If you think there was evidence from ben's mj eval that contradicts/counters what I cited, i'm happy to hear it, but saying that he extrapolated a different conclusion than I did doesn't really mean anything inofitself

In other words, he thinks MJ's ratio of help plays decreased slightly due to a lower motor. You cited his work as an example of someone who tracked his defense, so I just wanted to add in the same tracking he still sees him as pretty close to the same defensive player.

[tsherkin]

Donovan Mitchell just scored 71 points and we are still questioning whether 1997 MJ couldn't dominate today's game. He would average 33-35 PPG easily.

I don't think most have been questioning his ability to put up significant volume, if the posts themselves are being read...

[tone wone]

Donovan Mitchell just scored 71 points and we are still questioning whether 1997 MJ couldn't dominate today's game. He would average 33-35 PPG easily.

I don't think most have been questioning his ability to put up significant volume, if the posts themselves are being read...

They must not know how bad they make MJ look when they keep comparing him to non MVP level players.

I guess '97 Jordan is somewhere between Dorozen and Mitchell.

As someone asked earlier, if MJ is no longer such outlier in scoring volume...what reason would anyone have to believe he's the best player in the league? Among thr best? Yes. Arguably the best? Sure. But the dominant player? I dunno.

1997 Mike is hardly some physical marvel so what would be draw here?

[falcolombardi]

People have continually used Ben Taylor's tracking of Jordan's defense from 88 and 89, as evidence that he had a fall-off on that end without giving deeper context.

Ben Taylor does believe Jordan dropped off some defensively. The missing context is that Ben Taylor has Jordan going from the GOAT defender at the SG position in his 88 and 89 seasons to "only," being one of the 3 or so best defenders ever at the SG position in 90 and 91 with only Peak Tony Allen besting him based on the Evals.

eh...citing someone's final opinion doesn't really constitute offering "deeper context" tbh. If you think there was evidence from ben's mj eval that contradicts/counters what I cited, i'm happy to hear it, but saying that he extrapolated a different conclusion than I did doesn't really mean anything inofitself

In other words, he thinks MJ's ratio of help plays decreased slightly due to a lower motor. You cited his work as an example of someone who tracked his defense, so I just wanted to add in the same tracking he still sees him as pretty close to the same defensive player.

What years does ben have jordan as a top 3 ever sg caliber in defense? I have been watching 92 jordan film recently and is not in that caliber imo

88-90 may be more likely but i would have to watch some jordan games with focus on defense

[70sFan]

eh...citing someone's final opinion doesn't really constitute offering "deeper context" tbh. If you think there was evidence from ben's mj eval that contradicts/counters what I cited, i'm happy to hear it, but saying that he extrapolated a different conclusion than I did doesn't really mean anything inofitself

In other words, he thinks MJ's ratio of help plays decreased slightly due to a lower motor. You cited his work as an example of someone who tracked his defense, so I just wanted to add in the same tracking he still sees him as pretty close to the same defensive player.

What years does ben have jordan as a top 3 ever sg caliber in defense? I have been watching 92 jordan film recently and is not in that caliber imo

88-90 may be more likely but i would have to watch some jordan games with focus on defense

What SGs would you take defensively over 1992 Jordan? Have you studied them this hard as well?

I'm asking this because sometimes when you study player's tendencies really hard you start to see more and more weaknesses. It may give you the idea that this player is overrated, but you have to keep in mind that you have to do the same process for all great defenders.

[falcolombardi]

In other words, he thinks MJ's ratio of help plays decreased slightly due to a lower motor. You cited his work as an example of someone who tracked his defense, so I just wanted to add in the same tracking he still sees him as pretty close to the same defensive player.

What years does ben have jordan as a top 3 ever sg caliber in defense? I have been watching 92 jordan film recently and is not in that caliber imo

88-90 may be more likely but i would have to watch some jordan games with focus on defense

What SGs would you take defensively over 1992 Jordan? Have you studied them this hard as well?

I'm asking this because sometimes when you study player's tendencies really hard you start to see more and more weaknesses. It may give you the idea that this player is overrated, but you have to keep in mind that you have to do the same process for all great defenders.

Of guards i have watched enough to be confident in this view

Tony allen

Peak wade

Bulls Jimmy butler

Jason kidd (pg but plays like a sg in defense a ton)

There is also sidney moncrief who i have not watched much film of yet but including him from rep as probable

If we expand it to guards in general who "play point guard" in defense i would add jrue holliday, frazier as strong options

Then there are the odd cases of big players who played guard in defense like andre roberson or ben simmons who i would handily take over jordan for D

[Mazter]

Michael Adams, 5-10, 160 pounds, 3rd round pick, scored 54 in 1991. Yet here we are complaining about Donovan Michell in 2023.

[tsherkin]

Michael Adams, 5-10, 160 pounds, 3rd round pick, scored 54 in 1991. Yet here we are complaining about Donovan Michell in 2023.

David Thompson, 6'4 (but wild-ass hops; they didn't call him Skywalker for nothing) posted 73 in 1978.

[mysticOscar]

Michael Adams, 5-10, 160 pounds, 3rd round pick, scored 54 in 1991. Yet here we are complaining about Donovan Michell in 2023.

I'll raise you with Isaiah Thomas who was shorter and drafted late in 2nd rd who scored multiple 50pt and 40pt games and nearly nabbed the league score leader...and this was a few years ago

[tsherkin]

Michael Adams, 5-10, 160 pounds, 3rd round pick, scored 54 in 1991. Yet here we are complaining about Donovan Michell in 2023.

I'll raise you with Isaiah Thomas who was shorter and drafted late in 2nd rd who scored multiple 50pt and 40pt games and nearly nabbed the league score leader...and this was a few years ago

I add Tiny Archibald's 34 ppg season in 1973 and 30 ppg from World B Free in 1980.

[falcolombardi]

Michael Adams, 5-10, 160 pounds, 3rd round pick, scored 54 in 1991. Yet here we are complaining about Donovan Michell in 2023.

I'll raise you with Isaiah Thomas who was shorter and drafted late in 2nd rd who scored multiple 50pt and 40pt games and nearly nabbed the league score leader...and this was a few years ago

I add Tiny Archibald's 34 ppg season in 1973 and 30 ppg from World B Free in 1980.

And iverson averaged 33 ppg too in the inbetween

Small 6 feet~ or less scorers have existed in all eras, why are you guys arguing over that?

Nba has never been defensively "though" or developed enough that a sufficiently gifted "small" guy cannot score in troves

[HEAT33]

If I could pick a player to join my Miami heat for a season out of all the players today and a 97 MJ
Im picking 97 MJ all day, everyday.

PG: K Lowry
SG: M Jordan
SF: J Butler
PF: C Martin
C: B Adebayo

Another ring coming our way

[mysticOscar]

I'll raise you with Isaiah Thomas who was shorter and drafted late in 2nd rd who scored multiple 50pt and 40pt games and nearly nabbed the league score leader...and this was a few years ago

I add Tiny Archibald's 34 ppg season in 1973 and 30 ppg from World B Free in 1980.

And iverson averaged 33 ppg too in the inbetween

Small 6 feet~ or less scorers have existed in all eras, why are you guys arguing over that?

Nba has never been defensively "though" or developed enough that a sufficiently gifted "small" guy cannot score in troves

There's no argument that smaller guys can score in the league in particular. In particular outliers like Mitchell's game the other day or Isaiah Thomas season from a few years ago.

I just find it doesn't add anything much to the discussion regarding the different environment to the 90s vs now. Players can get hot in any era and nothing can defense do.

Mitchell's game the other day he was just playing out of his mind...it happens

[tsherkin]

Mitchell's game the other day he was just playing out of his mind...it happens

2002, ancient MJ (my age!)
dropped 50+ and 40+ in consecutive games because his J got super hot. You're definitely on point here.

[mysticOscar]

Mitchell's game the other day he was just playing out of his mind...it happens

2002, ancient MJ (my age!)
dropped 50+ and 40+ in consecutive games because his J got super hot. You're definitely on point here.

I just don't like to use outlier seasons or games to assess difference in era.

[tsherkin]

Mitchell's game the other day he was just playing out of his mind...it happens

2002, ancient MJ (my age!)
dropped 50+ and 40+ in consecutive games because his J got super hot. You're definitely on point here.

I just don't like to use outlier seasons or games to assess difference in era.

I agree, they are not a good measure because all it takes is a player to get hot. Mike James, a career nobody, got got for a whole season and averaged 20.3 ppg and never scored more than 11.8 ppg in any other season of his career.

And it's natural with raw scoring and pace going up that players will have more higher-scoring performances. Just as they did in faster-paced, earlier eras.

[70sFan]

What years does ben have jordan as a top 3 ever sg caliber in defense? I have been watching 92 jordan film recently and is not in that caliber imo

88-90 may be more likely but i would have to watch some jordan games with focus on defense

What SGs would you take defensively over 1992 Jordan? Have you studied them this hard as well?

I'm asking this because sometimes when you study player's tendencies really hard you start to see more and more weaknesses. It may give you the idea that this player is overrated, but you have to keep in mind that you have to do the same process for all great defenders.

Of guards i have watched enough to be confident in this view

Tony allen

Peak wade

Bulls Jimmy butler

Jason kidd (pg but plays like a sg in defense a ton)

There is also sidney moncrief who i have not watched much film of yet but including him from rep as probable

If we expand it to guards in general who "play point guard" in defense i would add jrue holliday, frazier as strong options

Then there are the odd cases of big players who played guard in defense like andre roberson or ben simmons who i would handily take over jordan for D

Let's start with that I don't want to include Ben Simmons who isn't really a guard on defense.

Wade pick is interesting. Which years would you say Wade peaked on defensive end?

Allen, Kidd, Jrue and Frazier are all legit choices, they were fantastic. It still makes 1992 Jordan around top 5 defensive guard ever, which is fairly impressive given his offensive load.

After watching a lot of Moncrief games, I don't think I would call him a better defender than Jordan. Others I would consider are Jerry West, younger Dennis Johnson and Marcus Smart. Maybe I am forgetting someone now.

[falcolombardi]

What SGs would you take defensively over 1992 Jordan? Have you studied them this hard as well?

I'm asking this because sometimes when you study player's tendencies really hard you start to see more and more weaknesses. It may give you the idea that this player is overrated, but you have to keep in mind that you have to do the same process for all great defenders.

Of guards i have watched enough to be confident in this view

Tony allen

Peak wade

Bulls Jimmy butler

Jason kidd (pg but plays like a sg in defense a ton)

There is also sidney moncrief who i have not watched much film of yet but including him from rep as probable

If we expand it to guards in general who "play point guard" in defense i would add jrue holliday, frazier as strong options

Then there are the odd cases of big players who played guard in defense like andre roberson or ben simmons who i would handily take over jordan for D

Let's start with that I don't want to include Ben Simmons who isn't really a guard on defense.

Wade pick is interesting. Which years would you say Wade peaked on defensive end?

Allen, Kidd, Jrue and Frazier are all legit choices, they were fantastic. It still makes 1992 Jordan around top 5 defensive guard ever, which is fairly impressive given his offensive load.

After watching a lot of Moncrief games, I don't think I would call him a better defender than Jordan. Others I would consider are Jerry West, younger Dennis Johnson and Marcus Smart. Maybe I am forgetting someone now.

For wade his healthy seasons circa 2006-2011 are clearly better than what i have seen from 92 (and 93 months before) jordan defense. Less mistakes amd better help defense inside, albeit a bit easier to beat off ball/or off the dribble (i value the former thinghs more)

If he counts as a shooting guard i would add danny green too and i am fairly confident on peak defense butler>92/93 jordan

Note that i have not watched as many players as you are and this is only guys from the 00's and the few older guys i am more familiar with.

If i watched as many footage as you and others here i suspect i could double the picks. And move 92 jordan out of a top 10 guard defender (i can almost do it already just out of guys i am familiarized with: wade,kidd,frazier, jrue,danny green(?), smart,allen, butler)

To me this version of jordan has too high of a error rate to be that caliber of a defender and not enough motor/activity to make that weakness weight little in the aggregate

Do you not have -peak- moncrief over 92/93 jordan? Remember we are comparing that specific non peak version of jordan defense against everyone else. 88 jordan (who i admittedly have not yet game tracked as i have ring years) may be a top 3 sg defender but is hard for me to envision 92/93 jordan as one

When i finish game tracking more jordan games i can post some of my notes on them to show why i am not that high on that version

[magicman1978]

Where would you guys put Nate McMillan and Alvin Robertson?

[falcolombardi]

Where would you guys put Nate McMillan and Alvin Robertson?

I have heard some impressive stuff about mcmillan but i have not watched him at all so dunno.