2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2581 » by falcolombardi » Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:20 pm

parsnips33 wrote:Marcus Smart DPOY got me thinking - should there be separate DPOY award for perimeter vs interior? It feels wrong that Smart won when there are bigs with much greater defensive impact, but it also feels wrong for guards to basically be excluded from the award except for rare occasions


this is the same debate they have in the nfl about non quarterbacks winning mvps

in both cases it feels farcical to give a guy the award for being more impressibe relative to position when all D/pro bowl awards already exist

imagine if we gave mvps to the best 6 feet player not for being the best but for being so great for his height? it would feel almost like a backhanded compliment
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2582 » by parsnips33 » Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:23 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
parsnips33 wrote:Marcus Smart DPOY got me thinking - should there be separate DPOY award for perimeter vs interior? It feels wrong that Smart won when there are bigs with much greater defensive impact, but it also feels wrong for guards to basically be excluded from the award except for rare occasions


this is the same debate they have in the nfl about non quarterbacks winning mvps

in both cases it feels farcical to give a guy the award for being more impressibe relative to position when all D/pro bowl awards already exist

imagine if we gave mvps to the best 6 feet player not for being the best but for being so great for his height? it would feel almost backhanded


I don't know if you saw that documentary about Kanye, but this reminds of a scene from it. When he was coming up, somebody said "hey Kanye you're the best rapper/producer out right now" and he said F that either say I'm the best rapper or don't say anything at all

But yeah I think you're right, it's almost patronizing to add a qualifier like that. I guess all defense teams serve the same purpose already
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2583 » by eminence » Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:10 pm

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eminence wrote:Have the Warriors won the title - obviously no. Strictly speaking playoffs they've probably looked the most impressive so far though. We'll see how they continue to look as the playoffs go on.

Let me say this: though I'm not totally convinced the bucks will.make the finals, I think if the warriors do make it and run into giannis and company, they will get slaughtered. A lot of the NBA is about matchups and giannis over the past few years has shown me time and again in this particular match-up that he is basically a freight train against them. Plus with holiday to bully curry and Middleton for klay to cover.....warriors aren't a good match for them. The suns actually provide a much tougher matchup.

Again tho, I could see Milwaukee potentially losing to Boston or to philly/Miami. Any of those 4 can make it imo, though id say Boston and Milwaukee have the highest chances.


I don't know how to anticipate that matchup.

These version of those teams have essentially never really played one another.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2584 » by parsnips33 » Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:23 pm

Comment on the Jazz that has nothing to do with their defense:

I'm a big fan of watching Bogdanovic out of the post. Seems like he gets whatever he wants down there
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2585 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:29 am

parsnips33 wrote:Comment on the Jazz that has nothing to do with their defense:

I'm a big fan of watching Bogdanovic out of the post. Seems like he gets whatever he wants down there


he's being defended by Jalen Brunson.....

But yeah he's a really talented offensive player. Love everything about his game.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2586 » by falcolombardi » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:29 am

butler and the heat have had a excellenr series

heat doesnt "buy" me yet but they are damn solid, will be a tough series for anyone
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2587 » by GSP » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:54 am

falcolombardi wrote:butler and the heat have had a excellenr series

heat doesnt "buy" me yet but they are damn solid, will be a tough series for anyone


I dont think Heat have been excellent overall TBH..... Herro and Bam have been afterthoughts so far......Jimmy has been terrific tho
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2588 » by GSP » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:57 am

2nd round is gonna be INTENSE

Boston Milwaukee
Miami Philly

Golden State Memphis
Phoenix Dallas
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2589 » by eminence » Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:39 am

Would not have guessed that the Western 1st round would look so much more interesting than the East through 2 games.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2590 » by SeniorWalker » Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:19 am

Sorry Suns fans, hope Book's injury is minor.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2591 » by falcolombardi » Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:56 am

booker injury is unlikely to be a serious one so the queation is

will he be back for later rounds, particularly by a hipothetical wcf?

can the suns weather the pelicans series without him? in theory they should but that series is really risky now, a 5 gane series against a motivated underdog with all the pressure on suns
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2592 » by 70sFan » Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:25 am

Ron Swanson wrote:The "Jokic isn't made for the playoffs" stuff is comical, but I also don't think it should be completely dismissed how badly he's been stymied in his last two playoff series by teams that understand you should just target him on high pick & rolls over and over again, while devoting single coverage and playing the passing lanes on defense.

We're in an era where these guys are always gonna get their numbers (25/10/5 doesn't look "bad" on paper), but 51.6% TS, only 10 assists vs. 6 turnovers, and a mind-boggling 45 points-per-100 worse with him on the court vs. off is.......yikes. GS is just going small and quite literally running him off the court. I'm just stunned that he's been this ineffective through 2 games.

I just finished rewatching game 2 and my thoughts are quite a bit different than they were in the first place. My points:

1. It's true that Jokic has been hunted by Curry and Draymond in P&Rs and he did a poor job defending them in most cases, but Nuggets defensive concerns aren't really related to Jokic. I haven't seen such a bad defensive team off-ball in a long time. Of course Warriors are tough to contain with their constant movement, but Nuggets were literally lost after one off-ball screen at times. This team has no decent defenders without the ball, even Gordon who's supposedly to be good defender is lost when he doesn't guard the ball-handler. So yeah, you can question Jokic's defensive value but he'd look much better in different team. This one is absolute disaster. Jokic despite playing mediore series is probably still their best defender, which says a lot.

2. With that being said, this is why I value two-way centers historically so much. Jokic shouldn't be blamed for Nuggets horrible defensive performance, but he can't do much to at least cover some of his teammates mistakes. If you look at someone like Gobert, he's been criticized a lot but the truth is that he makes Jazz competitive on defensive end, even after all those breakdowns. Jokic can't do that and although it's not really a criticism, we should consider that when we compare him to other ATG centers. I mean, Kareem was forced to score 40 ppg vs Warriors in 1977 and he still cleared a lot of breakdowns on the other side of the court.

3. Describing Warriors defensive gameplan as "devoting single coverage and playing passing lanes" is a huge simplification. Jokic draws a lot of attention in this series. Warriors executes their gameplan perfectly, but Jokic still eats them alive every time he gets a space to breath. I mean, I've been reading comments that Draymond Green shuts him down but the reality is that Jokic usually scores on him most of the time they match up straight. The difference maker is how Green guards him without the ball. He's smart enough to see all these little tricks Jokic does, all those subtle moves that usually makes him open. Draymond is extremely smart and he follows him well. It also helps that Nuggets perimeter players can't create anything without Jokic help of course.

4. Jokic is clearly frustrated and I can't blame him. Warriors sag off shooters and Nuggets players can't take advantage out of that. He makes some nice passes only to see how his teammates turns the ball over or miss open shots. There was one play in the third quarter when Jokic spins in the post to the baseline, help came into him and he found Green open under the basket, but Green decided to pass the ball outside and the advantage was over. It's such a shame that Jokic don't have anyone to play with. It reminds me 1982 Moses situation when he won MVP just to lose in the first round because his team was so bad.

5. Funny enough, Cousins is the bright spot on the Nuggets team. When he plays, Warriors struggle to contain him and he usually makes good reads on the fly. Didn't expect that.

6. Warriors defense looks very good, but to draw a clear conclusion we have to wait for another round. I'd like to see their defense against guards who can dribble the ball without Jokic's help.

7. Jordan Poole is quietly the best player of his team for now (or 2nd to Draymond). I know that Curry went nuclear from the bench, but after rewatching this game I think Poole was even more impressive.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2593 » by 70sFan » Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:30 am

By the way, I haven't watched Suns vs Pelicans game 2 and I'm quite shocked that they lost even with Booker injury. Anything concerning for Suns fans?
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2594 » by weekend_warrior » Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:43 am

Jokic is an absolute beast offensively and a joy to watch for sure. And yes, his team mates aren't good defender either. But these excuses for him need to stop. He is a clear weakness and target for GSW on the defensive end. He may be a strong guy that can defend the post well, but as soon as he has to shuffle his feet and defend out in space, he's lost and doesn't impact the play at all. And part of the reason why his team mates look bad is because they have to constantly scramble.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2595 » by 70sFan » Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:43 am

Another thought that I have recently - what's your take on Embiid's defense this season? I'm not impressed by his defensive effort at all vs Raptors so far. He's surrounded by very good defenders and it allows him to take possessions off on consistent basis. Do you think he'd fare better than Jokic in Joker's place?
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2596 » by 70sFan » Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:47 am

weekend_warrior wrote:Jokic is an absolute beast offensively and a joy to watch for sure. And yes, his team mates aren't good defender either. But these excuses for him need to stop. He is a clear weakness and target for GSW on the defensive end. He may be a strong guy that can defend the post well, but as soon as he has to shuffle his feet and defend out in space, he's lost and doesn't impact the play at all. And part of the reason why his team mates look bad is because they have to constantly scramble.

They look completely inept defensively even when Jokic isn't on the floor. Of course he's not very good against spread P&Rs but at least he had some deflection on P&R coverages.

The problem is that all Nuggets players consistently miss their man without the ball, even after scored basket. In one play they came back to defense so badly that they forced Jokic to guard Thompson without any switch or forced breakdown. They are absolutely horrible and again, as bad as Jokic has been defensively you can make a case that he's still better than the rest of his team.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2597 » by Dutchball97 » Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:41 am

70sFan wrote:By the way, I haven't watched Suns vs Pelicans game 2 and I'm quite shocked that they lost even with Booker injury. Anything concerning for Suns fans?


Honestly I doubt the Suns should be too concerned. The Pelicans shot 57% from 3, that isn't really sustainable throughout the whole series. Besides the Booker injury, CP3 and especially Crowder were cold as well. Nice to see the Pelicans show they're not just pushovers though.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2598 » by weekend_warrior » Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:54 am

70sFan wrote:They look completely inept defensively even when Jokic isn't on the floor.


Of course it doesn't help here that Jokic is usually replaced by the homeless man's version of himself: DeMarcus Cousins. :D


70sFan wrote:Of course he's not very good against spread P&Rs but at least he had some deflection on P&R coverages. The problem is that all Nuggets players consistently miss their man without the ball, even after scored basket. In one play they came back to defense so badly that they forced Jokic to guard Thompson without any switch or forced breakdown. They are absolutely horrible and again, as bad as Jokic has been defensively you can make a case that he's still better than the rest of his team.


They definitely had a bunch of very easy and unforced errors in rotations. In general, they really lack a defensive "quarterback", someone to organize the defense.

I cannot get onboard though with Jokic being better defensively than his team mates. A lot of situations are generated because the Warriors get the numbers with a simple high p&r where Jokic is either nowhere near his man or gets cooked easily. The video breakdown in that thread from yesterday was quite illustrative of that issue.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2599 » by Peregrine01 » Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:18 pm

70sFan wrote:
weekend_warrior wrote:Jokic is an absolute beast offensively and a joy to watch for sure. And yes, his team mates aren't good defender either. But these excuses for him need to stop. He is a clear weakness and target for GSW on the defensive end. He may be a strong guy that can defend the post well, but as soon as he has to shuffle his feet and defend out in space, he's lost and doesn't impact the play at all. And part of the reason why his team mates look bad is because they have to constantly scramble.

They look completely inept defensively even when Jokic isn't on the floor. Of course he's not very good against spread P&Rs but at least he had some deflection on P&R coverages.

The problem is that all Nuggets players consistently miss their man without the ball, even after scored basket. In one play they came back to defense so badly that they forced Jokic to guard Thompson without any switch or forced breakdown. They are absolutely horrible and again, as bad as Jokic has been defensively you can make a case that he's still better than the rest of his team.


Monte Morris might be playing the best defense so far on this Nuggets team. He seems to be the only guy who can at least not get lost in the constant screening. As for the others, they just don't have the personnel to play perimeter defense. Aaron Gordon doesn't have the footspeed or body to be chasing around guards all over the floor. Will Barton seems more interested in yelling at teammates instead of picking up Steph Curry. 35 year old Jeff Green was so dizzy from playing defense that he didn't even realize Jokic fed him under the basket. Yeah, it's all bad. To minimize all these breakdowns, they should just play zone and hope for the best.

Nuggets are gonna have to make some big moves if they want to build a contender. Jokic disguised a lot of this team's faults in the regular season but when you think about it, the Nuggets don't really have a lot of players that stand out on defense OR offense.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2600 » by Peregrine01 » Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:26 pm

70sFan wrote:Another thought that I have recently - what's your take on Embiid's defense this season? I'm not impressed by his defensive effort at all vs Raptors so far. He's surrounded by very good defenders and it allows him to take possessions off on consistent basis. Do you think he'd fare better than Jokic in Joker's place?


I think he'd take some of the paint stuff away but I think he'd get killed by this lineup as well. When they played last season, Steph and Dray went at him relentlessly in the 4th quarter and Steph hit 5 threes with him playing drop in a 3 minute window. Now this team has Klay back AND Poole who's suddenly become another Curry? Not a knock on Embiid, but I just don't see any team being able to guard this lineup well. People complain about Curry being a cheat code but now they have two if Poole keeps playing like this.

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