2010-11 Player of the Year thread

fallacy · Post #261 » by **fallacy** » Sat May 28, 2011 9:45 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:You talk about Kidd scoring 17 PPG like it's a major accomplishment. If my offense with Kidd is going like I want it, Kidd scores a hell of a lot less than 17 PPG because it's bound to be a very inefficient 17. The major gap between these two players on offense is not caused by Kidd scoring more.

Let's also not that it's pretty silly to talk about Kidd as a 17/11/7 player when he never achieved that, and then talk about Calderon based on on his career average.

Let's at least level the playing field an exaggerate for Calderon too, eh?

"Calderon is a 13/9 player who scores at 62% TS instead of Kidd's 53%"

And my statement to you is that the notion that one must choose between quantity vs quality is a fallacy, Mr. fallacy.

You are entitled to a preference of weighing efficiency more than other people of course, but you have to give quantity some kind of weight as well.

- I just said the prime Jason Kidd was that player, not career. In 1998 he had a 16.9 pts, 10.8 asts, 6.8 rebs, 2.3 stls, .444 fg%, .366 3pt%. That's insane. Kidd is also a top 50 all-time player and he was never a great scorer like KD, so I guess you win that one, I think. I kind of forgot the point that Kidd was bringing up.

- Unless you're talking about players like Jordan, Lebron, or Bird you'll have to choose between quality and quantity. There are very few players have have quality and quantity, and Rose or Durant aren't one of those.

- This doesn't have to do with Durant or Rose, but I just want to know you're opinion on this. Would you rather have a player that is average to good on a lot of things, but great at nothing. Or a player that isn't as good at as many things, but is great at a good number of things?

For example, would you want Shaq (great scorer, rebounder, defender, bad at everything else) or Grant Hill (very good passer, rebounder, scorer, defender, etc; but not great at anything)? Just in a vacuum, not dependent on the team built around them, etc.

EDIT: And by the way, the quantity of Rose realistically isn't that much more than the quantity that Durant puts out either, and Durant's quality is much higher.

Post #262 » by **slick_watts** » Sat May 28, 2011 9:56 pm

I'm curious whether or not those individuals who feel Derrick Rose had a better season than Kevin Durant, due to his ability to distribute the ball, also feel that Russell Westbrook had a better season than Kevin Durant?

ElGee · Post #263 » by **ElGee** » Sat May 28, 2011 11:16 pm

slick_watts wrote:I'm curious whether or not those individuals who feel Derrick Rose had a better season than Kevin Durant, due to his ability to distribute the ball, also feel that Russell Westbrook had a better season than Kevin Durant?

If you're implying that Westbrook is close to Durant, I can buy that (to a certain degree -- Westbrook is not without his faults). If you're saying that because of style/role similarities, Westbrook and Rose are comparable, I don't buy that. If we're equating their styles, I think Rose was simply a better version of Westbrook this year.

Post #264 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat May 28, 2011 11:23 pm

After the Conference Finals:

1A. Dirk Nowitzki (4)

It’s been a joy to watch Dirk this year. He would without question be my Offensive Player of the Year. He plays so damn smart, with such an unreal touch. The Mavs are in the finals, with not a ton of talent around Dirk. I know that fit matters, and the Mavs have fantastic fit, but Dirk deserves some credit for helping to build that fit to.

1B. LeBron James (3)

And then there’s LeBron. I talked once before about how much I hate ties in rankings…when I last ranked a tie. Again though it seems appropriate right now as an in flux ranking to have a tie on top.

What LeBron did to Chicago was unreal. Tier 1 level offense, with world class defense. He is the best player in the game, and at this point I’m expecting him to take the crown over Dirk when all is said and done. But as they say, that’s why they play the game.

3. Dwight Howard (1)

I figured he wouldn’t stay at #1 with him having so much vacation time. Nothing’s said in stone though, Dirk & LeBron could still fall back if they play poorly enough in the Finals, and Wade could most certainly keep moving up.

4. Dwyane Wade (6)

This is a little tricky. Wade didn’t exactly blow our minds consistently during the Chicago series, although people over state the issue. He had same fantastic moments, and his issue just seemed to be that he was tired. You also really can’t say that Rose outplayed him. So I’m left with the reality that I’ve never wavered in considering Wade a better player than Rose, and Wade’s Heat is now clearly superior to Rose’s Bulls. There really isn’t a strong argument left for Rose.

5. Derrick Rose (2)

So Rose’s drop to 5 is pretty definite. The only real question is whether he should also fall behind the Durantula. That’s tough, and I haven’t firmly made up my mind to be honest.

A key fact though that people need to keep in mind: Though Chicago and OKC exited the playoffs at about the same time, it’s wrong to look at the two teams as if they had comparable seasons. The Bulls really had a fantastic season that it seems simply ended when they faced the most talented team in the league coming into their own. The Thunder were a 4 seed who got one round deeper due to a fluke (8 seed beating a 1 seed), and still only beat that fluky team with the help of home court advantage.

6. Kevin Durant (5)

Dropping Durant seems unfair. I don’t think less of him for the loss to the Mavericks, but that’s how rankings work. James and Wade were lower before in these lists because their team wasn’t making the most of its talent, and now that isn’t true.

Still, I hope Durant takes the Thunder’s loss to the Maverick’s to heart, and sees how to become a more aggressive and more aware player like Dirk.

7. Chris Paul (7)

No change with Paul. Getting the 7 spot with a fractured season like he had shows how amazing the guy is.

8. Zach Randolph (8)

Also leaving Zach in place.

9. Chris Bosh (NR)

Bosh is a man who has taken a lot of crap. He took it in Toronto, and then it exploded when he signed on as the perceived 3rd wheel in Miami. It don’t think it’s fair, especially this year. His volume stats had to go down on the Heat. He’s making that sacrifice for the team, and this team would certainly not be in the Finals right now if Bosh didn’t embrace this role.

Is Bosh truly a top 10 player in the game? I don’t know about that, but then I also don’t know about Randolph or Westbrook being on that level. Circumstances have a lot to do with these later spots, and it’s tough for me to really think of anyone else besides the guys above whose team has benefited more from a player’s presence than Bosh.

10. Russell Westbrook (9)

The Conference Semis just did more to highlight what we already knew about Russell. He’s flawed, but not all the Thunder’s issues should be blamed on him. The Thunder relied upon him quite a bit, and they got to a good place.

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/05/28 ... ce-finals/

Post #265 » by **slick_watts** » Sat May 28, 2011 11:44 pm

ElGee wrote:If you're implying that Westbrook is close to Durant, I can buy that (to a certain degree -- Westbrook is not without his faults). If you're saying that because of style/role similarities, Westbrook and Rose are comparable, I don't buy that. If we're equating their styles, I think Rose was simply a better version of Westbrook this year.

Ball distribution and assist generation are highly dependent on player roles... Kevin Durant finishes plays. When comparing him to someone like Derrick Rose, I don't think the fact that Rose generates assists should be a deciding factor in the comparison, since he does not generate them at a rate that is elite relative to his position and role. Among starting point guards, Rose generated more assists per 100 possessions than only Brandon Jennings. His totals are high because he dominates the ball more than any player in the league except for maybe Kobe Bryant.

On the other hand, Kevin Durant rates very well as a rebounder relative to his position and role, and of course was the best scorer in the league during the season (or among the top two or three, even if you're going to be picky).

The fact that Durant had a very strong postseason, scoring at about the same volume and efficiency he managed during the regular season - while Rose did not (but still played well), would have me rate his season higher.

An Unbiased Fan · Post #266 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Wed Jun 1, 2011 12:19 am

Doctor MJ wrote:9. Chris Bosh (NR)

Bosh is a man who has taken a lot of crap. He took it in Toronto, and then it exploded when he signed on as the perceived 3rd wheel in Miami. It don’t think it’s fair, especially this year. His volume stats had to go down on the Heat. He’s making that sacrifice for the team, and this team would certainly not be in the Finals right now if Bosh didn’t embrace this role.

Is Bosh truly a top 10 player in the game? I don’t know about that, but then I also don’t know about Randolph or Westbrook being on that level. Circumstances have a lot to do with these later spots, and it’s tough for me to really think of anyone else besides the guys above whose team has benefited more from a player’s presence than Bosh.

Woah, slowdown Doc. Other than"embracing his role", how in the World has Bosh been a better player than any of these guys....

Westbrook
Nash
Kobe
Manu
Amare
Deron

Bosh is a 3rd option, and has been medicore all year long.

GilmoreFan · Post #267 » by **GilmoreFan** » Wed Jun 1, 2011 1:32 am

Lebron and Dirk should headline any list for this.

Post #268 » by **Doctor MJ** » Wed Jun 1, 2011 5:03 am

An Unbiased Fan wrote:Woah, slowdown Doc. Other than"embracing his role", how in the World has Bosh been a better player than any of these guys....

Westbrook
Nash
Kobe
Manu
Amare
Deron

Bosh is a 3rd option, and has been medicore all year long.

I'm glad to see someone challenging me on one of my last 3 guys. I really don't feel strongly about any of them. Responding about 6 guys is a lot of work, I'm going to concentrate on Bosh vs Amare which is the most obvious comparison, and then just hit the others quick.

Right now, I think people perceive Amare as doing the superstar on a mediocre team while Bosh has become a role player. And yet, if you look at all-in-one advanced stats, while Amare has the PER edge, Bosh has the Win Share edge. Bosh also has a clear edge in RAPM. All while actually sacrificing to help a team possibly win a title.

Let's remember also Bosh's Toronto of last year pretty much the same record as New York this year, and when Bosh was on that team he produced a PER well above Stoudemire as well.

So bottom line is that there is plenty of reason to see Bosh and Amare as equal caliber player capable of doing similar things when they are their team's star, and Bosh is actually still arguably more impressive statistically in Miami even with his sacrifices. I've yet to hear anyone say they think Amare could fill Bosh's role in Miami. So what exactly does Amare have going for him over Bosh?

Now, I could see someone saying "I don't disagree with you, but in my vote, I don't care about who the actual better more versatile player is, Bosh's sacrifice means he's making less of his individual impact than before, and that gives Amare the edge.", and I'm fine with someone ranking Amare over Bosh for that reason. Personally though, I am trying to approximate "best player" with my ranking. I'm going by what a player does in a given season of course, but if Player A can do both his role and Player B's role better than Player B, I'm hesitant to give Player B the nod.

Westbrook? Anyone think it's clear that the Thunder would miss him more than the Heat would miss Bosh?

Nash? The way he fell after the all-star break makes it tough.

Kobe? Honestly I'm reflecting on whether I'm being fair to him. But seriously, his team underperformed when he was on the court during the regular season and then the team majorly disappointed in the playoffs.

Manu? Played 30 MPG on a team that lost in the first round, while Bosh played 36 MPG on a likely title winner. I'll take Ginobili per minute, but hard to imagine he truly contributed more over the season.

Deron? He was there until the trade, but didn't contribute enough value in Utah to get them anywhere, and his 12 games in Jersey before shutting it down toward the year doesn't do a whole lot for his case.

RappaR · Post #269 » by **RappaR** » Wed Jun 1, 2011 10:18 am

I dont know if I am not to late, well at least I joib to discussion.
Finals will decise who is first among duo Dirk&James, they build enought margain over rest that they cannot blew.
As third if we talk aboug all the year I see Rose. Although in Rs I recignise Dirk as true MVP, he still achieved good as hell 62-20 and reached ECF. Much due to TT and Deng, but still he had impact, run without Noah and Boozer deserves that 3rd.
Paul i see as fourth. He managed this good as crap Noh take to Po and win 2 against champ. Carry all offense and made the biggest defense impact on the floor among all the pg. I think he is much better than Rose, but 46w and I round cant be compare to this Bulls.
Howard closes top5 with **** great boxscore, comparable to greatest C. 52w with this support proves that this arent empty stats. In po he failed against Hawks, but still with 27/15 and espiecially huge g1 we cant put blame on him.
Honorable mention in that order Manu, Durant, Wade, Zach, Kobe.

Post #270 » by **CellarDoor** » Thu Jun 2, 2011 4:47 pm

I know this is an odd situation with Bosh being in a 3rd option role, but within the parameters of POY; how many times has a third option been in consideration? The Bulls dared him to beat us and he did. It's commendable, but he did what he's supposed to do, and what he's supposed to do isn't worthy of a top 10 spot.

My fluid top 5:
Lebron
Howard
Dirk
Wade
Rose/Durant

I'm a Bulls fan, so if we're being honest, I'll probably end up going rose.

Next 2: Kobe, Paul

fatal9 · Post #271 » by **fatal9** » Thu Jun 2, 2011 7:06 pm

I'd say something like...

1. LeBron - best in the game, still leads the league statistically, brilliant in the clutch in the playoffs, possibly best perimeter defender in the game right now as well (definitely the most versatile).
2. Dirk - great example of how stars can sometimes do more by doing less, his efficiency has been staggering all season. pushes along the offense, takes nothing off the table, scores when needed, takes a back seat when needed (though his presence and ability to space the floor is integral to the Mavs offense even when he isn't touching the ball), his decision making has just been amazing. best performer in the playoffs so far, and impact in the regular season better than stats suggest.
3. Dwight - needs to learn how to involve teammates and read defenses better when he is posting up, he took a big step this season but still so much potential. feels like too many of his big performances end up just taking the perimeter players out of the game. still undeniable value to his team on both ends.
4. Durant - took a step back in the regular season but had a good run in the playoffs along with a few clutch moments. not ready to label him best scorer in the league because he still has holes in his scoring game (one on one iso especially). still, can't deny a spot to a guy who gives you an efficient 30 every night, moves the ball well and has MVP type impact on his team's offense.
5. Wade - probably the most "replaceable" guy on the list (as lebron and bosh could up their production, lebron has similar skill-set) but still have to give him the nod over Rose in that he is simply a better player. also has played well in the playoffs (outside of the Bulls series but had his clutch moments and played great defense), was brilliant against the Celtics who in the past have been basically able to shutdown everyone on command in the playoffs.

Sorry, not sold on Rose (as a top 5-7 player) and never was this season. Not only was he terrible in the playoffs, I just don't consider him to be on the same level as these guys yet.

Dr Positivity · Post #272 » by **Dr Positivity** » Fri Jun 3, 2011 8:51 pm

Right now I'd probably go

1. LBJ
2. Dirk
3. Rose
4. Wade
5. Howard

Post #273 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Jun 6, 2011 10:44 pm

No conversation for the past few days? Three words:

Dwyane Wade. Discuss.

Post #274 » by **mopper8** » Mon Jun 6, 2011 10:58 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:No conversation for the past few days? Three words:

Dwyane Wade. Discuss.

He's been Miami's best player in 2 playoff series so far including the Finals, and in the Finals seems to be in a gear few others can reach.

On the other hand, part of the reason he can play with that insane amount of energy is because Lebron is there playing 45 mpg, providing the team stability when he's on the bench.

On yet another hand, how about him getting in Lebron's ear for not being aggressive offensively? Who else in the league has the cache to do that? Does that say anything significant?

JordansBulls · Post #275 » by **JordansBulls** » Tue Jun 7, 2011 12:16 am

Doctor MJ wrote:No conversation for the past few days? Three words:

Dwyane Wade. Discuss.

If the Heat win the title this year and Wade gets finals mvp you can argue him POY with Lebron #2 or even a 1a and 1b situation.

nonemus · Post #276 » by **nonemus** » Tue Jun 7, 2011 4:33 am

mopper8 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:No conversation for the past few days? Three words:

Dwyane Wade. Discuss.

He's been Miami's best player in 2 playoff series so far including the Finals, and in the Finals seems to be in a gear few others can reach.

On the other hand, part of the reason he can play with that insane amount of energy is because Lebron is there playing 45 mpg, providing the team stability when he's on the bench.

On yet another hand, how about him getting in Lebron's ear for not being aggressive offensively? Who else in the league has the cache to do that? Does that say anything significant?

I'm still angry at Lebron for how he playing in game 2. Sure, people have bad games. But that loss was 80% his fault due to his bonehead plays in the last 7 minutes of the fourth. Wade went superman to give the Heat a 15 point lead, and Lebron wanted to play hero ball in the last minutes of the 4th and lost the Heat the ball game with his ill-advised shot selection and lack of passing.

Wade's stats in the finals are 29/8.7/5 with 2/2.5 s/b and 2.0 TO/ game on 63% TS.

GreenHat · Post #277 » by **GreenHat** » Tue Jun 7, 2011 7:33 am

^^^ I think how much you like Wade is causing you to exaggerate a little there, saying the loss was 80% Lebron's fault and making it seem like the lead was all wade and the collapse was all Lebron.

Wade has been better in this series so far but in terms of the player of the year I don't think he catches Lebron even if he wins the Finals MVP (unless Lebron completely lays an egg and Wade has legendary games).

Lebron just did more for most of the year (including the playoffs) and has been the better player. It would be one thing if this was how the whole playoffs have gone but Lebron was better just last series and Wade did bad.

nonemus · Post #278 » by **nonemus** » Tue Jun 7, 2011 8:07 am

I like Wade, but I don't let that influence my opinion. I didn't even have him in my top 3 before. I'm not your stereotypical player fan.

And I stand by what I said, Lebron was the sole reason the Heat lost in game two. That's a pretty big deal, to choke a 15 point lead in the finals. As of now, Wade isn't my #1, Lebron is. Then it's Howard, Wade and Dirk in some order. But if Wade keeps playing like this (Carrying his team on the biggest stage), and Lebron keeps playing like that (not stepping up), then I think it may be Wade. If it becomes more close, there is no reason for Lebron not to win it then, regardless of if he wins the Finals MVP or not.

Post #279 » by **Doctor MJ** » Tue Jun 7, 2011 4:59 pm

mopper8 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:No conversation for the past few days? Three words:

Dwyane Wade. Discuss.

He's been Miami's best player in 2 playoff series so far including the Finals, and in the Finals seems to be in a gear few others can reach.

On the other hand, part of the reason he can play with that insane amount of energy is because Lebron is there playing 45 mpg, providing the team stability when he's on the bench.

On yet another hand, how about him getting in Lebron's ear for not being aggressive offensively? Who else in the league has the cache to do that? Does that say anything significant?

Sounds like you're going through the same mental ping pong I am.

At this point I'd still put LeBron ahead, and I'm not going to toss aside LeBron's huge MPG lightly. Literally, Wade's playing now because he has energy he wouldn't have if LeBron wasn't such a tank.

What will make it tough for me is if Wade keeps far surpassing LeBron in the finals, and Dallas extends the series. If LeBron had been able to give a little less in previous series, Miami still wins. They were never in any huge danger. If Dallas truly threatens Miami, and Miami wins through Wade playing unreal with LeBron fading in the background, that will be hard to ignore.

Also, I've been reading some people say about LeBron that he should be praised for being willing to defer to a hot teammate, and there's some truth to that, but literally the combined LeBron-Wade scoring average is down in the finals from both the regular season and the rest of the playoffs, as has the team's offensive efficiency. At the same time Wade has been bounding around on the court like some kind of mutant 3-year old, leading his team in rebounding and blocking as many shots as any Mavs.

This isn't a case of Wade scoring 40 PPG every night and literally precluding another teammate from volume scoring, LeBron really just isn't being as aggressive as he normally is. It may be because Wade exerting so much dominance all over the court that LeBron's first thought is to get out of the way, but if Dallas continues to fight back, LeBron has to do more than that.

Post #280 » by **mopper8** » Tue Jun 7, 2011 6:33 pm

Lol @ "mutant 3 year old" one of your finest Doc

Yeah it's hard...his energy seems boundless but we know he probably can't maintain that (or even muster it from earlier round fatigue) without Lebron playing those minutes.

Their combined scoring average is down but is that attributable pace-reduction at all? Or do the extended minutes make up for that? Cause both as individuals have been very efficient for the series...how much of the declining Oeff is attributable to Bosh's struggles? Especially considering how much we run through him in the high post in the double-elbows sets.