James Harden is a superstar

[Vindicater]

Holy wow.

I think he meant strictly from the perspective of scoring efficiency. Harden rocked a 66% TS in the regular season this year, which is stunning by any conception, and he's currently leading the postseason at 68%. He was at 125 ORTG in the RS and 128 so far in the PS.

That's pretty comparable. I wouldn't say his net offensive EFFECT is the same, but in terms of efficiency (which is what the poster wrote), yeah, it's comparable.

Sample size is not enough for me when you compare a player to a Hall of famer like Steve Nash.

Steve Nash had multiple seasons like this as the primary option (highest usage) on his team. Harden has done it off the bench with two guys ahead of him in the pecking order.

There is no way you can compare the two in my opinion, until Harden gets his own offense.

[tsherkin]

I think you're missing the point.

Saying that he's been as efficient as someone is not the same as saying he's as good as someone. The former is an absolute statement; Harden rocked a regular season at 66% TS, which is absolutely staggering, and cannot be debated as a point. That level of efficiency is indeed comparable.

Comparing them as players, of course, is a different story, but you're extending the comment beyond its original intention, IMHO.

[Vindicater]

I think you're missing the point.

Saying that he's been as efficient as someone is not the same as saying he's as good as someone. The former is an absolute statement; Harden rocked a regular season at 66% TS, which is absolutely staggering, and cannot be debated as a point. That level of efficiency is indeed comparable.

Comparing them as players, of course, is a different story, but you're extending the comment beyond its original intention, IMHO.

No, I am talking about scoring efficiency only as well. Harden has had a great season, no doubt, and if he continues to put up those same numbers over the course of multiple seasons then I will say this becomes a conversation.

If Harden ever gets his own team and becomes the main focus of other defenses and continues to put up these numbers then we really have a conversation.

I am not arguing against James Harden per say as I am arguing against comparing one season from the a third year player who is playing as a 6th man to that of a career from a future hall of famer.

[monsterblock]

if Oklahoma was smart, they would trade Westbrook for Gortat and Nash. I think a Westbrook trade would be smart, because i want to see Harden get more shots.

Oklahoma might end up loosing Harden just like how Phoenix lost Joe Johnson or Detroit lost Allen Houston or Golden State lost Gilbert Arenas. I can see a big market team like New York, LA, Chicago, not having any problems and offering a max contract to James (if they have the cap) and appealing to Harden by guaranteeing Harden as #1 status and possible endorsements

[bbms]

James Harden does not turns the ball over. He has godlike ofensive rating. He's in a league of his own in terms of shooting efficiency. 10 shots to average 17 points per game? 66% TS? Unreal.

[bbms]

if Oklahoma was smart, they would trade Westbrook for Gortat and Nash. I think a Westbrook trade would be smart, because i want to see Harden get more shots.

Oklahoma might end up loosing Harden just like how Phoenix lost Joe Johnson or Detroit lost Allen Houston or Golden State lost Gilbert Arenas. I can see a big market team like New York, LA, Chicago, not having any problems and offering a max contract to James (if they have the cap) and appealing to Harden by guaranteeing Harden as #1 status and possible endorsements

The best option for the Thunder is to keep the core together to not mess with chemistry.

You're dealing with people, you can't simply trade a player without reactions between the roster. Also, Gortat and Nash aren't close to Westbrook's value.

[bastillon]

whether Harden is a superstar or not by some sort of definition is of lesser importance. what really matters though is that you'd rather have Harden with the ball in his hands than Durant. the two aren't really comparable in terms of playmaking and Durant is just so much better when Harden runs the offense because he draws those bigs out of the paint and Durant has a lot more space to work with. but in terms of actual IMPACT, Harden is better than Durant and every APM/RAPM study will tell you this for the next 10 years. Harden might put up unimpressive statlines sometimes but he still dominates. yesterday's performance was vintage Manu/Nash from 2005.

[Bravely Done]

whether Harden is a superstar or not by some sort of definition is of lesser importance. what really matters though is that you'd rather have Harden with the ball in his hands than Durant. the two aren't really comparable in terms of playmaking and Durant is just so much better when Harden runs the offense because he draws those bigs out of the paint and Durant has a lot more space to work with. but in terms of actual IMPACT, Harden is better than Durant and every APM/RAPM study will tell you this for the next 10 years. Harden might put up unimpressive statlines sometimes but he still dominates. yesterday's performance was vintage Manu/Nash from 2005.

James Harden doesn't have the impact Durant does, and to suggest so based on plus minus is (Please Use More Appropriate Word), I think. Now if you want to speak in terms of actual basketball, I'd love to hear how you came Goethe conclusion Harden has a greater on court impact than Durant when, as we've seen in the Dallas series, one of the primary reasons he and Westbrook are given so much room to operate is due to opposing defenses insistence of taking Durant out of the game.

[bastillon]

whether Harden is a superstar or not by some sort of definition is of lesser importance. what really matters though is that you'd rather have Harden with the ball in his hands than Durant. the two aren't really comparable in terms of playmaking and Durant is just so much better when Harden runs the offense because he draws those bigs out of the paint and Durant has a lot more space to work with. but in terms of actual IMPACT, Harden is better than Durant and every APM/RAPM study will tell you this for the next 10 years. Harden might put up unimpressive statlines sometimes but he still dominates. yesterday's performance was vintage Manu/Nash from 2005.

James Harden doesn't have the impact Durant does, and to suggest so based on plus minus is (Please Use More Appropriate Word), I think. Now if you want to speak in terms of actual basketball, I'd love to hear how you came Goethe conclusion Harden has a greater on court impact than Durant when, as we've seen in the Dallas series, one of the primary reasons he and Westbrook are given so much room to operate is due to opposing defenses insistence of taking Durant out of the game.

I don't think Westbrook & Durant are the reason why Harden is so succesful on offense because Harden is much better without them in the game. Westbrook & Durant are usually taking away his touches and Harden is the most effective in the pnrs. I know that Harden isn't regarded as a superstar but in terms of advanced stats both boxscore and +/-, he beats out Durant actually.

[pancakes3]

How do you expect him to be a superstar with two superstars type players on his team? If he had his chance to shine on another team I think he could be a superstar in this league no doubt.

If the thunder have 3 superstars, why aren't they dominating the league?

aren't they though?

[Vindicater]

whether Harden is a superstar or not by some sort of definition is of lesser importance. what really matters though is that you'd rather have Harden with the ball in his hands than Durant. the two aren't really comparable in terms of playmaking and Durant is just so much better when Harden runs the offense because he draws those bigs out of the paint and Durant has a lot more space to work with. but in terms of actual IMPACT, Harden is better than Durant and every APM/RAPM study will tell you this for the next 10 years. Harden might put up unimpressive statlines sometimes but he still dominates. yesterday's performance was vintage Manu/Nash from 2005.

James Harden doesn't have the impact Durant does, and to suggest so based on plus minus is (Please Use More Appropriate Word), I think. Now if you want to speak in terms of actual basketball, I'd love to hear how you came Goethe conclusion Harden has a greater on court impact than Durant when, as we've seen in the Dallas series, one of the primary reasons he and Westbrook are given so much room to operate is due to opposing defenses insistence of taking Durant out of the game.

I don't think Westbrook & Durant are the reason why Harden is so succesful on offense because Harden is much better without them in the game. Westbrook & Durant are usually taking away his touches and Harden is the most effective in the pnrs. I know that Harden isn't regarded as a superstar but in terms of advanced stats both boxscore and +/-, he beats out Durant actually.

And yet not one person would start a team around Harden over Durant...

Hmm... makes you think doesn't it?

[bastillon]

Harden is underrated because he makes his teammates better and has crazy efficiency - that's tough to see for most fans or even most experts. Durant is league's best scorer who could probably score 35/game if he needed to. playmaking is underrated, scoring is overrated. there's your answer.

[Vindicater]

Harden is underrated because he makes his teammates better and has crazy efficiency - that's tough to see for most fans or even most experts. Durant is league's best scorer who could probably score 35/game if he needed to. playmaking is underrated, scoring is overrated. there's your answer.

And I still don't see anyone wanting Harden over Durant.

People know what Harden brings to the table. He is a world class 3rd option who could probably be a world class 2nd option on another team or a star on a team running a treadmill.

This is obvious to most people who watch him play, even when you factor in his advanced stats.

[bastillon]

Harden is underrated because he makes his teammates better and has crazy efficiency - that's tough to see for most fans or even most experts. Durant is league's best scorer who could probably score 35/game if he needed to. playmaking is underrated, scoring is overrated. there's your answer.

And I still don't see anyone wanting Harden over Durant.

People know what Harden brings to the table. He is a world class 3rd option who could probably be a world class 2nd option on another team or a star on a team running a treadmill.

This is obvious to most people who watch him play, even when you factor in his advanced stats.

I strongly disagree. Harden is a legit offensive anchor. when he's running the offense, OKC are nearly unstoppable. I guarantee you that there is no play where Durant makes more global impact than Harden's pick and roll. Durant is a GREAT scorer but he's just that.

[Bravely Done]

I don't think Westbrook & Durant are the reason why Harden is so succesful on offense because Harden is much better without them in the game. Westbrook & Durant are usually taking away his touches and Harden is the most effective in the pnrs. I know that Harden isn't regarded as a superstar but in terms of advanced stats both boxscore and +/-, he beats out Durant actually.

Have you ever wondered why Harden is so successful running the pnr? Part of it can be explained by his high basketball iq, ability to beat defenders off the dribble with either hand, great play making skills, and his finishing ability around the rim. The part people don't see is that his skills are magnified by an open floor. In nearly all his PnR possessions he's allowed to play a two man game. A player of his caliber can eat in those situations nearly every time, so send more traps, right? Right. But you cant against OKC because they have a 6'11 monster with guard skills and unlimited range prowling the perimeter.

And so, defenses do what they must against players that have won three straight scoring titles. They respect him. So when people see Durant halt his off ball movement and stand stationary in either corner, or on either elbow, he isn't being lazy, he's drawing the defense. You'll see that teams, Dallas for example, will shade their entire defense to his side. Someone in his face, help from the big just outside the block, and maybe another defender sinking into the paint. This not only helps open up that stop and pop mid range game Westbrook stumbled upon this season, but leaves half the court open for James to feast in the PnR. That's exactly what you saw last night. Durant went 11/15 on jump shots in game 3, and Dallas played to that. That's how Durant makes his teammates better.

Numbers are meaningless without contex.

[bastillon]

this is just completely incorrect. I've watched OKC all season and it's the other way around. when Harden is playing pnr they're packing the paint for him which lets Durant and Westbrook thrive with tons of room to work with. there's even a play when Harden plays fake pick and roll with Collison while the other big is setting a backscreen for Cook and Harden makes a crosscourt pass to the corner. it's unguardable because entire defense is set to stop Harden's drive.

all Harden needs is shooters. but that's not very astonishing, everyone needs shooters. from Jordan to Shaq.

[Bravely Done]

this is just completely incorrect. I've watched OKC all season and it's the other way around. when Harden is playing pnr they're packing the paint for him which lets Durant and Westbrook thrive with tons of room to work with. there's even a play when Harden plays fake pick and roll with Collison while the other big is setting a backscreen for Cook and Harden makes a crosscourt pass to the corner. it's unguardable because entire defense is set to stop Harden's drive.

all Harden needs is shooters. but that's not very astonishing, everyone needs shooters. from Jordan to Shaq.

This may be news to you, but Durant averaged 30ppg on 60ts% when Harden was playing 18 minutes per and people were questioning whether or not OKC should have taken Tyreke Evans and Steph Curry over him. I've watched OKC since they were the Sonics, and barely managing to win games. I've followed James Harden since he was beardless and balling at ASU, and Durant since he was a skinny kid that left Oak Hill for Melrose Christian. I know OKC in and out, enough so that I understand Durant makes the game easier for Harden and Westbrook(who are the same tier). Least you forget that it was Kidd and not Marion who was guarding Harden on that game clenching possession last night. We all know who Marion was on.


And people forget that Durant is also very good at running the Pnr, but he's a more versatile offensive player and is often used to open the floor for Harden and Westbrook.

[Bravely Done]

Oh, and if you wanna talk impact, step away from RAPM for a second and hear this: In game one of the Mavs series, after struggling with his shot all night, Durant hits a miracle at the buzzer and a potential first round exit becomes a first round sweep. What could have beeb a disappointing season remains one with legitimate title chances.

OKC now has at least 4 days rest before the second round, and a week or more at most. Allowing them to not only rest Perkins, whose sole reason for being on the team is to roll the team they're likely to face in the next round, but get in some useful practice time before playing this storied Lakers team.

There are some things RAPM cant measure. It's a shame people have become so dependent upon numbers to tell them what they see, as opposed to paying attention to, and taking time to understand the game.

[Doormatt]

There are some things RAPM cant measure. It's a shame people have become so dependent upon numbers to tell them what they see, as opposed to paying attention to, and taking time to understand the game.

what makes you think these things are mutually exclusive? its like one of the dumbest things i read on this board when people assume that when you use numbers that you dont watch/understand the game.

[Krodis]

Oh, and if you wanna talk impact, step away from RAPM for a second and hear this: In game one of the Mavs series, after struggling with his shot all night, Durant hits a miracle at the buzzer and a potential first round exit becomes a first round sweep. What could have beeb a disappointing season remains one with legitimate title chances.

This is possibly the most absurd combination of reductionist logic and hypothetical speculation I've ever seen.