RealGM Top 100 LIST- 2014

[colts18]

Why did the 13 Celtics have comparable team success to Kobe's team despite having much less talent?

They're called injuries.

Kobe and Howard both played 76+ games. The Celtics also had injury issues too (Rondo)

[An Unbiased Fan]

Why did the 13 Celtics have comparable team success to Kobe's team despite having much less talent?

They're called injuries.

Kobe and Howard both played 76+ games. The Celtics also had injury issues too (Rondo)

Dwight was like 60% to start the season and coming off surgery. It should be noted that the Lakers were 25-11 after January. The first half was just a mess with barebones rosters.

[MacGill]

Moved to other thread...thx

[Purch]

Wrong thread^

[john248]

They're called injuries.

Kobe and Howard both played 76+ games. The Celtics also had injury issues too (Rondo)

Dwight was like 60% to start the season and coming off surgery. It should be noted that the Lakers were 25-11 after January. The first half was just a mess with barebones rosters.

Yea, the Lakers were a bit of a mess. Coaching changes just after the season started, injuries with Pau in and out, and Dwight just off surgery. They were quite good after all-star break even if people on this board were like..."oh the refs are helping the Lakers" or if they were bagging on strength of schedule. Kobe played his ass off and carried the team some nights. Hell, he initially played off-ball during the little time Nash was in there until he pretty much had to take over the offense because Nash was just not good anymore.

I like KG as much as the next guy, but he's so far off from what he was in 08 and before. He's pretty much a role player at this point. I think he's great and a top 15 guy nor would I be upset if he was top 10. But jesus...13 KG > Kobe? LOL

[Baller2014]

THE RealGM TOP 100 LIST of 2104

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. LeBron James

Rules: Vote for 1 player. You may change your vote as consensus emerges but if so, go back and EDIT YOUR ORIGINAL POST. Votes without analysis will not be counted. If, after 2 days, there is not a majority consensus, the top; 2 nominees will have a 1 day runoff election to determine the spot on our list. NBA/ABA only, no college, international play, ABL, or pre-NBA play considered.

ELIGIBLE VOTERS

1. penbeast0 (Wizards)
2. DoctorMJ (Lakers)
3. rrravenred (Bucks)
4. tsherkin (?Raptors?)
5. Nate33 (Wizards)

6. TrueLAFan (Clippers) -- WITHDREW
7. DQuinn1575 (Bulls)
8. Narigo (Bulls)
9. Kayess -- INACTIVE
10. bastillon (Rockets) -- INACTIVE

11. baller2014 (Spurs)
12. lorak
13. Texas Chuck (Mavs)
14. JordansBulls (Bulls)
15. Quotatious (Blazers)

16. Gregoire
17. Ardee (Lakers)
18. acrossthecourt
19. Dr Spaceman (Bulls) -- INACTIVE
20. SactoKingsFan (Kings)

21. Jaivl (OKC) -- INACTIVE
22. Heartbreakkid
23. Rich316
24. RSCD3_
25. colts18

26. fpliii (Lakers)
27. Dr. Positivity (Raptors)
28. Owly (Magic)
29. Notanoob (Pistons)
30. Okada (Cavs) -- INACTIVE

31. NyCeEv0 -- INACTIVE
32. Tomas11 (Rockets) -- INACTIVE
33. therealbig3 (Nets)
34. drza (76ers)
35. 90sAllDecade (Rockets)

36. Mutnt
37. Moonbeam (Blazers) -- INACTIVE
38. 0_6
39. An Unbiased Fan (Lakers)
40. DannyNoonan1221 (Bulls)

41 trex_8063 (Bulls)
42. MacGill (Raptors)
43. PCProductions (Warriors)
44. GC Pantalones (Knicks)
45. magicmerl (Magic)

46. B_Creamy (Heat) -- INACTIVE
47. Greatness (Raptors)
48. batmana (Spurs)
49. DHodgkins (Celtics)
50. Basketballefan

51. aal04 -- INACTIVE
52. ElGee (Celtics)
53. Warspite (Pistons)
54. ronnymac2 (Knicks)
55. Rico381 (GSW)

ADDED to Board at #3 DISCUSSION

56. RayBan-Sematra (?Lakers?)
57. Clyde Frazier (Knicks)

TO JOIN at #5 DISCUSSION
58. andrewww (Lakers)
59. john248

To Join at #9 discussion
60. shutupandjam

Probationary:

lukekarts
Ryaga Hibiki

Hey Pen. I think an inactive list is a good idea, I assume they'll need several non-voting, participatory threads before they're reactivated to vote? That said, Jaivl had been participating. He posted multiple times as recently as in thread #7 and #5, and has been going through reading all the posts (I can tell because he keeps +1'ing stuff, he's +1'd at least 5 posts from thread #8). Not sure how he's more inactive than some of those left on.

[WhateverBro]

So you agree 2011 Kobe > KG.

I agree you could say 2012 KG > Kobe, mainly behind the Playoffs.

2013 Kobe though was a return to his prime, offensively at least. He had 27/6/6 on 57% TS, are you seriously telling me those aren't MVP level numbers? He put up an insane number of monster performances on a team that quite frankly was so dysfunctional they shouldn't have made the Playoffs.

If you really think KG's 14/8 was so impressive, then I'm not going to argue it with you, because no matter how good his defense was (and personally I don't think a 37 year old KG is having DPOY impact anymore. Solid, yeah, but insane to think he was THAT impactful in his 29 mpg), it's not logical AT ALL to rank 2013 KG over Kobe.

Kobe was at worst, a top 10 player in the league. KG might not have been top 25 in 2013.

What exactly makes you "think" that a 37 year old KG wasn't having a DPOY impact? Look at the on / off splits, RAPM, DRTG. Boston had no business being top 5 defensively that year, especially with Rondo going down after what, 30 or so games.

Garnett was clearly a top 3 defender in the league that year.

Kobes on the other hand was a net negative that year defensively. He had his worst defensive season of his career and was routinely taking plays off defensively. He was brutal.

Zach Lowe had a great piece on Kobes defense that year. http://grantland.com/the-triangle/an-op ... s-defense/

[ardee]

So you agree 2011 Kobe > KG.

I agree you could say 2012 KG > Kobe, mainly behind the Playoffs.

2013 Kobe though was a return to his prime, offensively at least. He had 27/6/6 on 57% TS, are you seriously telling me those aren't MVP level numbers? He put up an insane number of monster performances on a team that quite frankly was so dysfunctional they shouldn't have made the Playoffs.

If you really think KG's 14/8 was so impressive, then I'm not going to argue it with you, because no matter how good his defense was (and personally I don't think a 37 year old KG is having DPOY impact anymore. Solid, yeah, but insane to think he was THAT impactful in his 29 mpg), it's not logical AT ALL to rank 2013 KG over Kobe.

Kobe was at worst, a top 10 player in the league. KG might not have been top 25 in 2013.

What exactly makes you "think" that a 37 year old KG wasn't having a DPOY impact? Look at the on / off splits, RAPM, DRTG. Boston had no business being top 5 defensively that year, especially with Rondo going down after what, 30 or so games.

Garnett was clearly a top 3 defender in the league that year.

Kobes on the other hand was a net negative that year defensively. He had his worst defensive season of his career and was routinely taking plays off defensively. He was brutal.

Zach Lowe had a great piece on Kobes defense that year. http://grantland.com/the-triangle/an-op ... s-defense/

They weren't top 5, I don't know where you're getting your numbers from. They were 7th, at 103.3.... Not exactly amazing by even their own standards.

And he played 29 mpg, and was a role player on offense.

No amount of perceived defensive impact is going to make up the VAST difference in production that year. Kobe was throwing up multiple 40/10 games, putting up LeBron/Jordan numbers after the ASB. It's not even close, the comparison is laughable. You might as well rank David Robinson as one of the best in the league during his late career, if you think 2013 KG was that good.

Tell me, you really think the Lakers would have been better with KG in place of Kobe? They wouldn't have even cracked 30 wins, Kobe must have won like 15 games for them by himself. Kobe spent most of the season in the top 3 of the MVP ladder on nba.com, KG only made the AS team because of the weakest selection of big men in a conference in history. I'm literally shaking my head, this comparison is the strangest thing I've ever heard.

Anyway I'll be more than happy to engage you on this in the project itself, penbeast has asked us to keep player debates out of this thread.

[penbeast0]

Spoiler:

THE RealGM TOP 100 LIST of 2104

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. LeBron James

Rules: Vote for 1 player. You may change your vote as consensus emerges but if so, go back and EDIT YOUR ORIGINAL POST. Votes without analysis will not be counted. If, after 2 days, there is not a majority consensus, the top; 2 nominees will have a 1 day runoff election to determine the spot on our list. NBA/ABA only, no college, international play, ABL, or pre-NBA play considered.

ELIGIBLE VOTERS

1. penbeast0 (Wizards)
2. DoctorMJ (Lakers)
3. rrravenred (Bucks)
4. tsherkin (?Raptors?)
5. Nate33 (Wizards)

6. TrueLAFan (Clippers) -- WITHDREW
7. DQuinn1575 (Bulls)
8. Narigo (Bulls)
9. Kayess -- INACTIVE
10. bastillon (Rockets) -- INACTIVE

11. baller2014 (Spurs)
12. lorak
13. Texas Chuck (Mavs)
14. JordansBulls (Bulls)
15. Quotatious (Blazers)

16. Gregoire
17. Ardee (Lakers)
18. acrossthecourt
19. Dr Spaceman (Bulls) -- INACTIVE
20. SactoKingsFan (Kings)

21. Jaivl (OKC) -- INACTIVE
22. Heartbreakkid
23. Rich316
24. RSCD3_
25. colts18

26. fpliii (Lakers)
27. Dr. Positivity (Raptors)
28. Owly (Magic)
29. Notanoob (Pistons)
30. Okada (Cavs) -- INACTIVE

31. NyCeEv0 -- INACTIVE
32. Tomas11 (Rockets) -- INACTIVE
33. therealbig3 (Nets)
34. drza (76ers)
35. 90sAllDecade (Rockets)

36. Mutnt
37. Moonbeam (Blazers) -- INACTIVE
38. 0_6
39. An Unbiased Fan (Lakers)
40. DannyNoonan1221 (Bulls)

41 trex_8063 (Bulls)
42. MacGill (Raptors)
43. PCProductions (Warriors)
44. GC Pantalones (Knicks)
45. magicmerl (Magic)

46. B_Creamy (Heat) -- INACTIVE
47. Greatness (Raptors)
48. batmana (Spurs)
49. DHodgkins (Celtics)
50. Basketballefan

51. aal04 -- INACTIVE
52. ElGee (Celtics)
53. Warspite (Pistons)
54. ronnymac2 (Knicks)
55. Rico381 (GSW)

ADDED to Board at #3 DISCUSSION

56. RayBan-Sematra (?Lakers?)
57. Clyde Frazier (Knicks)

TO JOIN at #5 DISCUSSION
58. andrewww (Lakers)
59. john248

To Join at #9 discussion
60. shutupandjam

Probationary:

lukekarts
Ryaga Hibiki

Hey Pen. I think an inactive list is a good idea, I assume they'll need several non-voting, participatory threads before they're reactivated to vote? That said, Jaivl had been participating. He posted multiple times as recently as in thread #7 and #5, and has been going through reading all the posts (I can tell because he keeps +1'ing stuff, he's +1'd at least 5 posts from thread #8). Not sure how he's more inactive than some of those left on.

Thanks, I'll fix it.

[penbeast0]

I have a question about the voting process.

As of now, I have Hakeem as the best player on the board, so I gave him my 8th vote.


However, the vote is coming between Magic and Bird.

Am I allowed to vote for Bird, who I think is better than Magic before the runoff, even if I do not think either is better than Hakeem? I dont want to make things seem too political or like I have an agenda, but that would best reflect my opinion on the list.

Did you notice that if you had done that, Bird might be in the runoff instead of Hakeem? Strategic voting only makes sense if your vote will be the difference maker as to either (a) whether there is a runoff or (b) who gets into the runoff. Not if you are trying to inflate the 2nd place candidate before the runoff starts (unless you aren't going to be around in which case it is fine).

[Purch]

I'm curious, have you guys ever considered doing a top 10 coaches of all time project?

[penbeast0]

I did a top 20 coaches project a few years ago. Why don't you start it up here? You don't have to wait for us to start projects.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Here's my request to join.

[WhateverBro]

They weren't top 5, I don't know where you're getting your numbers from. They were 7th, at 103.3.... Not exactly amazing by even their own standards.

And he played 29 mpg, and was a role player on offense.

No amount of perceived defensive impact is going to make up the VAST difference in production that year. Kobe was throwing up multiple 40/10 games, putting up LeBron/Jordan numbers after the ASB. It's not even close, the comparison is laughable. You might as well rank David Robinson as one of the best in the league during his late career, if you think 2013 KG was that good.

Tell me, you really think the Lakers would have been better with KG in place of Kobe? They wouldn't have even cracked 30 wins, Kobe must have won like 15 games for them by himself. Kobe spent most of the season in the top 3 of the MVP ladder on nba.com, KG only made the AS team because of the weakest selection of big men in a conference in history. I'm literally shaking my head, this comparison is the strangest thing I've ever heard.

Anyway I'll be more than happy to engage you on this in the project itself, penbeast has asked us to keep player debates out of this thread.

Yeah, my bad. They were ranked 7th defensively that year.

I actually just wondered what you based your opinion that Garnett was not a DPOY caliber player that year? But you did not address that, nor did you address Kobes horrific defense that year. Kobe being on the MVP ladder on nba.com means literally nothing to me.. We already know that those are heavily biased towards offensive players. You even have cases were defenders gets credit in a DPOY race ('14 Noah) just for his offense. I don't put any stock into any award basically.

Anyway, I'm not a part of the project but if I'm allowed to chime in during the discussions in the threads we can discuss it further there. I don't want to derail this thread anymore.

[FJS]

I would love to join.

[penbeast0]

Join the discussion FJS. It's at a very interesting point. I will be reevaluating the judging pool after this round (or the next if I am pressed for time badly) and bringing on new judges.

[Greatness]

I'd like to respectfully withdraw. I love the discussion going on and will continue to read through the threads but I unfortunately cannot contribute due to a very busy summer school schedule. Thanks penbeast0 for accepting my initial request to join and keep up the great work guys!

[The Infamous1]

After the last 3 greats of the 00s go(Kobe/Dirk/kg)I'm interested in seeing where Durant places on this list.

His prime level of play is on par with any of the rest of the candidates and he's had as much if not more team success as the franchise piece than Guys like Ewing,drob,Oscar, K.Malone etc

[JeepCSC]

Reading the thread for #11 is fascinating. I feel like I'm only getting the later stages of this debate on RAPM, something I wished I could follow completely. It feels like Oscar is benefitting from a lack of specificity on his game due to distance in the past. And it feels like Garnett is benefitting from his best aspect (defense) being the one we have a harder time pinning down. Kobe's offense is arguably the most debated and dissected in NBA history, thanks to a multitude of stats the last decade, and it feels like that is coming back to haunt him. While Garnett is a superstar and one of the best of his era, it is weird to think he could get in over contemporary Kobe. Not impossible, as I am learning things while reading, but weird nonetheless.

[Gifted Mind]

What is the criteria being used to rank players here? Is it based on greatness and career accomplishments/achievements or based solely on basketball and how well the player played in their respective primes?