RealGM Top 100 List #16

[Doctor MJ]

To AUF's point:

Us having 6 guys from the current era be in the top 16 is something that should make everyone reflect and see if they are perhaps biased toward recency.

That said, thing is, it's not like there are 5 clear cut top guys by all perspectives with Dirk being way far down from them. It's pretty easy to find metrics that make Dirk look better than some of his contemporaries that are already in. To refuse to include him simply because 6 is too many isn't the way to go.

[ThaRegul8r]

That's not a diss on Dirk, but reality. How can a guy who wasn't even Top 5 in his era, be #16 all-time?

Of course he is. Duncan, KG, Kobe, then Dirk. Shaq and LeBron are from different "eras" IMO... unless you want to say Malone wasn't top 5 in his era either (Jordan, Magic, Bird, Olajuwon, Shaq). Same with Moses (Jordan, Kareem, Erving, Bird, Magic...).

Anyway, it's a bad argument. Why should you penalize a player for playing in a crowded era?

Vote: Dirk Nowitzki. More easy to build around, can adapt to all offensive systems, PO-proven.

I use the 00's as his era, and I have Kobe/Duncan/Shaq/Lebron/KG ahead of Dirk. All 5 had more Top 5 seasons in that span than Dirk.

Malone was definitely a Top 5 player for the 90's behind MJ, Hakeem. He was Top 5 arguable some years in the 80's too.

There's a problem with that though. Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, LeBron and KG are all voted in in this project as ahead of both Dirk and Malone. I don't see how it can be held against him that he played in an era with five other players better than both himself and Malone while Malone played in an era with only two players better than himself and Dirk.

[BmanInBigD]

That's the problem with these arbitrary Top 5, All-NBA, etc accolades. They don't cross eras as some eras have more top players. Dirk would have had more Top 5 seasons during Malone's era, same with All-NBA selections. Terrible criteria for all-time lists.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Of course he is. Duncan, KG, Kobe, then Dirk. Shaq and LeBron are from different "eras" IMO... unless you want to say Malone wasn't top 5 in his era either (Jordan, Magic, Bird, Olajuwon, Shaq). Same with Moses (Jordan, Kareem, Erving, Bird, Magic...).

Anyway, it's a bad argument. Why should you penalize a player for playing in a crowded era?

Vote: Dirk Nowitzki. More easy to build around, can adapt to all offensive systems, PO-proven.

I use the 00's as his era, and I have Kobe/Duncan/Shaq/Lebron/KG ahead of Dirk. All 5 had more Top 5 seasons in that span than Dirk.

Malone was definitely a Top 5 player for the 90's behind MJ, Hakeem. He was Top 5 arguable some years in the 80's too.

There's a problem with that though. Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, LeBron and KG are all voted in in this project as ahead of both Dirk and Malone. I don't see how it can be held against him that he played in an era with five other players better than both himself and Malone while Malone played in an era with only two players better than himself and Dirk.

I would agree, but for me, KG went too high also. I actually had him around this spot, and Dirk closer to #19-#20. The fact we have 6 out of the 16 players being taken from this era kinda tells me there is definitely a bit of a recency bias going on. basically, older players without the benefit of modern metrics are being hurt, imo.

But this is just how I usually rank players. I tend to weigh both era dominance with era portability.

[An Unbiased Fan]

To AUF's point:

Us having 6 guys from the current era be in the top 16 is something that should make everyone reflect and see if they are perhaps biased toward recency.

That said, thing is, it's not like there are 5 clear cut top guys by all perspectives with Dirk being way far down from them. It's pretty easy to find metrics that make Dirk look better than some of his contemporaries that are already in. To refuse to include him simply because 6 is too many isn't the way to go.

Good points. When I say I can't see a player who wasn't Top 5 of his own era this high, I should mention that its because I don't see any era being that dominant over the others. In the 2011 project I felt there was a bit too much tilt towards the "Immortal 6", which probably pushed recent guys further down than they should have been in that project.

[An Unbiased Fan]

That's the problem with these arbitrary Top 5, All-NBA, etc accolades. They don't cross eras as some eras have more top players. Dirk would have had more Top 5 seasons during Malone's era, same with All-NBA selections. Terrible criteria for all-time lists.

Well I didn't bring up All-NBA selections for this very reason.

Top 5 seasons however....have little to do with accolades. We were using our own opinion for that. And sorry, but i don't see Dirk being a Top 5 player more years in Malone's era at all.

Based on age:
1986 - 01 Dirk
1987 - 02 Dirk
1988 - 03 Dirk
1989 - 04 Dirk
1990 - 05 Dirk
1991 - 06 Dirk
1992 - 07 Dirk
1993 - 08 Dirk
1994 - 09 Dirk
1995 - 10 Dirk
1996 - 11 Dirk
1997 - 12 Dirk
1998 - 13 Dirk
1999 - 14 Dirk

[FX20014]

That's the problem with these arbitrary Top 5, All-NBA, etc accolades. They don't cross eras as some eras have more top players. Dirk would have had more Top 5 seasons during Malone's era, same with All-NBA selections. Terrible criteria for all-time lists.

What? I think it's alright for people to vote Dirk ahead of Karl and Moses, but personally I wouldn't. The thing is Dirk wasn't a top 5 player during the post Jordan/Hakeem/Malone/Barkley era. Post Jordan era I got Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Lebron ahead of Dirk.

[BmanInBigD]

That's the problem with these arbitrary Top 5, All-NBA, etc accolades. They don't cross eras as some eras have more top players. Dirk would have had more Top 5 seasons during Malone's era, same with All-NBA selections. Terrible criteria for all-time lists.

What? I think it's alright for people to vote Dirk ahead of Karl and Moses, but personally I wouldn't. The thing is Dirk wasn't a top 5 player during the post Jordan/Hakeem/Malone/Barkley era. Post Jordan era I got Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Lebron ahead of Dirk.

That has basically nothing to do with what I said.

[FX20014]

That's the problem with these arbitrary Top 5, All-NBA, etc accolades. They don't cross eras as some eras have more top players. Dirk would have had more Top 5 seasons during Malone's era, same with All-NBA selections. Terrible criteria for all-time lists.

What? I think it's alright for people to vote Dirk ahead of Karl and Moses, but personally I wouldn't. The thing is Dirk wasn't a top 5 player during the post Jordan/Hakeem/Malone/Barkley era. Post Jordan era I got Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Lebron ahead of Dirk.

That has basically nothing to do with what I said.

Ok, do your thing. You said Dirk would have more top 5 seasons during Malone's era. How would u know?

[Ryoga Hibiki]

If there are no other objections, I will take magicmer1's count as gospel and declare that the winner is

DIRK NOWITZKI

Dirk does his happy dance

you were looking forward to post this for 16 threads, weren't you?

[ShaqAttack3234]

ElGee said some examples. Malone had his bad games, but he had some of the best playoffs games one player could had.

Same as Dirk.. he had his bad games either, probably more than Malones did:

Some Examples: (searching for under 42% FG, who are terrible games for a player like Dirk)
2001: vs Utah Jazz Won 3-2
G1: 35 FG% G2: 27.5 FG% G5: 25.% FG%
2001: Vs SA Lost 4-1
G1: 23.1 FG% G2: 30% FG G3: 33% FG

2002: vs Wolves Won 3-0
G2: 42 %FG

VS Kings Lost
G1: 33.3 FG G3: 40 % FG G4: 32.1 % FG

2003: vs Blazers Won 4-3
G2: 32 % FG G6: 18 % FG

2003: vs Kings Won 4-3
G4: 28.6 FG% G5: 33.3 FG% G6: 35 % FG

2003: Vs SA (he went injuried after game 3) Lost 4-2
G2: 42% FG G3: 35 %


2004: Vs Kings (lost 4-1)
G4: 22.2 FG%

2005 Vs Rockets (won 4-3)
G1: 26% G2: 38% G3: 28.6 % G5: 40% G6: 22% G7: 35%
Altough some people say Karl had better supporting cast, I can tell you no one Jazz roster could pass a round with those FG% of Karl Malone.

2005 Vs Suns (Lost 4-2)
G2: 33.3 FG% G6: 36% FG

2006 Vs Spurs (won 4-3)
G1: 40 % G3: 33.3%
2006 VS Suns (won 4-2)
G4: 23.1 % G6: 40 % FG
2006 vs Heat (lost 2-4)
G1: 28 % G4: 14.3% G5: 42%

2007 vs GSW (lost 2-4)
G1: 25% G6: 15.4 %

2008 vs Hornets (lost 1-4)
G1: 42% G5: 38%

2009 vs Spurs (won 4-1)
G2: 21%

2010 vs Spurs (lost 4-2)
G2: 37% G4: 40%

2011 vs Blazers (won 4-2)
G1: 35% G2: 40% G4: 41%
VS Lakers (won 4-0)
G4: 38.9%

2011 vs OKC (won 4-1)
G3: 33.3%

2011 vs Heat (won 4-2)
G1: 38.9 % G4: 31.6 G6: 33.3

Dirk played great playoffs, but 26 ppg in 41.6 FG, it's not better than Karl Malone's 97 and 98 Finals. A lor of people said Dirk made it for himself (he played great vs Lakers and OKC) but his teammates helped a lot, and of course Lebron did not have his best series either.

2012 vs OKC (lost 4-0)
G3: 40% G4: 40%

2013: Missed playoffs

2014: Lost 3-4 vs SA
G1: 28.6 % G2: 36% G4: 36% G6: 38.1%


As you watch, Dirk had a plenty of horrible nights shooting in PO (his better weapon) His TS is nice, because he is a great 3pt Shooter and a 90% FT shooter, but it's not like he is unguardable.
He did not shoot better than Malone in PO, he did not scored more. He did not played better than Malone in Finals (utah Jazz finals)

97 Finals Malone > 2006 Finals Dirk
98 Finals Malone > 2011 Finals Dirk

The main difference? Dirk won one ring, when Lebron did not show and he get some help (some unexpected help from the one like Terry with 18 ppg or Marion with 13 ppg)

Jordan did show, as the rest of the Bulls, and Karl had a better teammates around (stockton and Hornacek) but they did not help in scoring, being Hornacek the secong one with 10 ppg and stockton the 3rd with 9 ppg

Nobody is disputing that Malone was a great player, so of course he had some great games, after all, he played nearly 200 playoff games, but I'm looking at overall performance, and here's Dirk from '02-'11 vs Malone from '90-'98.

Dirk, 26.1 ppg, 10.6 rpg, 2.7 apg, 2.4 TO, 1 bpg, 1.1 spg, 46.7 FG%, 49.6 eFG%, 58.5 TS%, 114 games
Malone- 27.1 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2.7 TO, 0.9 bpg, 1 spg, 46.6 FG%, 53.2 TS%, 114 games

Malone scores an extra ppg, so there's that, but that's nowhere near as big as the gap in efficiency, which isn't close. Dirk shot the same percentage....before considering 3s and free throws. Malone rebounded better(16.6 TRB% to 14.7%), but that's before considering where they played on the floor. The gap is only in offensive rebounding, and while it's true that fewer offensive rebounds go uncontested, much of this difference can be accounted for by where they played offensively since Dirk held a 25.2 to 24.9 DRB% edge, so they were virtually even there. And I don't think Malone being in the paint helped his teams offensively any more than Dirk spacing the floor did.

You could say that Malone from 94ish on was a better passer, and I wouldn't argue, but I would argue that the unique match up problems Dirk caused made a bigger impact, especially since Dirk isn't a bad passer himself, and that Malone's ability to get his within Utah's offense doesn't help his case because Dirk's superior ability to get his in the playoffs/vs tougher defenses ect. was more important, especially since Dirk's skill set was one that can be fit into a variety of systems well.

Dirk was just generally better than Malone in the playoffs. Malone did have the dominant '92 run, but a run at that level looks to be somewhat of an anomaly for him. He was solid in '98, but we're not talking all-time great stuff there.

Nobody is saying that come April, Malone suddenly forgot how to play basketball while Dirk could do no wrong. That doesn't mean they were equal in the playoffs either.

[FJS]

Nobody is disputing that Malone was a great player, so of course he had some great games, after all, he played nearly 200 playoff games, but I'm looking at overall performance, and here's Dirk from '02-'11 vs Malone from '90-'98.

Dirk, 26.1 ppg, 10.6 rpg, 2.7 apg, 2.4 TO, 1 bpg, 1.1 spg, 46.7 FG%, 49.6 eFG%, 58.5 TS%, 114 games
Malone- 27.1 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2.7 TO, 0.9 bpg, 1 spg, 46.6 FG%, 53.2 TS%, 114 games

Malone scores an extra ppg, so there's that, but that's nowhere near as big as the gap in efficiency, which isn't close. Dirk shot the same percentage....before considering 3s and free throws. Malone rebounded better(16.6 TRB% to 14.7%), but that's before considering where they played on the floor. The gap is only in offensive rebounding, and while it's true that fewer offensive rebounds go uncontested, much of this difference can be accounted for by where they played offensively since Dirk held a 25.2 to 24.9 DRB% edge, so they were virtually even there. And I don't think Malone being in the paint helped his teams offensively any more than Dirk spacing the floor did.

You could say that Malone from 94ish on was a better passer, and I wouldn't argue, but I would argue that the unique match up problems Dirk caused made a bigger impact, especially since Dirk isn't a bad passer himself, and that Malone's ability to get his within Utah's offense doesn't help his case because Dirk's superior ability to get his in the playoffs/vs tougher defenses ect. was more important, especially since Dirk's skill set was one that can be fit into a variety of systems well.

Dirk was just generally better than Malone in the playoffs. Malone did have the dominant '92 run, but a run at that level looks to be somewhat of an anomaly for him. He was solid in '98, but we're not talking all-time great stuff there.

Nobody is saying that come April, Malone suddenly forgot how to play basketball while Dirk could do no wrong. That doesn't mean they were equal in the playoffs either.

You see stats, and you watch Malone did better than... TS.
TS it's interesting.
For Example Shaq is only 38 in NBA carreer in TS. Pretty similar than Malone. Shaq was a guy who scored in a 58%FG for his carreer. (56%FG). People like Stoudemire, Dantley or Barkley had a better TS than him in some seasons, scoring in the high 20's, even in the 30's.
Still, I rather Shaq altough he was a liability in FT, and his FT were going to suffer.
Another shooters like Miller, Mullin had great ts fue to their 3pt.

At the end of the day Malone in that stretch scored 133 points more than Dirk.

KG had worse TS% in Playoffs than Malone and was selected 13th... Wilt too, even other known as great Playoffs performers like Isiah Thomas, Tony Parker or Wilkins to name a few were worse.

TS% in Playoffs show that the ones like Maxwell, Rambis, Hawkins, or K. Smith are in the top 10, I think it's not the best metric to determinate who was better.

[mdonnelly1989]

3 MVP's
1 Ring
1 Finals MVP


Moses Malone hands down based on accolades and overall skill level.