'17-'18 POY discussion

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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#261 » by bondom34 » Tue Feb 6, 2018 12:18 am

dhsilv2 wrote:I think people have forgotten how weak the OKC bench was expected to be going into this year and likely are overrating melo.

Yep, and PG running the bench units has been a train wreck (which is part of why some of his numbers are funky even though when he plays w/ Westbrook he's been amazing). I write for the Thunder SB nation site and wrote this late December, but the trend still holds last I checked.

https://www.welcometoloudcity.com/2017/12/20/16799438/thunder-carmelo-anthony-bench-role-player
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#262 » by Jaivl » Tue Feb 6, 2018 12:35 am

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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#263 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Feb 6, 2018 1:04 am

Jaivl wrote:
Read on Twitter


Wow, that's pretty surprising. Holiday?
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#264 » by E-Balla » Tue Feb 6, 2018 1:55 am

The-Power wrote:Or Butler.

As E-Balla says again Butler didn't improve and he was better last year.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#265 » by E-Balla » Tue Feb 6, 2018 2:00 am

Jaivl wrote:
Read on Twitter

What is he calling vanilla? Because Jrue was 13th in RAPM last week. I understand slight differences can come from different software and weights but I'm curious...
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#266 » by ardee » Tue Feb 6, 2018 1:32 pm

In essence, rankings so far comes down to evaluating missed time. Because otherwise I don't think anyone can dispute that in the games he's played, Curry is the clear no. 1.

I would put forth two separate top fives:

Level of play in games played:

1. Steph Curry
2. James Harden
3. Russell Westbrook
4. Jimmy Butler
5. Giannis Antetokoumpo

Total value contributed:

1. James Harden
2. Russell Westbrook
3. Jimmy Butler
4. Giannis Antetomoumpo
5. Anthony Davis
(And I have zero idea where Curry fits in this.)
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#267 » by ardee » Tue Feb 6, 2018 2:42 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:As of right now if I were to make my top 5:

1. Jimmy Butler - the Wolves have been the story of the season and there’s nothing to indicate they’d be any more than a bad team without him. Wiggins wanders around the floor like an alien who once read a brochure about how basketball works, Karl Towns either has his motor running WAY too hot or WAY too cold, Jeff Teague looks confusedly at connect four like a chessboard, and yet the Wolves are among the class of the West.

Butler’s first step is the best in the entire league, and he’s gotten so good at leveraging off balance defenders into playmaking lanes. He’s the best shot maker currently other than Harden and Curry, he’s got the point forward role down to a science, and Minnesota’s defense defense completely falls apart when he’s not directing trafffic and setting a tone. I think he’s currently the most versatile player in the entire league, when he’s out there you can palpably see the effect even on mundane things like defensive rebounding. The dude is just good.

2. James Harden - I’ve been critical of his style of play this year, but I can’t deny it’s been effective. He’s clearly been more important than Paul this year, even if I consider All the better player at this point, and his style is really good at ensuring the team stays afloat no matter what pieces surround him. The problem is, though, that it truly doesn’t matter what pieces are around him, and in a bad way. The Rockets have more offensive talent than anyone outside the Warriors, and yet their offense is the most rigid and predictable in the entire league. I don’t want to put this all on Harden but he’s not helping maters.

3. Greek Freak -Wonderful breakout year he’s been having. An absolute joy to watch. In a chaotic, mismanaged, injury-riddled season for his team, he’s been the constant. I think he has big holes in his game, and as a player overall I don’t think he’s been quite in this tier, but a lot of guys have missed time or moped around and Giannis as been there killing it on both ends every night for his team. With Jabari back they may be ready to make a real push.

4. Stephen Curry- He’s missed a lot of time, but I just can’t deny that he’s in his own class as an offensive player. I mean the team was barely above water on offense without him, and their ORTG with him on the floor is 123. I think this is the best he’s ever been in his career and as talented as Durant is there is a clear hierarchy in Golden State. The team just doesn’t respond to him the way they do Curry.

5. Russell Westbrook - it feels weird because he’s had an extremely down year, but the other guy I’d consider here is Chris Paul and Westbrook has played in like twice as many games. He’s the one here I feel most confident will drop out of the top 5, but it’s possible I’m just overreacting to OKC’s slow start on offense. RPM shows the team still lives and dies by his offense, and to be honest I’ve never been a believer in Paul George. OKC is a good team- much better than last year, and Russell has shown a bit of growth in his approach this year. I think the guys really respond to his energy and motor, even if his defense is not where I’d like and his tunnel vision more severe than anyone else here.

Rounding out the top ten, in some as yet undetermined order: Paul, Davis, Embiid, Kyrie, Horford.

I don’t know what to do about LeBron. I can’t help but feel he’s toxic right now and Cleveland has been such a disappointment I can’t honestly put him in the top ten.
5.

EDIT: Towns is inching closer and closer to top 10 consideration for me. He’s been outstanding on offense.


Durant doesn't even get consideration for top 10? I despise the guy but he does exactly what is asked of him.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#268 » by E-Balla » Tue Feb 6, 2018 3:09 pm

ardee wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:As of right now if I were to make my top 5:

1. Jimmy Butler - the Wolves have been the story of the season and there’s nothing to indicate they’d be any more than a bad team without him. Wiggins wanders around the floor like an alien who once read a brochure about how basketball works, Karl Towns either has his motor running WAY too hot or WAY too cold, Jeff Teague looks confusedly at connect four like a chessboard, and yet the Wolves are among the class of the West.

Butler’s first step is the best in the entire league, and he’s gotten so good at leveraging off balance defenders into playmaking lanes. He’s the best shot maker currently other than Harden and Curry, he’s got the point forward role down to a science, and Minnesota’s defense defense completely falls apart when he’s not directing trafffic and setting a tone. I think he’s currently the most versatile player in the entire league, when he’s out there you can palpably see the effect even on mundane things like defensive rebounding. The dude is just good.

2. James Harden - I’ve been critical of his style of play this year, but I can’t deny it’s been effective. He’s clearly been more important than Paul this year, even if I consider All the better player at this point, and his style is really good at ensuring the team stays afloat no matter what pieces surround him. The problem is, though, that it truly doesn’t matter what pieces are around him, and in a bad way. The Rockets have more offensive talent than anyone outside the Warriors, and yet their offense is the most rigid and predictable in the entire league. I don’t want to put this all on Harden but he’s not helping maters.

3. Greek Freak -Wonderful breakout year he’s been having. An absolute joy to watch. In a chaotic, mismanaged, injury-riddled season for his team, he’s been the constant. I think he has big holes in his game, and as a player overall I don’t think he’s been quite in this tier, but a lot of guys have missed time or moped around and Giannis as been there killing it on both ends every night for his team. With Jabari back they may be ready to make a real push.

4. Stephen Curry- He’s missed a lot of time, but I just can’t deny that he’s in his own class as an offensive player. I mean the team was barely above water on offense without him, and their ORTG with him on the floor is 123. I think this is the best he’s ever been in his career and as talented as Durant is there is a clear hierarchy in Golden State. The team just doesn’t respond to him the way they do Curry.

5. Russell Westbrook - it feels weird because he’s had an extremely down year, but the other guy I’d consider here is Chris Paul and Westbrook has played in like twice as many games. He’s the one here I feel most confident will drop out of the top 5, but it’s possible I’m just overreacting to OKC’s slow start on offense. RPM shows the team still lives and dies by his offense, and to be honest I’ve never been a believer in Paul George. OKC is a good team- much better than last year, and Russell has shown a bit of growth in his approach this year. I think the guys really respond to his energy and motor, even if his defense is not where I’d like and his tunnel vision more severe than anyone else here.

Rounding out the top ten, in some as yet undetermined order: Paul, Davis, Embiid, Kyrie, Horford.

I don’t know what to do about LeBron. I can’t help but feel he’s toxic right now and Cleveland has been such a disappointment I can’t honestly put him in the top ten.
5.

EDIT: Towns is inching closer and closer to top 10 consideration for me. He’s been outstanding on offense.


Durant doesn't even get consideration for top 10? I despise the guy but he does exactly what is asked of him.

Which is not move the needle in any meaningful way. I considered him before when Curry was hurt and he still didn't end up high on my list mainly because he doesn't really matter at all.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#269 » by Dr Spaceman » Tue Feb 6, 2018 3:55 pm

ardee wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:As of right now if I were to make my top 5:

1. Jimmy Butler - the Wolves have been the story of the season and there’s nothing to indicate they’d be any more than a bad team without him. Wiggins wanders around the floor like an alien who once read a brochure about how basketball works, Karl Towns either has his motor running WAY too hot or WAY too cold, Jeff Teague looks confusedly at connect four like a chessboard, and yet the Wolves are among the class of the West.

Butler’s first step is the best in the entire league, and he’s gotten so good at leveraging off balance defenders into playmaking lanes. He’s the best shot maker currently other than Harden and Curry, he’s got the point forward role down to a science, and Minnesota’s defense defense completely falls apart when he’s not directing trafffic and setting a tone. I think he’s currently the most versatile player in the entire league, when he’s out there you can palpably see the effect even on mundane things like defensive rebounding. The dude is just good.

2. James Harden - I’ve been critical of his style of play this year, but I can’t deny it’s been effective. He’s clearly been more important than Paul this year, even if I consider All the better player at this point, and his style is really good at ensuring the team stays afloat no matter what pieces surround him. The problem is, though, that it truly doesn’t matter what pieces are around him, and in a bad way. The Rockets have more offensive talent than anyone outside the Warriors, and yet their offense is the most rigid and predictable in the entire league. I don’t want to put this all on Harden but he’s not helping maters.

3. Greek Freak -Wonderful breakout year he’s been having. An absolute joy to watch. In a chaotic, mismanaged, injury-riddled season for his team, he’s been the constant. I think he has big holes in his game, and as a player overall I don’t think he’s been quite in this tier, but a lot of guys have missed time or moped around and Giannis as been there killing it on both ends every night for his team. With Jabari back they may be ready to make a real push.

4. Stephen Curry- He’s missed a lot of time, but I just can’t deny that he’s in his own class as an offensive player. I mean the team was barely above water on offense without him, and their ORTG with him on the floor is 123. I think this is the best he’s ever been in his career and as talented as Durant is there is a clear hierarchy in Golden State. The team just doesn’t respond to him the way they do Curry.

5. Russell Westbrook - it feels weird because he’s had an extremely down year, but the other guy I’d consider here is Chris Paul and Westbrook has played in like twice as many games. He’s the one here I feel most confident will drop out of the top 5, but it’s possible I’m just overreacting to OKC’s slow start on offense. RPM shows the team still lives and dies by his offense, and to be honest I’ve never been a believer in Paul George. OKC is a good team- much better than last year, and Russell has shown a bit of growth in his approach this year. I think the guys really respond to his energy and motor, even if his defense is not where I’d like and his tunnel vision more severe than anyone else here.

Rounding out the top ten, in some as yet undetermined order: Paul, Davis, Embiid, Kyrie, Horford.

I don’t know what to do about LeBron. I can’t help but feel he’s toxic right now and Cleveland has been such a disappointment I can’t honestly put him in the top ten.
5.

EDIT: Towns is inching closer and closer to top 10 consideration for me. He’s been outstanding on offense.


Durant doesn't even get consideration for top 10? I despise the guy but he does exactly what is asked of him.


Ah I actually completely forgot about him. He’s having a down year by his standards but yeah I’d have him top 10 for sure.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#270 » by eminence » Tue Feb 6, 2018 4:29 pm

Hmm, KD's still within striking distance, but I don't think he'd make my top 10 right now. Dray has pretty clearly been the second best Warrior imo.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#271 » by Dr Spaceman » Tue Feb 6, 2018 6:05 pm

eminence wrote:Hmm, KD's still within striking distance, but I don't think he'd make my top 10 right now. Dray has pretty clearly been the second best Warrior imo.


Honestly only if you want to give him a legacy ranking. His defense has fallen off in a massive way this year. If KD has been coasting then we need another term for what Draymond is doing because it’s on another level.

Not that it truly matters, but to give someone a top 10 ranking right now I need to see top 10 level play, and Draymond has not been that. His net rating is 0, he’s 26th in RPM and by the eye test he’s just not the same disruptive force.

It makes sense, though, considering he’s the only Warrior who makes his living on his motor.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#272 » by eminence » Tue Feb 6, 2018 6:31 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
eminence wrote:Hmm, KD's still within striking distance, but I don't think he'd make my top 10 right now. Dray has pretty clearly been the second best Warrior imo.


Honestly only if you want to give him a legacy ranking. His defense has fallen off in a massive way this year. If KD has been coasting then we need another term for what Draymond is doing because it’s on another level.

Not that it truly matters, but to give someone a top 10 ranking right now I need to see top 10 level play, and Draymond has not been that. His net rating is 0, he’s 26th in RPM and by the eye test he’s just not the same disruptive force.

It makes sense, though, considering he’s the only Warrior who makes his living on his motor.


His defense has fallen off in a massive way (compared to himself, he's still arguably an All-D player), and you have "KD top 10 for sure" who's putting up near LeBron type defensive performances (460th in DRAPM), missing every rotation known to man?
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#273 » by Outside » Tue Feb 6, 2018 6:40 pm

eminence wrote:Hmm, KD's still within striking distance, but I don't think he'd make my top 10 right now. Dray has pretty clearly been the second best Warrior imo.

Durant is having a down year by his standards, but he's been the Warriors second-best player.

As an undersized guy, Draymond relies heavily on maximizing his effort and athleticism, and a 10% drop in those areas results in an even larger drop in impact. I see him banged up with minor bumps and tweaks more this year -- he's had issues with his knee, and his shoulder has been a season-long thing. The Warriors' defense as a whole hasn't been the same as in recent years, probably due to mental fatigue more than anything. Unlike Cleveland, I think they can up their focus and get to an elite level defensively as we get closer to the playoffs, but the defense that's been their calling card the past three seasons, "on a string" where they're anticipating each other's moves and working as a cohesive unit, that hasn't been there. And that starts with Draymond.

Most fans may not realize it, but Draymond has cut down drastically on the demonstrative behavior and complaining to refs. He had 10 techs in the first 37 games, and he's had one in the 16 games since. Besides the techs, his general behavior is toned down. That's a good thing to avoid being suspended for reaching the limit on techs, but I'm actually hoping to see him get a couple more before the playoffs. It's an indicator that he's in that maximum emotional output zone that he needs to be maximally effective. For now, he's more under control, more subdued, but also less effective. Not bad, just not where he'll ultimately need to be.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#274 » by Dr Spaceman » Tue Feb 6, 2018 6:46 pm

eminence wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
eminence wrote:Hmm, KD's still within striking distance, but I don't think he'd make my top 10 right now. Dray has pretty clearly been the second best Warrior imo.


Honestly only if you want to give him a legacy ranking. His defense has fallen off in a massive way this year. If KD has been coasting then we need another term for what Draymond is doing because it’s on another level.

Not that it truly matters, but to give someone a top 10 ranking right now I need to see top 10 level play, and Draymond has not been that. His net rating is 0, he’s 26th in RPM and by the eye test he’s just not the same disruptive force.

It makes sense, though, considering he’s the only Warrior who makes his living on his motor.


His defense has fallen off in a massive way (compared to himself, he's still arguably an All-D player), and you have "KD top 10 for sure" who's putting up near LeBron type defensive performances (460th in DRAPM), missing every rotation known to man?


KD’s primary value does not come from his defense, while Draymond’s does. That and I just don’t agree with Durant’s defense being that low, he’s looked fine to me if a bit disengaged. But if you’re missing every rotation known to man you don’t lead the league in blocks, he’s trying out there, which is far more than you can say for LeBron at this point.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#275 » by eminence » Tue Feb 6, 2018 7:03 pm

Agree to disagree I suppose, for me KD's defense has been nowhere close to fine.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#276 » by Dr Spaceman » Tue Feb 6, 2018 7:25 pm

It’s fair enough, I just have a hard time believing that a team with a guy playing LeBron level defense (and doesn’t it say Curry is that bad too?) for 1500 minutes so far can still be a top ten defense. I can’t think of another example of that off the top of my head.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#277 » by eminence » Tue Feb 6, 2018 7:40 pm

IT was the leading minutes getter for the '16 Celtics, 4th rated defense.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#278 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Feb 6, 2018 8:07 pm

Harden wasn't much of a defender but weren't the rockets up there in 15?
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#279 » by E-Balla » Tue Feb 6, 2018 8:30 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:Harden wasn't much of a defender but weren't the rockets up there in 15?

He played defense in 2015. Still his best year imo.

And KD has been horrible on defense. Golden State in general doesn't care about defense it seems.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#280 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Feb 6, 2018 9:46 pm

E-Balla wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:Harden wasn't much of a defender but weren't the rockets up there in 15?

He played defense in 2015. Still his best year imo.

And KD has been horrible on defense. Golden State in general doesn't care about defense it seems.


He did try on defense....but he was still a bad defender. I'll avoid how bad as that's rather difficult to quantify nor do I care to.

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