Giannis Antetokounmpo 20-21 Thread

[Greyhound]

Look at who was leading each of Lebron's teams in DFGAs per min. Birdman, Mozgov, Frye, Tristan, Nance, McGee/Dwight, Gasol. Look at the guys who lead the league every year in DFGAs: Gobert, Capela, Ayton, Lopez, Embiid, Nurkic, etc. See a trend?

DFGAs obviously aren't a perfect barometer for volume rim protection but it's not like we can't dig deeper and look at DFGAs < 6 ft from the basket. The fact that Lebron is consistently among the lowest per min shot contesters on his teams every single year is pretty damning evidence that he isn't the primary rim protector or even one of the secondary ones. That doesn't mean he isn't a very good help defender or even a good rim protector the few times per game he actually does do it (and for the record his official number of DFGAs per 36 @ < 6 ft in 2016 Finals was only 3.1 compared with 5.5 for Tristan Thompson and 6.3 for Love).

2016 Lebron-
D-RAPTOR-5.1
On/Off D-RAPTOR-9.6
Box-Score D-RAPTOR

Giannis
D-RAPTOR-3.2
On/Off D-RAPTOR-6.4
Box-Score D-RAPTOR-2.3

This is just different variations of one plus-minus metric, but if for a whole PS run it suggests 2016 Lebron>2021 Giannis, why is it absurd to suggest that Lebron for a FEW games in the Finals might have approached Giannis' impact on defense, especially when you account for him facing a more dangerous 2016 offense than the Suns?

Because giannis defended twice as many shots, spent more time protecting the paint and did more in terms of help defense?

You can't just look at matchup effiency...

Contest volume is not the only basis by which to gauge defense. Giannis is a power forward who spent a lot of time at center versus the Suns.

LeBron is a wing.

That being said, LeBron anchored the Cavs defense in 2016. He did not provide the rim protection that Giannis does, but claims that he did not do as much in terms of “help defense” are flat out erroneous.

LeBron averaged more steals, blocks and deflections against Golden State then Giannis did against Phoenix. He also matched him on the defensive glass (8.7 to Giannis’s 9.2) as a wing.
LeBron spearheaded a defense that shut down one of the top offenses in NBA history (for crying out loud).

LeBron is a roaming, free safety type defender who plugs in gaps in his teams defense (Pippin style).

Forced deflections/ turnover generation, quick rotations out to shooters (forcing them to pass up shots) and collapsing on post players (causing them to pass out of the double-teams) do not count as contest, but that is great defense.

———-

Look at LeBron’s defensive cast:

Irving (defensive turnstile)
JR Smith
Kevin Love (LOL)
Thompson

Compared to that of Giannis:

Holiday (all defensive caliber)
Middleton
Tucker (tough defender)
Lopez (good rim protector)

LeBron lifted a poorer defensive cast (to greater defensive heights) against a greater offensive opponent.

…

Giannis is the better defensive player in general, but LeBron’s 2016 Finals was clearly superior to Giannis’s Finals performance defensively (I don’t care how many more shots Giannis “contested”).

[VanWest82]

There's more work to be done to determine the entirety of their Finals performances, but this started because we were trying to see if Giannis's game 6 was the goat all around Finals game. In game 6 he defended 19 shots and had 5 blocks in addition to dropping 50. People tried to ague any of Lebron's last three were better defensively. One extra deflection per 36 and some three point luck doesn't make up for the disparity in help defense. Lebron is not Pippen. Scottie defended top options like Kawhi. Lebron defends 5th options and picks his spots in help defense which is why his shot contests are always so low but things like steals, blocks, and deflections are over-represented. Kind of like how Stockton only took open shots.

Also, if we're going to do entire Finals vs. Finals are we sure Giannis didn't have the better offensive performance? Lebron only had 26.5 game score compared with Giannis's 31.9.

[Greyhound]

There's more work to be done to determine the entirety of their Finals performance, but this started because we were trying to see if Giannis's game 6 was the goat all around Finals game. In game 6 he defended 19 shots and had 5 blocks in addition to dropping 50. People tried to ague any of Lebron's last three were better defensively. One extra deflection per 36 and some three point luck doesn't make up for the disparity in help defense.

Also, if we're going to do entire Finals vs. Finals are we sure Giannis didn't have the better offensive performance? Lebron only had 26.5 game score compared with Giannis's 31.9.

Enlighten me as to the “disparity in help defense” from the 2016 Finals (LeBron played) and the 2021 Finals (Giannis played).

As to your other point on offense.

I would like to start off by noting that the way the game is played (and officiated) today is night and day compared to the way it was in 2016.

That having been said, Giannis very well could have been better as an offensive weapon. It would make for an interesting debate weighing Giannis’ efficiency vs. LeBron’s playmaking.

In terms of offensive help, Giannis did not have an offensive weapon the caliber of Kyrie Irving alongside him, while LeBron played in a slower paced series (where scoring opportunities were fewer).

[Clyde Frazier]

Watch on YouTube

If you're feeling some bball withdrawal, this is a fun ~19 minutes. Looking back at the seeds giannis planted his rookie year foreshadowing what he'd become. I remember how exciting it was to watch such a unique player his first few years.

[AussieBuck]

Watch on YouTube

If you're feeling some bball withdrawal, this is a fun ~19 minutes. Looking back at the seeds giannis planted his rookie year foreshadowing what he'd become. I remember how exciting it was to watch such a unique player his first few years.

Funny enough the actual Cylde was one of the first commentators to catch on too.

[falcolombardi]

i remember rookie giannis going against okc and dursnt and we all joked that milwaukee got its own greek durant

i never thought he would become literally a center down the road, expected him to develop his jumpshot and be a point forward or wing scorer

[AussieBuck]

i remember rookie giannis going against okc and dursnt and we all joked that milwaukee got its own greek durant

i never thought he would become literally a center down the road, expected him to develop his jumpshot and be a point forward or wing scorer

I'm mad all over again watching this after what Kidd's staff did to Giannis shot. They thought it was too low and wouldn't work off the dribble and totally **** it.

[falcolombardi]

i remember rookie giannis going against okc and dursnt and we all joked that milwaukee got its own greek durant

i never thought he would become literally a center down the road, expected him to develop his jumpshot and be a point forward or wing scorer

I'm mad all over again watching this after what Kidd's staff did to Giannis shot. They thought it was too low and wouldn't work off the dribble and totally **** it.

that sucks to read, giannis with a jumper would be scary

by the way what do you think milwaukee does from now on roster wise? i imagine they are gonna run it back with the same squad?

maybe try to find a ring chasing point guard to play off the bench? (rubio?, patty mills?, george hill?)

[AussieBuck]

i remember rookie giannis going against okc and dursnt and we all joked that milwaukee got its own greek durant

i never thought he would become literally a center down the road, expected him to develop his jumpshot and be a point forward or wing scorer

I'm mad all over again watching this after what Kidd's staff did to Giannis shot. They thought it was too low and wouldn't work off the dribble and totally **** it.

that sucks to read, giannis with a jumper would be scary

by the way what do you think milwaukee does from now on roster wise? i imagine they are gonna run it back with the same squad?

maybe try to find a ring chasing point guard to play off the bench? (rubio?, patty mills?, george hill?)

Will need at least one big too, Portis will get paid and if Tucker still wants MLE type money I imagine he'll go too. Would love Hill back and want a PF who can play a little C. Need options for when Lopez is played off court.

[Clyde Frazier]

i remember rookie giannis going against okc and dursnt and we all joked that milwaukee got its own greek durant

i never thought he would become literally a center down the road, expected him to develop his jumpshot and be a point forward or wing scorer

I'm mad all over again watching this after what Kidd's staff did to Giannis shot. They thought it was too low and wouldn't work off the dribble and totally **** it.

I noticed that It wasn't pretty but didn't look broken either.

[feyki]

By my count, Giannis was the 7th player to win FMVP as the only All Star on their team:

- Barry (75)
- Jordan (91, 98)
- Hakeem (94, 95)
- Duncan (03)
- Dirk (11)
- LeBron (16)
- Giannis (21)

In the actuality, 75 Barry, 94 Hakeem, 03 TD and 11 Dirk.

[ShotCreator]

There's more work to be done to determine the entirety of their Finals performance, but this started because we were trying to see if Giannis's game 6 was the goat all around Finals game. In game 6 he defended 19 shots and had 5 blocks in addition to dropping 50. People tried to ague any of Lebron's last three were better defensively. One extra deflection per 36 and some three point luck doesn't make up for the disparity in help defense.

Also, if we're going to do entire Finals vs. Finals are we sure Giannis didn't have the better offensive performance? Lebron only had 26.5 game score compared with Giannis's 31.9.

That having been said, Giannis very well could have been better as an offensive weapon. It would make for an interesting debate weighing Giannis’ efficiency vs. LeBron’s playmaking.

This made me say, ‘WHAT?’ out loud. Giannis is a version of LeBron with offensive disabilities.

They’re not close offensively.

[TroubleS0me]

By my count, Giannis was the 7th player to win FMVP as the only All Star on their team:

- Barry (75)
- Jordan (91, 98)
- Hakeem (94, 95)
- Duncan (03)
- Dirk (11)
- LeBron (16)
- Giannis (21)

In the actuality, 75 Barry, 94 Hakeem, 03 TD and 11 Dirk.

what about teammates who made an all-NBA team 1st 2nd 3rd ?

making all-NBA team > all star team

[VanWest82]

There's more work to be done to determine the entirety of their Finals performance, but this started because we were trying to see if Giannis's game 6 was the goat all around Finals game. In game 6 he defended 19 shots and had 5 blocks in addition to dropping 50. People tried to ague any of Lebron's last three were better defensively. One extra deflection per 36 and some three point luck doesn't make up for the disparity in help defense.

Also, if we're going to do entire Finals vs. Finals are we sure Giannis didn't have the better offensive performance? Lebron only had 26.5 game score compared with Giannis's 31.9.

That having been said, Giannis very well could have been better as an offensive weapon. It would make for an interesting debate weighing Giannis’ efficiency vs. LeBron’s playmaking.

This made me say, ‘WHAT?’ out loud. Giannis is a version of LeBron with offensive disabilities.

They’re not close offensively.

Giannis scored 35 ppg in the Finals on 66% TS. He scored in a variety of ways: on ball, off ball, iso, post up, playing above the rim. It was very impressive. You could easily make the case that he had a better Finals offensively than Lebron did in 2016.

Edit: I already illustrated Giannis had the higher Finals game score. He also had a better PIE measure per nba.com (23 > 22.5).

[falcolombardi]

worth to note that 2016 is a much less scoring heavy era

it may surprise a lot of people but 2016 was a fairly low scoring year at a bit over 106 offensive rating average (for comparision the 80's and early 90's of magic or jordan era were around 108 and the 2000's were roughly around 106 too)

offensive rating has gone up by over 5 points since then, the suns defense this year had a 111.3 defense rating where warriors are 103.8 (7.5 points difference)
in relative numbers suns were a -1.0 defense and warriors a -2.6 defense

while for direct comparision while lebron scored less and less efficiently (although the Gap is smaller adjusting to year) he playmaked more with 44% assists rate vs giannis 22%

2016 had a 0.30 lower true shooting across the board , warriors were a 7.5 points better defense in defensive rating in raw numbers amd 1.8 points better in relative defensive rating to each seasom compared to suns

overall giannis still seems to have a edge in scoring but smaller than the raw numbers say and is lower on playmaking using raw stats

[VanWest82]

Anchoring 2016 Finals arguments based on Warriors regular season prowess is hollow and unconvincing due to Steph and Bogut's injuries and Draymond's suspension. They were not the same team and we have to stop pretending like they were the same team that destroyed the league en route to 73 wins.

Lebron +2.2 rTS, 36.8 points per 100 vs. Warriors
Giannis +8.6 rTS, 43.5 points per 100 vs. Suns

Yes it's easier to score now and yes even with the injuries and suspension 2016 Warriors were probably better defensively than 2021 Suns. Giannis still has a big lead in scoring even after adjusting. And while Lebron arguably had a bit of an advantage in play making he also averaged almost twice as many turnovers (Giannis 2.9 per 100 vs. Lebron 5.5 per 100) so it's not exactly straight forward to just compare AST% and call it a day. Overall, Giannis was the more efficient player. Full stop. It's the same argument you guys were trying to make in Lebron's favor defensively only Giannis also wins on volume.

[kayess]

Anchoring 2016 Finals arguments based on Warriors regular season prowess is hollow and unconvincing due to Steph and Bogut's injuries and Draymond's suspension. They were not the same team and we have to stop pretending like they were the same team that destroyed the league en route to 73 wins.

Lebron +2.2 rTS, 36.8 points per 100 vs. Warriors
Giannis +8.6 rTS, 43.5 points per 100 vs. Suns

Yes it's easier to score now and yes even with the injuries and suspension 2016 Warriors were probably better defensively than 2021 Suns. Giannis still has a big lead in scoring even after adjusting. And while Lebron arguably had a bit of an advantage in play making he also averaged almost twice as many turnovers (Giannis 2.9 per 100 vs. Lebron 5.5 per 100) so it's not exactly straight forward to just compare AST% and call it a day. Overall, Giannis was the more efficient player. Full stop. It's the same argument you guys were trying to make in Lebron's favor defensively only Giannis also wins on volume.

They were literally making the argument that help defense, LeBron's best defensive quality, wasn't even measured in the stats... and your retort is to snarkily compare box-score numbers that only measure scoring efficiency, assists and turnovers, which omits hockey assists and other ways playmaking/creation is not captured in the box score?

Regardless of what the answer to this debate is that strikes me as extremely disingenuous.

[ShotCreator]

Giannis’ scoring does not happen in a vacuum.
His scoring has the most impurities of any volume creator in the era.

In other words, Giannis offensive game has costs(spacing, ballhandling, play design), that absolutely put a cap on his game impact.

Giannis is the caricature of LeBron’s strengths and weaknesses. And Giannis and Prime LeBron are damn close on raw finishing and rim pressure.

Not even somewhat close on floor shrinking, sub-optimal passing, non-shooting, non-diverse ballhandling and play running ability. Also general BBIQ to mitigate weaknesses that exist.

[BobbyPortisFan]

There's more work to be done to determine the entirety of their Finals performance, but this started because we were trying to see if Giannis's game 6 was the goat all around Finals game. In game 6 he defended 19 shots and had 5 blocks in addition to dropping 50. People tried to ague any of Lebron's last three were better defensively. One extra deflection per 36 and some three point luck doesn't make up for the disparity in help defense.

Also, if we're going to do entire Finals vs. Finals are we sure Giannis didn't have the better offensive performance? Lebron only had 26.5 game score compared with Giannis's 31.9.

That having been said, Giannis very well could have been better as an offensive weapon. It would make for an interesting debate weighing Giannis’ efficiency vs. LeBron’s playmaking.

This made me say, ‘WHAT?’ out loud. Giannis is a version of LeBron with offensive disabilities.

They’re not close offensively.

Lebron is giannis with defensieve sisabilities

[BobbyPortisFan]

There's more work to be done to determine the entirety of their Finals performance, but this started because we were trying to see if Giannis's game 6 was the goat all around Finals game. In game 6 he defended 19 shots and had 5 blocks in addition to dropping 50. People tried to ague any of Lebron's last three were better defensively. One extra deflection per 36 and some three point luck doesn't make up for the disparity in help defense.

Also, if we're going to do entire Finals vs. Finals are we sure Giannis didn't have the better offensive performance? Lebron only had 26.5 game score compared with Giannis's 31.9.

That having been said, Giannis very well could have been better as an offensive weapon. It would make for an interesting debate weighing Giannis’ efficiency vs. LeBron’s playmaking.

This made me say, ‘WHAT?’ out loud. Giannis is a version of LeBron with offensive disabilities.

They’re not close offensively.

Lebron is giannis with defensieve sisabilities