2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[mikejames23]

A lot of Zach LaVine's drives and range is elite IMO. He's bound to have another all-star year if he plays this way. Don't know about Bulls... not a winning team recipe. Won't be surprised if they fall off soon.

[Peregrine01]

So......... if this is who Harden is with the rule and reffing changes how are we evaluating his career? Feels like we're in a new era and Hardens game always had foulbaiting as the pillar of his offense. It made him a one man offense and not only the foul calls but also with how much space defenders gave him to avoid his gimmick foul baiting. It gave him way more space for the step backs and easier separation to get to the rim. If this is who Harden is now his "prime" looks like a Mikan sort of prime not as dominant but could make a strong case its the only era ever hed dominate the way he did since the past era was an unprecedented time in bias for offensive players

And its not a conditioning issue. Hes actually trying on defense and him and the coaches and org have said hes in shape. He said "its scary hours with a healthy Harden now" a week before preseason. He was fat and out of shape when he got to Brooklyn last year but was still dominating too

If Harden never gets better again, I think Harden's status as a legend is going to be massively hurt, and deservedly so I think.

I still find it hard to believe that he won't figure things out again with some time, but I have to say I'm surprised he's still focused so much on flopping when he knows refs are specifically looking to crack down on HIS flopping. It feels like he's being petulant out there as if that makes the refs look bad, but that's the opposite of how it looks.

After so many years it's going to take time to kick certain habits...

It certainly says something about how bad the officiating was when certain players built their game around foul-baiting to such an extent that it has become instinctual. Foul-baiting comes to Harden as naturally as dribbling.

[LukaTheGOAT]

If this board generally believes in evaluating NBA players relative to the context of the era they played in, shouldn't Harden's status from 13-20 mainly be untouched, because he simply was performing with regards to what the league allowed? Like Harden based his game around being as effective as he could given the rules of the time. And should he continue to struggle, then maybe we can say he doesn't have much era portability. But nonetheless, people always say evaluate players in the time they played in.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Luka is only 16/63 on 3 pointers so far this season. It's still early, but too early to be concerned?

And his free throw attempts are way down too

I haven't watched much Dallas this year - what do people think is up?

Luka looks out of shape. It's not just that he's not shooting a good percentage, roughly half those misses are airballs. The FT's being down I think is just the league emphasis. He's still attacking the paint as much as any player in the league and he's still getting plenty of contact, but the refs are saying play on(and for the vast majority of those I would say correctly so).

Doesn't help that until KP went down, Kidd played two bigs pretty much exclusively. And Kidd is playing a very deep rotation, going 12 or more deep every night. So harder to build the kind of continuity and consistency for better offense.

But mainly I have the issue being Luka's not in great shape and is forcing a lot of stuff anyway. The most recent game was really unusual in that down the stretch the ball went to Brunson on every possession but one. And because Brunson delivered I hope that means he gets mixed in more. And Brunson was very smart after the game to thank Luka for trusting him and to make it clear that everything still begins and ends with Luka.

Have you noticed this?

Read on Twitter

[Doctor MJ]

If this board generally believes in evaluating NBA players relative to the context of the era they played in, shouldn't Harden's status from 13-20 mainly be untouched, because he simply was performing with regards to what the league allowed? Like Harden based his game around being as effective as he could given the rules of the time. And should he continue to struggle, then maybe we can say he doesn't have much era portability. But nonetheless, people always say evaluate players in the time they played in.

Excellent question for consideration.

When I spoke before I was speaking as a prediction for how the broader basketball world will see his legacy if in the end his narrative is “He was great while NBA refereeing was ass backwards, then they cleaned that up and he disappeared from relevance immediately”. That’s not the same thing as RealGM-types explicitly retroactively downgrading his prior accomplishments.

Of course I’m also not saying he’ll be immune from such downgrading here either. I think the reality is that most evaluate GOAT list holistically in the end, myself included, and a player can rise or fall pretty dramatically after his prime based on the way his arc finishes.

I’ll say that I’ve had Harden lower than most for a while now - after at first being far higher than most - so I don’t think my personal lists will be the interesting ones to observe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Doctor MJ]

If Harden never gets better again, I think Harden's status as a legend is going to be massively hurt, and deservedly so I think.

I still find it hard to believe that he won't figure things out again with some time, but I have to say I'm surprised he's still focused so much on flopping when he knows refs are specifically looking to crack down on HIS flopping. It feels like he's being petulant out there as if that makes the refs look bad, but that's the opposite of how it looks.

After so many years it's going to take time to kick certain habits...

It certainly says something about how bad the officiating was when certain players built their game around foul-baiting to such an extent that it has become instinctual. Foul-baiting comes to Harden as naturally as dribbling.

“Bad” isn’t an inaccurate adjective, but I’d prefer something like “manipulated by player norms”.

What I definitely notice in last year’s playoffs with Chris Paul was that the refs were objectively doing a worse job than I’d expect from a novice, because they were clearly trained by Harden/Paul/Young and others to blow the whistle every time these offensive stars performed a non-basketball movement.

It was like a “An offensive player would never throw his head back and fall to the ground when he’s trying to score, so you must blow the whistle unless you are 100% sure there was no foul”.

And this is why I’ve been saying for a while now that the refs need to be empowered to NOT blow the whistle unless they explicitly saw the defensive player do something proactive that caused the offensive player to play like this.

And I think they’ve done it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Clyde Frazier]

If this board generally believes in evaluating NBA players relative to the context of the era they played in, shouldn't Harden's status from 13-20 mainly be untouched, because he simply was performing with regards to what the league allowed? Like Harden based his game around being as effective as he could given the rules of the time. And should he continue to struggle, then maybe we can say he doesn't have much era portability. But nonetheless, people always say evaluate players in the time they played in.

I more or less agree with this, and i'm not a harden fan at all. I just never *blamed* him for taking advantage of the way the game was called, as awful as it was to watch. I think as time went on, he got a sense of entitlement for those calls though which led people to dislike him even more. The NBA took too long to make this change, but no there shouldn't be any retroactive evaluation of his game. Context matters. Also, the guy is an extremely talented player. Over time we'll likely see him find ways to adjust.

Also, for those who watch him play more than me, is he in shape right now? Or is that part of it too?

[Texas Chuck]

The vast majority of people judge players by things outside of their individual control. By narratives they themselves have created. Plus people in general do not like Harden. I expect this to impact him negatively perception wise by a considerable amount. It shouldn't. But it absolutely will.

[Doctor MJ]

If this board generally believes in evaluating NBA players relative to the context of the era they played in, shouldn't Harden's status from 13-20 mainly be untouched, because he simply was performing with regards to what the league allowed? Like Harden based his game around being as effective as he could given the rules of the time. And should he continue to struggle, then maybe we can say he doesn't have much era portability. But nonetheless, people always say evaluate players in the time they played in.

I more or less agree with this, and i'm not a harden fan at all. I just never *blamed* him for taking advantage of the way the game was called, as awful as it was to watch. I think as time went on, he got a sense of entitlement for those calls though which led people to dislike him even more. The NBA took too long to make this change, but no there shouldn't be any retroactive evaluation of his game. Context matters. Also, the guy is an extremely talented player. Over time we'll likely see him find ways to adjust.

Also, for those who watch him play more than me, is he in shape right now? Or is that part of it too?

I don't get to watch anywhere near as much as I'd like, but yeah, Harden physically is far below he was last year. Only question of it is how much of it is due to injury or not taking the off-season seriously, and how much of it is the natural progression of his body as he ages. I don't think Harden can actually know either even if he believes it's just about things he'll be able to fix with over the course of the season.

[falcolombardi]

between the fragile defense, harden seemingly regressing amd no kyrie....are we stopping to look at nets as a favorite? or do you guys still have them as temptatively the strongest team coming the playoffs?

also, as is always proven, championship windows are a lot more fragile than we usually think, even the durant/curry/dray warriors were a 0-27 Night away of going 1 of 3 as the most stacked team all time

[Texas Chuck]

between the fragile defense, harden seemingly regressing amd no kyrie....are we stopping to look at nets as a favorite? or do you guys still have them as temptatively the strongest team coming the playoffs?

also, as is always proven, championship windows are a lot more fragile than we usually think, even the durant/curry/dray warriors were a 0-27 Night away of going 1 of 3 as the most stacked team all time

I had the Bucks as a returning favorite going into the season. We haven't really seen them, but I fully expect as they get their guys back they will be a tough out again.

But Miami has risen up and demanded our respect. And they've got mine.
Philly once again has the best record in the East and a Simmons card still to play.

Out West, the Warriors are just rolling over teams. I'm still skeptical but if this defense is legit and they were really good last year too and they are going to make 3's like this, we have to take them pretty seriously too.

I'd have it:

1. Bucks
2. Heat
3. Warriors
4. Philly

Nets down there with Utah and Phoenix and maybe eventually Denver or the Lakers.

[Fadeaway_J]

between the fragile defense, harden seemingly regressing amd no kyrie....are we stopping to look at nets as a favorite? or do you guys still have them as temptatively the strongest team coming the playoffs?

also, as is always proven, championship windows are a lot more fragile than we usually think, even the durant/curry/dray warriors were a 0-27 Night away of going 1 of 3 as the most stacked team all time

I had the Bucks as a returning favorite going into the season. We haven't really seen them, but I fully expect as they get their guys back they will be a tough out again.

But Miami has risen up and demanded our respect. And they've got mine.
Philly once again has the best record in the East and a Simmons card still to play.

Out West, the Warriors are just rolling over teams. I'm still skeptical but if this defense is legit and they were really good last year too and they are going to make 3's like this, we have to take them pretty seriously too.

I'd have it:

1. Bucks
2. Heat
3. Warriors
4. Philly

Nets down there with Utah and Phoenix and maybe eventually Denver or the Lakers.

Maybe unpopular but I'd have Utah near the top also. I think the extent to which Gobert was "played off the floor" was wildly exaggerated (again), but in any case I don't really see a contender who can replicate the lineups that Clippers team was able to throw out.

[Doctor MJ]

between the fragile defense, harden seemingly regressing amd no kyrie....are we stopping to look at nets as a favorite? or do you guys still have them as temptatively the strongest team coming the playoffs?

also, as is always proven, championship windows are a lot more fragile than we usually think, even the durant/curry/dray warriors were a 0-27 Night away of going 1 of 3 as the most stacked team all time

I don't see the Nets as the favorites at this point no.

I think the most likely East champ is the Bucks. I'm not sure who I'd pick next between the Nets, 76ers & Heat.

In the West I think the Jazz are most likely. They are always going to be vulnerable to a legit 5-out offense, but I think we should be careful not to overstate how easy it is to actually find one of those teams. After them you've got a trio of teams that seem like they could emerge as the best if they get to full health - Warriors, Nuggets, Clippers.

I suppose that's making me think Jazz are slightly more likely than the Bucks. so they are my favorite now. But yeah, I certainly take the field over them and I don't think they have the highest ceiling.

[Texas Chuck]

I like the Jazz too. Loved them last year. But I just don't believe Mitchell is that guy offensively and so I just don't trust them as much in the playoffs. Everyone talks about Gobert, but for me its their go-to offensive guy just isn't That Guy. They would have to be a Spurs/Pistons champ and that's just much harder than being a star-based team.

And yes I know he's put up huge numbers the last couple of playoffs lol.

[Doctor MJ]

I like the Jazz too. Loved them last year. But I just don't believe Mitchell is that guy offensively and so I just don't trust them as much in the playoffs. Everyone talks about Gobert, but for me its their go-to offensive guy just isn't That Guy. They would have to be a Spurs/Pistons champ and that's just much harder than being a star-based team.

And yes I know he's put up huge numbers the last couple of playoffs lol.

Thing is, haven't the Jazz lost with defense in both of the last two years? While I understand not rating Mitchell as the best alpha scorer, I'm more concerned with the exploits opponents have found to attack the Jazz defense.

[Outside]

Love what the Warriors have done so far, but they can't be the favorite in the West. They've had a soft schedule, and though they have room for improvement, Utah is clearly the favorite. Utah has experience, depth, and roster continuity with their core.

I expect someone else to rise in the West, but that's not clear yet. Barring injury to Steph or Draymond, the Warriors can be top three in the conference.

[mikejames23]

It's still pretty early and I can't tell if any of the lesser teams are a threat to make the finals. I am between Suns, Jazz, Bucks right now, and even the Jazz don't feel like a proper championship team to me. Might've a repeat of last season. The Clippers and Nugs have knocked out with major injuries. Sixers are missing Simmons and Nets missing Kyrie. The injury situation is unfortunate really. It would be pretty interesting to see if the Sixers and Nets can carry themselves to strong records without their key guys.

[Texas Chuck]

I like the Jazz too. Loved them last year. But I just don't believe Mitchell is that guy offensively and so I just don't trust them as much in the playoffs. Everyone talks about Gobert, but for me its their go-to offensive guy just isn't That Guy. They would have to be a Spurs/Pistons champ and that's just much harder than being a star-based team.

And yes I know he's put up huge numbers the last couple of playoffs lol.

Thing is, haven't the Jazz lost with defense in both of the last two years? While I understand not rating Mitchell as the best alpha scorer, I'm more concerned with the exploits opponents have found to attack the Jazz defense.

Doc,

Chalk this one up to irony. I'm normally the what happens matters most guy but with Utah I go by theory for some reason. I'm acknowledging my position isn't particularly supportable by the evidence....

[Fadeaway_J]

I like the Jazz too. Loved them last year. But I just don't believe Mitchell is that guy offensively and so I just don't trust them as much in the playoffs. Everyone talks about Gobert, but for me its their go-to offensive guy just isn't That Guy. They would have to be a Spurs/Pistons champ and that's just much harder than being a star-based team.

And yes I know he's put up huge numbers the last couple of playoffs lol.

I'm not sure those huge numbers really reflect his true level either, but as an offensive go-to guy he's well above anyone either of those teams had IMO.

With that said, it's largely that I'm not high on the top of the West in general this season. As much as I hope to be proven wrong, I feel like the Lakers have sabotaged their chances with the Russ trade; Clippers are out of it unless Kawhi comes back way earlier (and better) than expected; ditto Denver and Murray; Warriors depend on how good Klay looks when he returns; and Phoenix maxes out at a similar level to Utah assuming CP3 continues to stave off Father Time. Basically, I'm defaulting to them because they've got the fewest question marks of anyone right now.

[Clyde Frazier]

Watch on YouTube

Pretty impressive showing by Cole Anthony in this win over the jazz. He seems in control for the most part even tho quickness is his strength. Also apparently measured 6'1" barefoot which is hard to believe, but maybe he just has a diminutive looking frame in general.

33 PTS on 20 shots, 3 REB, 2 AST, 3 STL, 2 BLK