RealGM Top 100 All-Time List

[golfreak]

Sorry but if we are judging by career so far, LeBron shouldn't be 16 spots ahead of Wade.
Wade has a championship and final MVP so he needs to be even with LeBron or at most 5 spots behind.

[DC2]

pierce does not deserve to be on this list.

[TheSheriff]

pierce does not deserve to be on this list.

I think you need to take a closer look at his career and compare it to other players.

[TheSheriff]

Does anyone have a copy of the old top 100 lists?

[Baller 24]

Yup.

1. Wilt Chamberlain (8 of 17 votes)
2. Michael Jordan (12 of 18 votes)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (15 of 19 votes)
4. Magic Johnson (10 of 19 votes)
5. Larry Bird (9 of 22 votes)
6. Bill Russell (15 of 26 votes)
7. Jerry West (11 of 19 votes)
8. Oscar Robertson (14 of 24 votes)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (13 of 24 votes)
10. Shaquille O\'Neal (16 of 26 votes)
11. Julius Erving (17 of 24 votes)
12. Tim Duncan (15 of 25 votes)
13. Moses Malone (16 of 23 votes)
14. Karl Malone (12 of 21 votes)
15. Bob Pettit (11-10 runoff over Baylor)
16. David Robinson (11 of 22 votes)
17. Elgin Baylor (8 of 20 votes)
18. John Havlicek (8 of 19 votes)
19. Rick Barry (12 of 17 votes)
20. Charles Barkley (14 of 22 votes)
21. Walt Frazier (12 of 26 votes)
22. Kobe Bryant (8 of 22 votes)
23. John Stockton (6 of 20 votes)
24. Scottie Pippen (10 of 19 votes)
25. Kevin Garnett (7 of 15 votes)
26. Isiah Thomas (10 of 14 votes)
27. Artis Gilmore (7 of 18 votes)
28. George Mikan (9 of 16 votes)
29. Clyde Drexler (9 of 19 votes)
30. Patrick Ewing (9 of 16 votes)
31. Gary Payton (8 of 14 votes)
32. George Gervin (9 of 14 votes)
33. Willis Reed (6 of 19 votes)
34. Bob Cousy (7 of 17 votes)
35. Jason Kidd (8 of 15 votes)
36. Sidney Moncrief (5 of 14 votes)
37. Elvin Hayes (10 of 17 votes)
38. Bill Walton (7 of 18 votes)
39. Allen Iverson (10 of 18 votes)
40. Kevin McHale (7 of 17 votes)
41. Bob McAdoo (7 of 16 votes)
42. Dave Cowens (10 of 17 votes)
43. Arydas Sabonis (10 of 18 votes)
44. Wes Unseld (9 of 19 votes)
45. Steve Nash (12 of 19 votes)
46. Nate Thurmond (12 of 18 votes)
47. Billy Cunningham (8 of 21 votes)
48. Dominique Wilkins (6 of 13 votes)
49. Dirk Nowitzki (7 of 18 votes)
50. Dwyane Wade (7 of 16 votes)
51. Reggie Miller (6 of 17 votes)
52. Tracy McGrady (8 of 17 votes)
53. Bob Lanier (7 of 16 votes)
54. Jerry Lucas (9 of 13 votes)
55. Alex English (6 of 14 votes)
56. Robert Parish (7 of 14 votes)
57. Joe Dumars (9 of 19 votes)
58. Dennis Johnson (8-7 runoff over Hill)
59. Grant Hill (11 of 18 votes)
60. Chris Webber (6 of 18 votes)
61. Tiny Archibald (6 of 15 votes)
62. Pete Maravich (7 of 19 votes)
63. Alonzo Mourning (6 of 17 votes)
64. Adrian Dantley (10 of 15 votes)
65. Bernard King (8 of 18 votes)
66. Dikembe Mutombo (8 of 18 votes)
67. James Worthy (9 of 15 votes)
68. George McGinnis (6 of 16 votes)
69. Paul Arizin (8 of 13 votes)
70. Hal Greer (6 of 16 votes)
71. Connie Hawkins (8 of 14 votes)
72. LeBron James (6 of 14 votes)
73. Sam Jones (8 of 12 votes)
74. Dave DeBusschere (8 of 13 votes)
75. David Thompson (6 of 14 votes)
76. Kevin Johnson (5 of 10 votes)
77. Dave Bing (4 of 10 votes)
78. Spencer Haywood (6 of 14 votes)
79. Mel Daniels (4 of 9 votes)
80. Chris Mullin (6 of 10 votes)
81. Dennis Rodman (4 of 10 votes)
82. Bobby Jones (7 of 13 votes)
83. Dan Issel (6 of 12 votes)
84. Lenny Wilkens (4 of 11 votes)
85. Drazen Petrovic (6 of 12 votes)
86. Dolph Schayes (6 of 8 votes)
87. Walt Bellamy (5 of 8 votes)
88. Earl Monroe (10 of 13 votes)
89. Mitch Richmond (6 of 10 votes)
90. Anfernee Hardaway (6 of 11 votes)
91. Shawn Kemp (7 of 13 votes)
92. Fat Lever (4 of 11 votes)
93. Bill Sharman (8 of 11 votes)
94. Paul Pierce (4 of 11 votes)
95. Ray Allen (7-6-4 runoff over Sikma and Carter)
96. Vince Carter (4 of 12 votes)
97. Ben Wallace (7 of 12 votes)
98. Marques Johnson (5 of 14 votes)
99. Jack Sikma (4 of 10 votes)
100. Mo Cheeks (5 of 12 votes)

[FlashTheKilla]

Do Wade & LeBron move up some on the next list after another incredible season by both?

(Not mentioning Kobe because I think he's pretty much cemented where he is unless he wins another ring/MVP).

[Baller 24]

Do Wade & LeBron move up some on the next list after another incredible season by both?

(Not mentioning Kobe because I think he's pretty much cemented where he is unless he wins another ring/MVP).

Well until we make another list lol....

[FlashTheKilla]

Do Wade & LeBron move up some on the next list after another incredible season by both?

(Not mentioning Kobe because I think he's pretty much cemented where he is unless he wins another ring/MVP).

Well until we make another list lol....

Yeah haha, I guess you guys have enough on your hands already finishing up this list.

[pistons_own]

wth ray allen and paul pierce , there good but not top 100

put isiah thomas in there

[Baller 24]

wth ray allen and paul pierce , there good but not top 100

put isiah thomas in there

Thomas is in the top 25.....

[penbeast0]

As another cross check on how we are doing, I have copied Basketball-Reference.com's Hall of Fame probability list here. Note that this isn't trying to measure how great a player was, merely his chance of making the Hall of Fame based on characteristics of players already admitted. I have bolded the players we have not yet selected who played after 1967's expansion (since there are a lot of 1950s players we haven't looked at).

1. Michael Jordan 1.0000
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1.0000
3. Bill Russell* 1.0000
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 1.0000
5. Larry Bird* 1.0000
6. Magic Johnson* 1.0000
7. Shaquille O'Neal 1.0000
8. Tim Duncan 1.0000
9. Karl Malone 1.0000
10. Bob Pettit* 1.0000
11. Oscar Robertson* 1.0000
12. Jerry West* 1.0000
13. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
14. Elgin Baylor* 1.0000
15. Hakeem Olajuwon* 1.0000
16. David Robinson 1.0000
17. Kevin Garnett 1.0000
18. Bob Cousy* 1.0000
19. Moses Malone* 1.0000
20. John Havlicek* 1.0000
21. Charles Barkley* 1.0000
22. Allen Iverson 1.0000
23. George Mikan* 1.0000
24. Julius Erving* 0.9999
25. Sam Jones* 0.9997
26. Dave Cowens* 0.9995
27. Tom Heinsohn* 0.9995
28. Isiah Thomas* 0.9995
29. Scottie Pippen 0.9994
30. LeBron James 0.9993
31. Bob McAdoo* 0.9991
32. Dolph Schayes* 0.9990
33. Elvin Hayes* 0.9990
34. Patrick Ewing* 0.9986
35. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9984
36. Paul Arizin* 0.9982
37. Willis Reed* 0.9982
38. Vern Mikkelsen* 0.9974
39. Clyde Drexler* 0.9973
40. Steve Nash 0.9972
41. Slater Martin* 0.9970
42. Neil Johnston* 0.9968
43. George Gervin* 0.9966
44. Dominique Wilkins* 0.9962
45. Rick Barry* 0.9959
46. George Yardley* 0.9948
47. Jim Pollard* 0.9921
48. Ed Macauley* 0.9859
49. Jason Kidd 0.9843
50. Gary Payton 0.9808
51. Bill Sharman* 0.9797
52. Tracy McGrady 0.9782
53. Walt Frazier* 0.9700
54. Jerry Lucas* 0.9484
55. Hal Greer* 0.9479
56. Paul Pierce 0.9394
57. Tiny Archibald* 0.9385
58. Robert Parish* 0.9359
59. Billy Cunningham* 0.9357
60. Harry Gallatin* 0.9349
61. Bob Lanier* 0.9275
62. Dave DeBusschere* 0.9235
63. Chris Webber 0.9128
64. Ray Allen 0.9097
65. Lenny Wilkens* 0.9056
66. Kevin McHale* 0.9040
67. Dave Bing* 0.9004
68. Vince Carter 0.8979
69. Alonzo Mourning 0.8850
70. Adrian Dantley* 0.8651
71. Bailey Howell* 0.8520
72. Bob Davies* 0.8401
73. Pete Maravich* 0.8150
74. John Stockton 0.8111
75. Alex English* 0.8006
76. Grant Hill 0.7983
77. Bobby Wanzer* 0.7956
78. Bernard King 0.7910
79. Arnie Risen* 0.7890
80. Jo Jo White 0.7844
81. Tim Hardaway 0.7652
82. Nate Thurmond* 0.7294
83. James Worthy* 0.7228
84. Wes Unseld* 0.7193
85. Frank Ramsey* 0.6636
86. Mitch Richmond 0.6189
87. Andy Phillip* 0.5910
88. Bob Dandridge 0.5878
89. Mel Hutchins 0.5792
90. Dick McGuire* 0.5726
91. Tony Parker 0.5686
92. Willie Naulls 0.5549
93. Gilbert Arenas 0.5431
94. Chet Walker 0.5380
95. Walt Bellamy* 0.5153
96. Dennis Johnson 0.4983
97. Gus Johnson 0.4886
98. Jamaal Wilkes 0.4837
99. Cliff Hagan* 0.4774
100. Gail Goodrich* 0.4765

Tommy Heinsohn and Vern Mikkelson are the top 50-60s players
Bailey Howell and Chet Walker are the top 60-70s guys
Jojo White and Bob Dandridge the top 70-80s players
Tim Hardaway and Mitch Richmond the top 80s-90s guys
and the top active players would be Tony Parker and Gil Arenas

For what it is worth . . .

[sp6r=underrated]

Hakeem's in his retirement has made an amazing assent up the all time greatest list.

During his playing days he was considered to be comparable to David Robinson before their series and slightly better after. His peak was considered to be very high but not like he was playing borderline GOAT caliber ball. Now, its argued by some that his peak was as good as many GOAT candidates and that the Rockets were better off taking Hakeem rather than Jordan.

At the rate he is going he'll be a legitimate GOAT candidate in 15 years.

[penbeast0]

he is still considered to comparable but slightly better to DAvid Robinson, it's just that DRob is considered to be the 7th best center of all time and one of the top 12 players . . . Hakeem is the 5th best center and one of the top 6-8 players . . . but yeah, some people overrate him a bit.

[TheSheriff]

Hakeem's in his retirement has made an amazing assent up the all time greatest list.

During his playing days he was considered to be comparable to David Robinson before their series and slightly better after. His peak was considered to be very high but not like he was playing borderline GOAT caliber ball. Now, its argued by some that his peak was as good as many GOAT candidates and that the Rockets were better off taking Hakeem rather than Jordan.

At the rate he is going he'll be a legitimate GOAT candidate in 15 years.

That happens. Look at Wilt and Russell. I wonder how KG and Duncan will be compared 15 years from now.

[sp6r=underrated]

Hakeem's in his retirement has made an amazing assent up the all time greatest list.

During his playing days he was considered to be comparable to David Robinson before their series and slightly better after. His peak was considered to be very high but not like he was playing borderline GOAT caliber ball. Now, its argued by some that his peak was as good as many GOAT candidates and that the Rockets were better off taking Hakeem rather than Jordan.

At the rate he is going he'll be a legitimate GOAT candidate in 15 years.

That happens. Look at Wilt and Russell. I wonder how KG and Duncan will be compared 15 years from now.

I think Duncan is pretty solidified were he is. KG will likely move up some.

[shawngoat23]

Hakeem's in his retirement has made an amazing assent up the all time greatest list.

During his playing days he was considered to be comparable to David Robinson before their series and slightly better after. His peak was considered to be very high but not like he was playing borderline GOAT caliber ball. Now, its argued by some that his peak was as good as many GOAT candidates and that the Rockets were better off taking Hakeem rather than Jordan.

At the rate he is going he'll be a legitimate GOAT candidate in 15 years.

I agree he's climbed up the list. Something to consider though: there are a lot of Rockets fans on RealGM, and although I'm not one myself, I'm a big fan of the Dream.

Anyway, in my opinion, it's kind of a big crapshoot from the #7 spot down to #12 or so. I'll begrudgingly admit that Shaq is probably the most solid guy at #7, even though I don't like him, and because you can certainly make a case that Hakeem was better than Shaq, I don't think his lofty ranking is entirely undeserved.

[sp6r=underrated]

I agree he's climbed up the list. Something to consider though: there are a lot of Rockets fans on RealGM, and although I'm not one myself, I'm a big fan of the Dream.

Anyway, in my opinion, it's kind of a big crapshoot from the #7 spot down to #12 or so. I'll begrudgingly admit that Shaq is probably the most solid guy at #7, even though I don't like him, and because you can certainly make a case that Hakeem was better than Shaq, I don't think his lofty ranking is entirely undeserved.

I plug this post in the top 100 list, because its something I've been needing to say. I was reading through a bunch of old threads which compared Hakeem to guys like Kareem or Bird and there was a significant amount of posters who took Hakeem.

I can accept Hakeem at 7, but the way he just crushed Shaq, West, and Duncan in the voting and in the tone of some posts that applied there was a huge difference isn't really supported by the reality of his career.

Hakeem is a player who had many distinct stages in his career, with little overlap. Alot of Hakeem most ardent supporters just combine different seasons amongst Hakeem's career to create a sort of super Hakeem. The best example is how people combine the super rebounding Hakeem of the late 80s early 90 with the dominant scorer of the mid 90s.

I sort of deal with this in the Hakeem/Sampson, Duncan/Robinson who would you rather build around thread, so I'll just repost it:

The only way you can favor Olajuwon/Sampson is if you believe Hakeem was severely better than Duncan/Robinson. Now, there a lot posters on realgm who hold that view, and I'll make my standard point.

Hakeem's career does not consist of him playing like he did in 92/93-93/94 and the 94/95 playoffs. Early in his career, when he was at his truly elite on the boards and defense he was not as good of a scorer and was a sup-par passer. He also had a questionable attitude that resulted in him making a trade demand.

In 92/93 he made the leap in passing and scorer and played in my mind the best individual season of his career. That year he just had the misfortune of playing a team in Seattle that just owned the Rockets during that time period. Seattle from 90-91 to 95-96, playoffs included went 26-9 over Houston. It wasn't till 97 that Houston finally got over the Seattle hump and started beating the Sonics.

By 93/94 his defense was still amazing, but his rebounding at dropped a notch. Still a great season. By 94/95, he entered his peak as a scorer and was a great passer but he was no longer playing GOAT level D, and was a below average rebounding center (15.6 rebound rate regular season on a bad rebounding team, slightly over 14 in the playoffs).

Now this post is somewhat negative on purpose to counter an overly optimistic view of Hakeem on realgm. This view has developed because people only watch the Admiral and Ewing series and have the mistaken view that he dominated a very young Shaq. Also, Hakeem was a player whose game changed dramatically over his career and people take his strengths in different seasons and combine them together when in reality there was very little overlap. He is still a top 12 player of all time but not great enough to carry his team to victory in this competition.

[TheSheriff]

We about making the last 5 nominated guys who don't get voted in honorable mentions?

[penbeast0]

We about making the last 5 nominated guys who don't get voted in honorable mentions?

There's 100 of them already . . . I'd go the other way. Make the 100th player picked "Mr. Triple Digit" as a sort of dubious but real honor like the last guy picked in the NFL draft.

[sp6r=underrated]

McHale is too high on this list.

He doesn't have the accolades of a top 50 player. A seven time all-star who only made 1 All-NBA team, 1 top 5 MVP (and only received votes in two other seasons). For all the talk about his defense he was only voted to 3 1st All-Team NBA defensive teams, and 3 second team selections. The voters also got this one right because McHale was a good defender, but does not rank among the truly elite defenders of all time.

The only argument for him being this is high is that he sacrificed his game for the betterment of his team and as a result he has 3 championships. To begin with he played a very small role on the first championship team, he only played about 18.5 mpg regular season and post-season combined. When were talking about a top 100 list, a season were a player only played that little isn't relevant. So essentially a player was ranked in the top 50 for playing a prominent role on two championship teams.

It is only on the 3rd championship team that you can argue McHale was the second best Celtic. So, Why is he 19 spots higher than Parish? Because of one fluke season in 86/87. McHale supporters argue that but for the foot injury he would have been able to duplicate that level of play, but you can't just assume when other players who were selected later than him were able to play at a high level for several seasons.

McHale was a player with significant flaws in his game. In the view of his teammates, which is supported by the stats, and watching him play he was a poor passer, who also was a sup-par rebounder.

McHale supporters argue that his rebounding was diluted by playing with great rebounders. In 1986/1987, McHale's outlier season, the Celtics were a mediocre rebounding team, that was slightly outrebounded for the season. To put it another way that means there were plenty of rebounds available. McHale's rebound rate was still quite low that year 14.0 for a power forward. McHale's low rebounding totals is due to him being a bad rebounder not playing with great rebounding teammates.

If he was on a normal team those flaws would have been much more exploited. He wouldn't have seen nearly as much single coverage and his efficiency would drop as a result. His team would need him to rebound at a higher level but he wouldn't be able too. They instead would have a very good low post scorer who plays good defense. That's valuable but not top 50 value of all time, even after you give him credit for intangibles and winning 3 championships, playing a big role on 2, and being the 2nd best player on one.