Retro POY '07-08 (Voting Complete)

[sp6r=underrated]

'07-08 Results

Code: Select all

Player             1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Kevin Garnett     9   6   5   3   0 166   0.692
2. Kobe Bryant       6   7   7   4   0 156   0.650
3. LeBron James      6   4   6   8   0 142   0.592
4. Chris Paul        3   7   6   8   0 133   0.554
5. Tim Duncan        0   0   0   1  16  19   0.079
6. Dirk Nowitzki     0   0   0   0   3   3   0.013
   Steve Nash        0   0   0   0   3   3   0.013
8. Amar'e Stoudemire 0   0   0   0   1   1   0.004
   Paul Pierce       0   0   0   0   1   1   0.004


Wow, this year had no consensus. I should add again, in the interest of fairness since I defended him hard in the 07 thread, I think Duncan was too high this year. His defense wasn't nearly as great and he played very poorly in the PS.

[Optimism Prime]

'07-08 Results

Code: Select all

Player             1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Kevin Garnett     9   6   5   3   0 166   0.692
2. Kobe Bryant       6   7   7   4   0 156   0.650
3. LeBron James      6   4   6   8   0 142   0.592
4. Chris Paul        3   7   6   8   0 133   0.554
5. Tim Duncan        0   0   0   1  16  19   0.079
6. Dirk Nowitzki     0   0   0   0   3   3   0.013
   Steve Nash        0   0   0   0   3   3   0.013
8. Amar'e Stoudemire 0   0   0   0   1   1   0.004
   Paul Pierce       0   0   0   0   1   1   0.004


MVP results/shares:
Kobe Bryant - .877
Chris Paul - .706
Kevin Garnett - .532
Lebron James - .348
Dwight Howard - .048
Amare Stoudemire - .021
Tim Duncan - .020
Tracy McGrady - .015
Steve Nash - .014
Manu Ginobili - .007
Dirk Nowitzki - .004
Deron Williams - .003
Carmelo Anthony - .002
Carlos Boozer - .001
Antawn Jamison - .001
Paul Pierce - .001
Rasheed Wallace - .001

Just like with us--first four are pretty clearly a level above the rest of the field.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

So I don't think I am voting unreasonably here -

Seeing as how Kevin Garnett just won the voting, and Pierce only received one vote from anyone (you), and Kobe finished 2nd to Garnett, yes, I think you're voting unreasonably, and with purpose as well.

[Doctor MJ]

Wow, this year had no consensus. I should add again, in the interest of fairness since I defended him hard in the 07 thread, I think Duncan was too high this year. His defense wasn't nearly as great and he played very poorly in the PS.

Yeah, it was fun to see it play out. Funny thing - Kobe actually got more POY shares in '08-09 than he did in '07-08 (0.681 vs 0.650) because of the way the top 4 bounced around this year. Was not expecting this.

I think the strangest thing to me was no votes for Dwight (and I'll give a shout out to ItsMillerTime who I haven't let in yet, but who did vote for Dwight) after he was so strong in '08-09, and after he finished 5th in the MVP voting.

[Doctor MJ]

Just like with us--first four are pretty clearly a level above the rest of the field.

Thanks for posting OP. Cool to see the results next to each other.

[sp6r=underrated]

Wow, this year had no consensus. I should add again, in the interest of fairness since I defended him hard in the 07 thread, I think Duncan was too high this year. His defense wasn't nearly as great and he played very poorly in the PS.

Yeah, it was fun to see it play out. Funny thing - Kobe actually got more POY shares in '08-09 than he did in '07-08 (0.681 vs 0.650) because of the way the top 4 bounced around this year. Was not expecting this.

I think the strangest thing to me was no votes for Dwight (and I'll give a shout out to ItsMillerTime who I haven't let in yet, but who did vote for Dwight) after he was so strong in '08-09, and after he finished 5th in the MVP voting.

I'm looking forward to the mess of 2006. One of the strangest seasons in NBA history

Lebron: First great season
KG: Great season but this and 2007 were the years his supporting cast was just awful
Dirk: Monster RS, destroys Spurs in series leading everyone to believe title is Dallas, but finals happen
Wade: overlooked RS because people gave too much credit to Shaq, epic PS
Kobe: Monster RS, PS numbers dropped but this is mainly due to designs of PJ IMO, who wanted to exploit lack of size in Phoenix
Nash: Answers critics that claimed Suns success was due Amare (this is forgotten now, but there were many people making that claim going into 06), amazing PS
TD: terrible injury riddled RS, great PS

I'm sure I am missing other players here as well.

[Doctor MJ]

So I don't think I am voting unreasonably here -

Seeing as how Kevin Garnett just won the voting, and Pierce only received one vote from anyone (you), and Kobe finished 2nd to Garnett, yes, I think you're voting unreasonably, and with purpose as well.

Tim, please don't jump into this project just to question the sincerity of the guys in it. I'm trying really hard to keep this thing positive because otherwise it's never going to last as good sized group all the way back to the 40s.

I welcome outsider thoughts at any time, but please keep it about the basketball, not about the posters.

Doc

[Silver Bullet]

drza showed that Garnett was the leading 4th quarter scorer, the leading scorer in the last few minutes, and clinched more games with late buckets than Pierce did.

But yea, Pierce got carried off and hit some 3's.

You're entitled to your own beliefs, just don't make things up like "they always hopped on Pierce's back, when it was already proven otherwise. Pierce was the Tony Parker or Manu, except he wasn't nearly as consistent.

Dude - you're the one person on this board who should know that me not voting for Garnett is pretty consistent with my track record here - I've had many arguments with you similar to this one over Garnett's value over the years. If your only beef is that I should have had Garnett instead of Peirce, sure that's a legit beef - I could've put Garnett 5th - it's only 1 point: it wouldn't have been material.

And I don't know about drza showing anything - there is still something to be said about the eye test - I mean, you can use adjusted plus minus to show that Garbajosa hurt the Raptors in 06-07 - I'll never buy it. You could use it to show that Anthony Parker had a close to zero impact in 06-07, I'll never buy it. You could use stats to show Chris Bosh is a good defender - again I won't buy it.
I use stats as a factor in my decision making, but my decision making is not based on stats alone.

[NO-KG-AI]

Naw, I don't have a problem with someone not choosing Garnett, but people that keep pretending Pierce was carrying the team, or even the leading scorer is getting stale.

I'm not even talking about +/- numbers, PER, or whatever else that is glaringly in KG's favor, the raw scoring numbers don't even support Pierce. Like was mentioned, I don't know how a guy can be the leading scorer, the leading 4th quarter scorer, the leading late game scorer.

I think people are remembering it different because the very last second shot was almost always the Pierce ISO, but the main play down the stretch of games was when Doc would move KG to the post, and he was killing it. That's what kept the first 3 series from seeing Boston get knocked out, while Pierce was pulling a disappearing act. His PPG and FG% must be totally laughable when you take out the 40+ point game, and the 38 pointer that they lost in LA.

KG was still the top player in the opening game of the Finals, and he was the best player when they went on to demolish them in game 6.

I don't really care who wins this vote or who anyone votes on, I just have a problem with misinformation being parroted by people with clear agendas for or against certain players.

Garnett was far and away the best player in the regular season and playoffs, and if anybody REALLY had a case for finals MVP over Garnett, it was Ray Allen, who finally came back to life. Pierce got it because of the dramatics, because he was the long time Celtic, and because he had the big point game.

[Doctor MJ]

I'm looking forward to the mess of 2006. One of the strangest seasons in NBA history

Lebron: First great season
KG: Great season but this and 2007 were the years his supporting cast was just awful
Dirk: Monster RS, destroys Spurs in series leading everyone to believe title is Dallas, but finals happen
Wade: overlooked RS because people gave too much credit to Shaq, epic PS
Kobe: Monster RS, PS numbers dropped but this is mainly due to designs of PJ IMO, who wanted to exploit lack of size in Phoenix
Nash: Answers critics that claimed Suns success was due Amare (this is forgotten now, but there were many people making that claim going into 06), amazing PS
TD: terrible injury riddled RS, great PS

I'm sure I am missing other players here as well.

Well there's Billups as well, though he won't be in my top 5. '06 is a season I could totally be swayed to some new opinions.

[Bgil]

^ And that's probably my mistake, because that's invariably how I end up looking at them. I still need to get a handle on exactly what these formulas are telling us.

Regarding Radmanovic -- a classic example of how stats, even advanced ones, can misconstrue. Unless there's hidden value in a one-dimensional, inconsistent 3-point shooter that I'm missing.

Vlad was an extremely credible floor spacer on a team that completely lacked floor spacing at his position (3/4 - Ariza, Odom, Walton, Turiaf etc.). After seeing how teams cheated off Artest to disrupt the Laker offense it should be obvious why having an elite three point threat at this position causes such numbers.