RealGM Top 100 List #5

[E-Balla]

Yea, the difference is LeBron is actually a better player than Duncan, who would've known?

Lebron is a better player than Duncan. Duncan's only argument left is longevity which is legitimate but if this was simply prime v prime Lebron wins hands down.

This 'alternate universe' isn't as alternate anymore since Duncan isn't anywhere close to replicating his former impact yet the Spurs are playing the best basketball I've ever seen them play. What does that say? People are acting like if you removed Duncan from the Spurs they'd fall completely apart.

Oh, and stop with this 'exhibiting HOF coaching prior to Duncan'. Pop barely coached before Duncan came into the NBA. And yes, his coaching 15 years ago obviously wasn't as good as now (doesn't also mean he was trash). It's called experience.

Doesn't the italicized portion partly answer the underlined question? It seems contradictory to argue that Popovich has improved as a coach since he began and to dismiss the view without consideration that the Spurs would fall apart without Duncan during his prime years.

By fall apart, I mean fall from title contention to playoff team not worse in the league.

Prime vs prime? Duncan wins. Lebron might win peak vs peak but it's extremely close. I see a lot of underrating of Duncan here. Remember he did what Lebron did in Cleveland (01-03) but he actually won a ring.

[RayBan-Sematra]

I don't' see the point of extracting Peak Kobe

Because the majority are agreed upon Peak Shaq being better and we are comparing the two.

and then comparing his numbers in a tough West to to 95-99 Shaq

Shaq was the focal point of opposing defenses. Kobe was not.

And no doubt Shaq has the better numbers anyway. The problem....is that they're just numbers, and that impact is more than a box score.

Advanced stats all point to Shaq being more impactful.

What happened to Shaq's teams from 95-99?

From 95-96 he faced very strong teams in elimination.
From 96-99 he lacked the support & coaching needed to knock off well oiled Jazz teams and a well coached and streaking Spurs team. I give him some blame for 97/99 though because he underperformed in elimination.

You think 00 Kobe would lead the 95 Magic to the Finals and then perform better then Shaq did?
You think 01 Kobe would beat the 96 Bulls or even perform better then Shaq did? I say no to both but they definitely still lose.
You think 02 Kobe would beat the 97 Jazz? Shaq wasn't all that great against them but Kobe was a 26 / 4 on 48%TS guy against the West in 02 while not being the main focus of opposing defenses.
You think 03 Kobe would beat a well oiled Jazz team that beat the Lakers even when Shaq was dropping b2b 38+pt games? I highly doubt it.
You think 04 Kobe would beat the streaking 99 Spurs?

I don't see it. pre-Peak Kobe would have had less success in that time span then pre-Peak Shaq did with similar performing support.

On the other hand I think the Shaq led 95/96 Magic would have a very strong chance to 2peat if they faced the playoff/finals competition Kobe faced in 09/10.

Ignoring competition, luck and circumstances and just saying (my guy won so he is better) is illogical.

But hey, give me 2001 Playoff Kobe over any version of 95-99 Shaq in the playoffs.

I'll take 95/98 and maybe 96 Shaq over 01 Kobe even assuming Kobe could have performed aswell as the focal point of a team.

Point blank, Kobe did better than Shaq when they had similar support.

Did he?
Shaq from 00-02 3peated with one All-Star at his side against tougher competition then Kobe faced from 08-10 in a league that changed its rules to hamper C's.
Kobe from 08-10 2peated with one All-Star + one sixth man of the year in a league that had changed its rules to benefit wing players.

[ThaRegul8r]

Rudy was a good coach, but lets not make him out to be a genius or HOF coach. All his innovation tapered off as Olajuwon declined. He had health problems towards the end but became mediocre before that.

I'm going to be blunt in that this isn't convincing to me. There's been discussion on whether he should make the Hall of Fame, and if he does, that doesn't make Hakeem any less of a player. Coaches can only stand on the sideline and watch, while the players are the ones who actually have to perform on the court.

You blithely ignore that what Tomjanovich did then became common practice since then. You missed Charles Smith's comment that if the Knicks understood spacing the way the Rockets did, it would help their offense. You seem to be one of those people who take any praise of someone as diminution of your guy. The main thrust of your argument seems to be what Hakeem didn't have instead of focusing on what Hakeem actually did. I want to know what Hakeem did. Start focusing on that.

[sp6r=underrated]

Prime vs prime? Duncan wins.

I've rooted for Duncan very heavily over his career but the evidence is overwhelming in favor of Lebron. Statistically he beats up on Duncan by almost every metric, RS and PS. My impression from watching both play is that Lebron was a level up.

[ThaRegul8r]

Did I miss something or is someone voting for Kobe at #5 here?

As I said in my predictions (though admittedly one has already been disproven), the Kobe people will be fighting to keep Kobe in the top ten with the rise of LeBron since the last project. So it wouldn't be surprising to see an early push.

[microfib4thewin]

Ok, you can believe in what you want bro, but at least drop this '97 stuff. I already told you what happened. The Spurs had key injures all over the roster including their primary star Robinson. Pop adopted this crippled roster one quart into the season when they were 3-15 and just rode the season out, because there wasn't anything he could realistically do. Using that as any sort of evidence against Pop is just ludicrous. That's like trying to make a case against Riley using the '03 Heat.

Yea, the difference is LeBron is actually a better player than Duncan, who would've known?

I think talking about '97 is extremely relevant to discussing what Pop's coaching ability was when he started his coaching gig. If Pop was an amazing coach the moment he took over then he should be able to push the Spurs to be a mediocre team despite the bad circumstances he was in, but the Spurs had a 22 win pace with Pop and they ended the season with -7.93 SRS. The only way you can say Pop made a huge positive influence is if you believe the '97 Spurs will rival the worst teams in NBA history without Pop, here are some of those teams for comparison:

1993 Mavs(11-71, -14.68 SRS)
1997 Grizzlies(14-68, -10.17 SRS)
1998 Nuggets(11-71, -11.74 SRS)
2010 Nets(12-70, -8.93 SRS)

Given that the Spurs was on pace for 13 wins with Bob Hill it is still within the realm of possibility.

Duncan didn't put himself over his teammates. Cool. Neither did D-Rob, Parker, Ginobili, and any of the guys that played for Pop. You know why? Because Pop made it a' staple' that he wasn't having none of that since day 1 and Duncan didn't effect that philosophy one iota.

I am sure that would fly well for most of the superstars. KG would probably tell Pop to stfu if he even dare lecture him.

[sp6r=underrated]

I am sure that would fly well for most of the superstars. KG would probably tell Pop to stfu if he even dare lecture him.

This is nonsense. I do think there are certain types of players who would tell Pop to fly a kite. Rodman and Pop would not have been able to hold it together. KG isn't one of those players.

[E-Balla]

Prime vs prime? Duncan wins.

I've rooted for Duncan very heavily over his career but the evidence is overwhelming in favor of Lebron. Statistically he beats up on Duncan by almost every metric, RS and PS. My impression from watching both play is that Lebron was a level up.

Well by raw on/off they look about even (Duncan from 01-07 which is his prime and Lebron from 08-14) with Duncan having a +11.2 on and a +11.5 on/off and Lebron having a +9.5 on and a +12.8 on/off.

I will say looking at raw numbers Lebron is better but Isaiah Thomas is better than Mike Conley going off the numbers. The evidence isn't overwhelming to Lebron but they do slightly lean towards him.

[MacGill]

I'm going to cast my vote for Shaq here. Schedule is a bit uncertain and while I enjoyed reading the Hakeem/Duncan posts, I am still convinced that Shaq was the better player, even if it wasn't in the exact mold of dominant bigs in the past.

Best offensive anchor of the bigs here and anchored good to great defensive squads over his career. Whether posters want to say...well he could have done this better etc, dude was far from piss poor and his numbers back this up. His personality and size certainly made it easier for critics to criticize him but when I look at what he did on the court, you can't deny his dominance.

[penbeast0]

Yea, the difference is LeBron is actually a better player than Duncan, who would've known?

Lebron is a better player than Duncan. Duncan's only argument left is longevity which is legitimate but if this was simply prime v prime Lebron wins hands down.....

Is LeBron a better prime player than Duncan? There's another argument for Duncan and that's defensive impact. As terrific a defender as LeBron is, and he is very good, Duncan's impact is on another level. Part of that is just because bigs impact the game more; part is a focus on defense. But great defense wins as many titles as great offense and I don't think many people will deny that Duncan's defense is superior to LeBron's in terms of impact on winning.

[ThaRegul8r]

I'm going to cast my vote for Shaq here. Schedule is a bit uncertain and while I enjoyed reading the Hakeem/Duncan posts, I am still convinced that Shaq was the better player, even if it wasn't in the exact mold of dominant bigs in the past.

Best offensive anchor of the bigs here and anchored good to great defensive squads over his career. Whether posters want to say...well he could have done this better etc, dude was far from piss poor and his numbers back this up.

False dichotomy. And it irks me how frequently this is done.

[therealbig3]

Yea, the difference is LeBron is actually a better player than Duncan, who would've known?

Lebron is a better player than Duncan. Duncan's only argument left is longevity which is legitimate but if this was simply prime v prime Lebron wins hands down.....

Is LeBron a better prime player than Duncan? There's another argument for Duncan and that's defensive impact. As terrific a defender as LeBron is, and he is very good, Duncan's impact is on another level. Part of that is just because bigs impact the game more; part is a focus on defense. But great defense wins as many titles as great offense and I don't think many people will deny that Duncan's defense is superior to LeBron's in terms of impact on winning.

But LeBron's offense blows Duncan's out of the water. I think it's pretty clear that LeBron's offensive advantage is larger than Duncan's defensive advantage.

[Mutnt]

Prime vs prime? Duncan wins. Lebron might win peak vs peak but it's extremely close. I see a lot of underrating of Duncan here. Remember he did what Lebron did in Cleveland (01-03) but he actually won a ring.

No, no. None of that, 'he' won a ring stuff. Prove to me, through stats and metrics that Duncan did more heavy lifting for his teams than LeBron.

[therealbig3]

An old KG who probably knows more about the game than Jason Kidd passively stood by and did whatever was asked of him by that rookie, inexperienced coach. So a younger KG who didn't have as much experience would rebel against Pop? Especially when he never had a problem with Flip?

[penbeast0]

But LeBron's offense blows Duncan's out of the water. I think it's pretty clear that LeBron's offensive advantage is larger than Duncan's defensive advantage.

Prove that to me and I'll switch my vote.

[microfib4thewin]

This is nonsense. I do think there are certain types of players who would tell Pop to fly a kite. Rodman and Pop would not have been able to hold it together. KG isn't one of those players.

How well would a guy that like to yell at others react to being yelled at? KG has always been a guy who lets everyone know what is on his mind. He would either need to completely change his personality to work under Pop or Pop has to compromise in order to work with KG. If KG has to change himself then who knows what kind of player he will become. If Pop has to compromise then he would not be running his ideal system anymore.

[E-Balla]

Prime vs prime? Duncan wins. Lebron might win peak vs peak but it's extremely close. I see a lot of underrating of Duncan here. Remember he did what Lebron did in Cleveland (01-03) but he actually won a ring.

No, no. None of that, 'he' won a ring stuff. Prove to me, through stats and metrics that Duncan did more heavy lifting for his teams than LeBron.

Duncan's on/off in the playoffs 2001-03 = +27.4
Lebron's career high on/off in the playoffs = +24.6
Lebron's playoff on/off from his last 3 years with Cleveland = +18.3

Major difference in their on/off from their 3 years of heavy lifting. One got a ring and the other couldn't beat a 50 win team.

[RayBan-Sematra]

But LeBron's offense blows Duncan's out of the water. I think it's pretty clear that LeBron's offensive advantage is larger than Duncan's defensive advantage.

I think that would make an interesting discussion.

Can you post their elimination series stats from their first 9 playoff appearances?
I say 9 since I believe Lebron has only been in the playoffs 9 times.

Example of elimination series would be
Lebron 07 : His series VS the Spurs
Duncan 02 : His series VS the Lakers

This includes elimination series where they won the title like Duncan VS the Nets in 03 and LBJ VS OKC in 12.

[90sAllDecade]

Rudy was a good coach, but lets not make him out to be a genius or HOF coach. All his innovation tapered off as Olajuwon declined. He had health problems towards the end but became mediocre before that.

I'm going to be blunt in that this isn't convincing to me. There's been discussion on whether he should make the Hall of Fame, and if he does, that doesn't make Hakeem any less of a player. Coaches can only stand on the sideline and watch, while the players are the ones who actually have to perform on the court.

You blithely ignore that what Tomjanovich did then became common practice since then. You missed Charles Smith's comment that if the Knicks understood spacing the way the Rockets did, it would help their offense. You seem to be one of those people who take any praise of someone as diminution of your guy. The main thrust of your argument seems to be what Hakeem didn't have instead of focusing on what Hakeem actually did. I want to know what Hakeem did. Start focusing on that.

Honestly, I showed the other side of the coin with regards to the coaching article and said he was a good coach, you posted articles and I did the same. I also showed Rudy's coaching record during Hakeem's decline, as well as Red or Phil's record without their stars or in decline. And I've acknowledged when other players had greater strengths or vice versa.

Really I don't think anything I say will persuade folks one way or another regardless of evidence. There's an media based emotional championship or offensive bias that can't be overcome by and new facts of data as well as a large fanbase here for certain players or teams participating.

I'll post about the Sonics but I don't think it will matter either way as people are already set in their opinions.

[john248]

My vote is for Magic Johnson. He was the prototype positionless player coming in by playing multiple roles/positions and playing at an all-star level. By 84, he's running Showtime as a full-time offensive point though he probably should've been in this role earlier; 87, he blows up and keeps his all-time level play until his 1st retirement. In his 87 peak year, he led the greatest offense in NBA history. Throughout his career, he's had to take an increased offensive role whether due to roster changes or the declines of other players.

RS: 19.5ppg/7.2reb/11.2ast/1.9stl/61%TS, per100 25.4/9.4/14.5/2.5
PS: 19.4ppg/7.7reb/12.3ast/1.9stl/59.5%TS, per100 23.9/9.5/15.1/2.3

Absolute playoff stud who still kept his high level of play in such an atmosphere. Ideal point to make his teammates better while exploiting an advantage he could take to score. Height made it so that he was a great rebounder for his position leading to being out in transition quicker while also being able to play the high post which opened up yet more passing lanes. Considered the greatest offensive player ever due to amazing skill set. Involved in 9 Finals, 5 Champs, so naturally there were deep playoff runs...a transcendent player and cornerstone to build around and compete yearly and still led the #1 offense after KAJ retired.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... sma02.html

Magic has 2 knocks which are his longevity and defense. He has just 11 good seasons where he's near or at all-time levels from 86 on. Being in a weaker conference isn't a huge deal in this case mainly because we're talking about a player who went to the Finals 9 times, so we're not talking about a team that was involved in upsets. Weak one on one defender though passable on team defense. It does put added strain on the team as they now put their better defender on whoever Magic was supposed to guard. Overall net though is what matters. He's probably the greatest offensive mind to ever play the game.