LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0

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Re: LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0 

Post#281 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:41 am

LA Bird wrote:Skimmed through the thread and noticed this blatant revisionist history that somehow didn't get called out

VanWest82 wrote:2020 Lakers looked like they were shot out of a cannon in the bubble. They had clearly benefitted from the time off and looked like they'd been able to continue practicing together. Many stars/teams weren't able to do that due to lockdowns and looked significantly worse than they had months earlier.

It's unclear how much either of these circumstances impacted the end result but one could certainly make a case Lebron specifically benefitted both times.

The Lakers net rating went from +7.1 to -6.6 during the bubble, the largest decline of any team in the league. They had the second worst net rating out of the bubble teams ahead of only the Beal-less Wizards and they were so awful offensively during those bubble games that it dragged them down from the 4th best offense to outside of the top 10 for the season. Saying the Lakers looked like they were shot out of a cannon in the bubble puts into doubt whether you even watched any actual games at all.


Good call out.
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Re: LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0 

Post#282 » by G35 » Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:26 pm

ty 4191 wrote:Lebron faced better teams in the NBA Finals. Overall. Period.

It's not even close.


Sources:
https://www.sportscasting.com/heres-the-real-difference-in-the-nba-finals-records-of-michael-jordan-and-lebron-james/

https://www.actionnetwork.com/nba/betting-odds-history-1990s-chicago-bulls-dynasty-michael-jordan

Jordan's teams were favorites to win every single NBA Finals he played in. Lebron's teams were only favorites 30% of his 10 Finals.

1991: -200 favorites
1992:-250 favorites
1993: -240 favorites
1996: -950 favorites
1997: -600 favorites
1998: -115 favorites

So now let’s look at what LeBron James’ teams were expected to do in the NBA Finals.

2007 Cleveland Cavaliers: +360 underdogs
2011 Miami Heat: -175 favorites
2012 Miami Heat: +155 underdogs
2013 Miami Heat: -220 favorites
2014 Miami Heat: +135 underdogs
2015 Cleveland Cavaliers: +190 underdogs
2016 Cleveland Cavaliers: +180 underdogs
2017 Cleveland Cavaliers: +250 underdogs
2018 Cleveland Cavaliers: +688 underdogs
2020 Los Angeles Lakers: -350 favorites

(So, yes, perhaps, 4-6 in 17 seasons is more impressive than 6-0 in 15 seasons.)



Every time someone mentions that Lebron faced better competition, you need to also mention that Lebron was horrible at building great teams.....period.....
I'm so tired of the typical......
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Re: LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0 

Post#283 » by VanWest82 » Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:57 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
LA Bird wrote:Skimmed through the thread and noticed this blatant revisionist history that somehow didn't get called out

VanWest82 wrote:2020 Lakers looked like they were shot out of a cannon in the bubble. They had clearly benefitted from the time off and looked like they'd been able to continue practicing together. Many stars/teams weren't able to do that due to lockdowns and looked significantly worse than they had months earlier.

It's unclear how much either of these circumstances impacted the end result but one could certainly make a case Lebron specifically benefitted both times.

The Lakers net rating went from +7.1 to -6.6 during the bubble, the largest decline of any team in the league. They had the second worst net rating out of the bubble teams ahead of only the Beal-less Wizards and they were so awful offensively during those bubble games that it dragged them down from the 4th best offense to outside of the top 10 for the season. Saying the Lakers looked like they were shot out of a cannon in the bubble puts into doubt whether you even watched any actual games at all.


Good call out.


L.O.L.

I was referring to the playoffs not the 8 games Lakers basically treated as preseason given they already had the #1 seed locked up. What's your guys' counter-argument, that LBJ, AD, Rondo, etc., didn't look refreshed and noticeably sharper than some other teams in bubble playoffs? Heat were another example, and also a team rumored to have spent time practicing together during the lockdowns. Compare that to teams like Raptors and Bucks who had guys locked in their apartments, unable to get into practice facilities alongside their teammates for months.

You guys are so ridiculously biased you're willing to dismiss documented facts as evidence that certain circumstances might have led to an advantage. And btw, I give credit to Lakers and Heat for taking full advantage where others didn't/couldn't. But they did have an advantage.
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Re: LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0 

Post#284 » by LukaTheGOAT » Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:54 pm

Don't people usually say Titles have asterisks because certain players are injured and/or out? And therefore, shouldn't that make the 2020 Bubble title appealing because we got to see what teams could do moreso in the PS at full health?
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Re: LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0 

Post#285 » by VanWest82 » Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:17 am

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Don't people usually say Titles have asterisks because certain players are injured and/or out? And therefore, shouldn't that make the 2020 Bubble title appealing because we got to see what teams could do moreso in the PS at full health?


Outside of perhaps 2021 when seemingly half the league was injured, 2020 playoffs had the largest variation of players and teams being ready to play in the history of the sport. Not only were there massive discrepancies in terms of physical fitness and recent time spent in the gym practicing due to lockdowns, the pandemic and bubble environment created huge variance in guys being ready to play from the standpoint of mental health.

The bubble title would be the biggest asterisk title of all titles if asterisk titles existed which they don't. (edit: Houston Astros might qualify)
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Re: LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0 

Post#286 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:26 am

VanWest82 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
LA Bird wrote:Skimmed through the thread and noticed this blatant revisionist history that somehow didn't get called out


The Lakers net rating went from +7.1 to -6.6 during the bubble, the largest decline of any team in the league. They had the second worst net rating out of the bubble teams ahead of only the Beal-less Wizards and they were so awful offensively during those bubble games that it dragged them down from the 4th best offense to outside of the top 10 for the season. Saying the Lakers looked like they were shot out of a cannon in the bubble puts into doubt whether you even watched any actual games at all.


Good call out.


L.O.L.

I was referring to the playoffs not the 8 games Lakers basically treated as preseason given they already had the #1 seed locked up. What's your guys' counter-argument, that LBJ, AD, Rondo, etc., didn't look refreshed and noticeably sharper than some other teams in bubble playoffs? Heat were another example, and also a team rumored to have spent time practicing together during the lockdowns. Compare that to teams like Raptors and Bucks who had guys locked in their apartments, unable to get into practice facilities alongside their teammates for months.

You guys are so ridiculously biased you're willing to dismiss documented facts as evidence that certain circumstances might have led to an advantage. And btw, I give credit to Lakers and Heat for taking full advantage where others didn't/couldn't. But they did have an advantage.


Compare that to Raptors and Bucks, who aren't in the Lakers conference...


You're saying dismiss documented facts in a post where someone literally posted facts to refute your point. Your rebuttal is "they look sharper" - which isn't a fact, and doesn't even make sense.

How could they not look sharp during the RS (or preseason as you call it), but during the PS they look super sharp due to training that would have happened a long time ago - with RS play between it? That would also mean that the other teams would have had time to practice together by then - because the playoffs take place after the regular season, genius.

Hypothetically, they train during the pandemic. Come in the RS, but aren't looking good (because you say they're not trying or something). Then they look amazing in the playoffs...due to the training they did weeks ago before they played lazy.

Meanwhile, all the teams playing in the bubble, who are even playing at a higher level than the Lakers, are somehow incredibly rusty, despite the fact they're literally playing right up until the playoffs for one month just like the lazy Lakers are. Did you even think this through before making this up?

Maybe they looked better than everyone else because...they were the eventual champions?

Also, the the biggest contender and threat were the LA Clippers...who play in the same city as the LA Lakers - hence the name LA. So, which teams did the Lakers have an advantage again?
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Re: LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0 

Post#287 » by VanWest82 » Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:30 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:Compare that to Raptors and Bucks, who aren't in the Lakers conference...

Wait, you don't think Lakers main rival, Clippers, getting derailed by Paul George having mental health issues as a result of the bubble wasn't a big advantage? https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/31479617/la-clippers-paul-george-says-big-difference-mental-health-now-vs-bubble

Or how about the fact that Lakers had several key older players who have had injury trouble the last few seasons but benefitted from time off and bubble injuries being way down. https://www.basketballnews.com/stories/nba-bubble-injuries-fewer-hurt-out-games-missed-playoffs-study-orlando-players

You're saying dismiss documented facts in a post where someone literally posted facts to refute your point. Your rebuttal is "they look sharper" - which isn't a fact, and doesn't even make sense.

How could they not look sharp during the RS (or preseason as you call it), but during the PS they look super sharp due to training that would have happened a long time ago - with RS play between it? That would also mean that the other teams would have had time to practice together by then - because the playoffs take place after the regular season, genius.

Beacuse teams don't try as hard in meaningless games?? Are you serious?

Meanwhile, all the teams playing in the bubble, who are even playing at a higher level than the Lakers, are somehow incredibly rusty, despite the fact they're literally playing right up until the playoffs for one month just like the lazy Lakers are. Did you even think this through before making this up?

All of the teams? Clearly you're the one making crap up that I never said.

Maybe they looked better than everyone else because...they were the eventual champions?

Here's the money quote. LOL. Maybe they were eventual champions who dominated the bubble playoffs in part because they were in incredible condition for such an old team, and maybe that happened because they benefitted from the time off and fewer injuries in the bubble. And of course there's this...

https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/sports/lakers-lebron-james-reportedly-holding-private-workouts-with-teammates-during-nba-suspension/2366867/
https://www.btimesonline.com/articles/132520/20200523/did-lebron-james-breach-lockdown-rules-lakers-superstar-reportedly-holding-private-workouts.htm
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2892808-lakers-rumors-lebron-james-held-private-workouts-with-teammates-amid-covid-19

I'm thinking the Clippers probably weren't invited but nice try though.
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Re: LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0 

Post#288 » by Bruh Man » Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:43 pm

VanWest82 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:Don't people usually say Titles have asterisks because certain players are injured and/or out? And therefore, shouldn't that make the 2020 Bubble title appealing because we got to see what teams could do moreso in the PS at full health?


Outside of perhaps 2021 when seemingly half the league was injured, 2020 playoffs had the largest variation of players and teams being ready to play in the history of the sport. Not only were there massive discrepancies in terms of physical fitness and recent time spent in the gym practicing due to lockdowns, the pandemic and bubble environment created huge variance in guys being ready to play from the standpoint of mental health.

The bubble title would be the biggest asterisk title of all titles if asterisk titles existed which they don't. (edit: Houston Astros might qualify)

Did you guys even watch those playoffs? it definitely shouldn’t have an asterisk we had some of the best series of the last couple years in the bubble. Lakers had to go some really good teams for the title, and they didn’t have the home court advantage they would have had if not for the pandemic.
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Re: LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0 

Post#289 » by VanWest82 » Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:52 pm

Bruh Man wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:The bubble title would be the biggest asterisk title of all titles if asterisk titles existed which they don't. (edit: Houston Astros might qualify)

Did you guys even watch those playoffs? it definitely shouldn’t have an asterisk we had some of the best series of the last couple years in the bubble. Lakers had to go some really good teams for the title, and they didn’t have the home court advantage they would have had if not for the pandemic.


No home court advantage would be solid point if Lebron hadn't spent the entire last decade sandbagging regular seasons so he could be fresher for playoffs.

As for the really good teams part...Blazers -0.61 SRS, Rockets +3.13 SRS, Nuggets +2.35 SRS, Heat +2.59 SRS. Someone did this analysis a while back but I'm pretty sure Lakers 2020 title run had the easiest collection of opponents on record. Maybe someone can correct me there. It might've only been top 3 easiest.
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Re: LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0 

Post#290 » by Bruh Man » Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:04 pm

VanWest82 wrote:
Bruh Man wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:The bubble title would be the biggest asterisk title of all titles if asterisk titles existed which they don't. (edit: Houston Astros might qualify)

Did you guys even watch those playoffs? it definitely shouldn’t have an asterisk we had some of the best series of the last couple years in the bubble. Lakers had to go some really good teams for the title, and they didn’t have the home court advantage they would have had if not for the pandemic.


No home court advantage would be solid point if Lebron hadn't spent the entire last decade sandbagging regular seasons so he could be fresher for playoffs.

As for the really good teams part...Blazers -0.61 SRS, Rockets +3.13 SRS, Nuggets +2.35 SRS, Heat +2.59 SRS. Someone did this analysis a while back but I'm pretty sure Lakers 2020 title run had the easiest collection of opponents on record. Maybe someone can correct me there. It might've only been top 3 easiest.

if you think those teams were the weakest in history then i don’t know what to tell you, Lebron himself had much easier roads to the finals playing in the east.
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Re: LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0 

Post#291 » by VanWest82 » Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:16 pm

Bruh Man wrote:if you think those teams were the weakest in history then i don’t know what to tell you, Lebron himself had much easier roads to the finals playing in the east.


I would be inclined to agree with the bolded statement. In fact, one might argue that most of his roads to the Finals in the East were easier which again is why his Finals record isn't nearly as impressive as one might think at first glance. Good job bringing this thread back on topic.

The difference is that in other years he had Spurs or Warriors to balance out his playoff SOS whereas in 2020 he had a #5 seed 44 win Heat team missing one of their key pieces in Dragic who was responsible for helping get them to Finals in the first place.
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Re: LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0 

Post#292 » by dcstanley » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:34 pm

VanWest82 wrote:
Bruh Man wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:The bubble title would be the biggest asterisk title of all titles if asterisk titles existed which they don't. (edit: Houston Astros might qualify)

Did you guys even watch those playoffs? it definitely shouldn’t have an asterisk we had some of the best series of the last couple years in the bubble. Lakers had to go some really good teams for the title, and they didn’t have the home court advantage they would have had if not for the pandemic.

No home court advantage would be solid point if Lebron hadn't spent the entire last decade sandbagging regular seasons so he could be fresher for playoffs.

How do previous seasons have any bearing on the fact that the Lakers earned HCA and were not able to reap the benefits? They were disadvantaged by not being able to exercise their HCA, plain and simple.
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Re: LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0 

Post#293 » by falcolombardi » Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:05 pm

VanWest82 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:Compare that to Raptors and Bucks, who aren't in the Lakers conference...

Wait, you don't think Lakers main rival, Clippers, getting derailed by Paul George having mental health issues as a result of the bubble wasn't a big advantage? https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/31479617/la-clippers-paul-george-says-big-difference-mental-health-now-vs-bubble

Or how about the fact that Lakers had several key older players who have had injury trouble the last few seasons but benefitted from time off and bubble injuries being way down. https://www.basketballnews.com/stories/nba-bubble-injuries-fewer-hurt-out-games-missed-playoffs-study-orlando-players

You're saying dismiss documented facts in a post where someone literally posted facts to refute your point. Your rebuttal is "they look sharper" - which isn't a fact, and doesn't even make sense.

How could they not look sharp during the RS (or preseason as you call it), but during the PS they look super sharp due to training that would have happened a long time ago - with RS play between it? That would also mean that the other teams would have had time to practice together by then - because the playoffs take place after the regular season, genius.

Beacuse teams don't try as hard in meaningless games?? Are you serious?

Meanwhile, all the teams playing in the bubble, who are even playing at a higher level than the Lakers, are somehow incredibly rusty, despite the fact they're literally playing right up until the playoffs for one month just like the lazy Lakers are. Did you even think this through before making this up?

All of the teams? Clearly you're the one making crap up that I never said.

Maybe they looked better than everyone else because...they were the eventual champions?

Here's the money quote. LOL. Maybe they were eventual champions who dominated the bubble playoffs in part because they were in incredible condition for such an old team, and maybe that happened because they benefitted from the time off and fewer injuries in the bubble. And of course there's this...

https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/sports/lakers-lebron-james-reportedly-holding-private-workouts-with-teammates-during-nba-suspension/2366867/
https://www.btimesonline.com/articles/132520/20200523/did-lebron-james-breach-lockdown-rules-lakers-superstar-reportedly-holding-private-workouts.htm
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2892808-lakers-rumors-lebron-james-held-private-workouts-with-teammates-amid-covid-19

I'm thinking the Clippers probably weren't invited but nice try though.


so is an asterisk because lakers were healthy?

should the lakers have won while injured for it to be legit?
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Re: LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0 

Post#294 » by colts18 » Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:14 pm

Are we going to pretend that one of the Lakers starters didn't even make it to the bubble?

btw, Rondo was injured during the bubble too.
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Re: LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0 

Post#295 » by Sark » Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:52 pm

Disney Bubble had tons of injuries. Giannis got hurt, Dame was playing injured, Westbrook and Harden were playing injured, Will Barton was out for the Nuggets, Bam Adebayo missed the finals as did Dragic, Kyrie and Durant didn't play at all, Spencer Dinwiddie was out for the Nets as well, Ben Simmons didn't play, Porzingis got hurt after playing very well which hurt Dallas, Curry and Klay were gone for the whole year, Bogdanovic was out for Utah.

It was the furthest thing from a full strength playoffs.
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Re: LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0 

Post#296 » by dcstanley » Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:21 am

Sark wrote:Disney Bubble had tons of injuries. Giannis got hurt, Dame was playing injured, Westbrook and Harden were playing injured, Will Barton was out for the Nuggets, Bam Adebayo missed the finals as did Dragic, Kyrie and Durant didn't play at all, Spencer Dinwiddie was out for the Nets as well, Ben Simmons didn't play, Porzingis got hurt after playing very well which hurt Dallas, Curry and Klay were gone for the whole year, Bogdanovic was out for Utah.

It was the furthest thing from a full strength playoffs.

How many of those players were even healthy during the regular season? Klay, Kyrie, Steph, Bogdanovic, and KD weren't playing in the playoffs whether it was in the bubble or not. Injuries to Giannis and Lillard occurred when their respective series were out of reach (The Bucks were down 3-0 when Giannis suffered an injury and the Blazers were down 3-1 when Lillard suffered an injury).. Harden had the best playoff series of his career in the second round so his "injury" (which I can't find a single report about on google) didn't impact his performance

Bam, Dragic, Simmons, Barton, and Westbrook (although Westbrook's 2020 playoff numbers were in line with the last five seasons of his career) were the only players to suffer significant injuries in the bubble.. Three out of five of those players weren't injured significantly enough to be ruled out of the playoffs. Compare that to both the 2019 and 2021 playoffs and the bubble looks a lot closer to a full strength playoffs.
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Re: LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0 

Post#297 » by prolific passer » Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:12 am

Those LA Bubble Poppers were pretty good in 2020.

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