2023-24 NBA Season Discussion

[CKRT]

Unsure if Colbinii is referring to Harden here (eg. Chris Paul, MDA, Westbrook, Durant, Kyrie, Doc, Morey, Embiid) - but I don’t think he’s been helping his case(s) of being in a bad situation at any of the stops since 2020-21 when the antics with leaving Houston first began.

If it’s true that Harden was lied to in a handshake agreement (which is believable given the paycut he took last year), then this will just be another situation where I don’t really blame him. Which is almost all of them tbh.

I expect there was a bit of a handshake deal, but that's into fool me twice territory. Harden's worked with Morey before, and now even after not getting the extension he wanted as the handshake deal got broken (presumably) he still opts back in instead of opting out and taking the money in Houston (not sure if there were any other options on that front).

The opt in was likely under the agreement he would be traded and to recoup some of the money he gave up last summer to give Philly a more competitive roster. For him to go public like this, I almost feel like he wanted to opt out but Morey told him they could work out a long term extension if he opted in.

Or the simplest answer is that Morey told him he would take care of him this summer and then Morey didn't uphold his end for reasons unknown. (Baseless speculation: after the new CBA details were out, Morey realized he couldn't give him the deal he promised)

[jalengreen]

Unsure if Colbinii is referring to Harden here (eg. Chris Paul, MDA, Westbrook, Durant, Kyrie, Doc, Morey, Embiid) - but I don’t think he’s been helping his case(s) of being in a bad situation at any of the stops since 2020-21 when the antics with leaving Houston first began.

If it’s true that Harden was lied to in a handshake agreement (which is believable given the paycut he took last year), then this will just be another situation where I don’t really blame him. Which is almost all of them tbh.

I expect there was a bit of a handshake deal, but that's into fool me twice territory. Harden's worked with Morey before, and now even after not getting the extension he wanted as the handshake deal got broken (presumably) he still opts back in instead of opting out and taking the money in Houston (not sure if there were any other options on that front).

I wouldn’t object to a claim of him being naive and making some poor decisions along the way. But when this drama seems to be catalyzed by Morey going against a handshake deal (supposedly… perhaps we learn more) and the Nets drama was catalyzed by Kyrie being Kyrie, I wouldn’t look back at Harden’s career and conclude that he was consistently the problem.

FWIW ESPN reported that Houston was more interested in acquiring FVV when Harden opted in.

[Colbinii]

Unsure if Colbinii is referring to Harden here (eg. Chris Paul, MDA, Westbrook, Durant, Kyrie, Doc, Morey, Embiid) - but I don’t think he’s been helping his case(s) of being in a bad situation at any of the stops since 2020-21 when the antics with leaving Houston first began.

If it’s true that Harden was lied to in a handshake agreement (which is believable given the paycut he took last year), then this will just be another situation where I don’t really blame him. Which is almost all of them tbh.

I expect there was a bit of a handshake deal, but that's into fool me twice territory. Harden's worked with Morey before, and now even after not getting the extension he wanted as the handshake deal got broken (presumably) he still opts back in instead of opting out and taking the money in Houston (not sure if there were any other options on that front).

My understanding is Harden wanted a longer-term deal [Houston only offered 2 years, as they did with FVV] and/or that Houston preferred FVV to Harden, especially once Ime Udoka arrived with his defensive mind-set.

Harden knew Houston wasn't either A) Offering a long-term deal and/or B) The money was going to FVV and not him.

I don't think Harden would have opted-in if he knew he could have gotten more from Houston. He knows this is his last large paycheck.

[eminence]

Oh, I don't think Harden is being a bad person on any level here, just making foolish decisions (with an assist from his agent).

He pushed for the Westbrook trade, he wanted to go to Brooklyn, he wanted to go to Philadelphia, he signed again in Philadelphia, and now he opted back in.

He's had great control over where he's played/who he's played with for the last 4-5 years. I just don't think he has any real idea what he wants and don't really expect him to find it with wherever he winds up next.

[MyUniBroDavis]

“Daryl morey is a liar and I will never be a part of an organization he’s a part of” is actually a crazy lol

Bro set the bridge ablaze

His trade bag is immaculate, leaves in so many different ways only Kyrie compares

[parsnips33]

“Daryl morey is a liar and I will never be a part of an organization he’s a part of” is actually a crazy lol

Bro set the bridge ablaze

"I repeat" is the funniest part

[MyUniBroDavis]

“Daryl morey is a liar and I will never be a part of an organization he’s a part of” is actually a crazy lol

Bro set the bridge ablaze

"I repeat" is the funniest part

I’ve grown to appreciate these guys for making the off-season so entertaining other than 2016 KD

[MartinToVaught]

I wouldn’t object to a claim of him being naive and making some poor decisions along the way. But when this drama seems to be catalyzed by Morey going against a handshake deal (supposedly… perhaps we learn more) and the Nets drama was catalyzed by Kyrie being Kyrie, I wouldn’t look back at Harden’s career and conclude that he was consistently the problem.

This is an overly charitable view of Harden's actions in my opinion. Harden screwed Morey over first with how he went about forcing his way out of Houston. As for the Nets, while Kyrie was absolutely a factor, I also don't think it's a coincidence that Harden quit on them the moment adversity struck and he was being asked to step up and lead the team himself for a while. Kyrie's extreme narcissism was also well-known before Harden went to the Nets and he still signed up to play with him anyway.

Harden has been a living caricature of "player empowerment" for years now, so it's hard to make a case that he's a sympathetic figure here. He also doesn't have anywhere near the value he thinks he does and he can only blame himself for lacking self-awareness.

[Colbinii]

I wouldn’t object to a claim of him being naive and making some poor decisions along the way. But when this drama seems to be catalyzed by Morey going against a handshake deal (supposedly… perhaps we learn more) and the Nets drama was catalyzed by Kyrie being Kyrie, I wouldn’t look back at Harden’s career and conclude that he was consistently the problem.

This is an overly charitable view of Harden's actions in my opinion. Harden screwed Morey over first with how he went about forcing his way out of Houston. As for the Nets, while Kyrie was absolutely a factor, I also don't think it's a coincidence that Harden quit on them the moment adversity struck and he was being asked to step up and lead the team himself for a while. Kyrie's extreme narcissism was also well-known before Harden went to the Nets and he still signed up to play with him anyway.

Harden has been a living caricature of "player empowerment" for years now, so it's hard to make a case that he's a sympathetic figure here. He also doesn't have anywhere near the value he thinks he does and he can only blame himself for lacking self-awareness.

Morey left the Rockets before Harden was traded.

I also don't see how that is screwing over Morey. He was immediately hired by the 76ers.

[jalengreen]

I wouldn’t object to a claim of him being naive and making some poor decisions along the way. But when this drama seems to be catalyzed by Morey going against a handshake deal (supposedly… perhaps we learn more) and the Nets drama was catalyzed by Kyrie being Kyrie, I wouldn’t look back at Harden’s career and conclude that he was consistently the problem.

This is an overly charitable view of Harden's actions in my opinion. Harden screwed Morey over first with how he went about forcing his way out of Houston.

Huh? Harden asked for a trade after Morey left. To be specific, the Rockets had a different head coach, general manager, owner, and obviously roster when Harden requested a trade (versus when he signed his contract).

As for the Nets, while Kyrie was absolutely a factor, I also don't think it's a coincidence that Harden quit on them the moment adversity struck and he was being asked to step up and lead the team himself for a while.

The moment adversity struck? Was Kyrie and Harden both getting hurt in the playoffs against the Bucks not adversity? Was Harden's response to that not to recklessly play through injury for the sake of his team? Did he not end up playing 45 games for the Nets without Kyrie and 37 games without KD?

[MartinToVaught]

I wouldn’t object to a claim of him being naive and making some poor decisions along the way. But when this drama seems to be catalyzed by Morey going against a handshake deal (supposedly… perhaps we learn more) and the Nets drama was catalyzed by Kyrie being Kyrie, I wouldn’t look back at Harden’s career and conclude that he was consistently the problem.

This is an overly charitable view of Harden's actions in my opinion. Harden screwed Morey over first with how he went about forcing his way out of Houston. As for the Nets, while Kyrie was absolutely a factor, I also don't think it's a coincidence that Harden quit on them the moment adversity struck and he was being asked to step up and lead the team himself for a while. Kyrie's extreme narcissism was also well-known before Harden went to the Nets and he still signed up to play with him anyway.

Harden has been a living caricature of "player empowerment" for years now, so it's hard to make a case that he's a sympathetic figure here. He also doesn't have anywhere near the value he thinks he does and he can only blame himself for lacking self-awareness.

Morey left the Rockets before Harden was traded.

I also don't see how that is screwing over Morey. He was immediately hired by the 76ers.

The reason Morey left the Rockets is because he knew Harden was going to demand out, because they were depleted of all their assets from making all the moves Harden wanted them to make.

Several sources within the Houston organization firmly believe Morey made a preemptive decision, departing in large part because he anticipated Harden would want out, beginning a rebuilding period for the Rockets. According to sources, Morey had expressed concern inside the bubble about not being able to "keep James happy," because of a lack of picks to use as trade fodder to make offseason roster upgrades.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30992343/the-final-months-james-harden-houston-rockets-public-breakup

So yes, while Stone got screwed over too, Harden also implicitly dumped on Morey in the process of forcing his way out of Houston.

[khaltheball]

yeah i have to agree with the less charitable take on Harden now. the handshake stuff is nothing butt made up gibberish in my opinion. Harden Houston rumours were started by Harden himself in order to create leverage and get paidm except it didnt worj and Harden isnt worth what he thinks he should be. Hes going to a worse situation just because he believes balmer will not think twice to overpay him. Even the Lakers would work better for him if his goal is winning. I used to feel more that Harden got a bad rao unfairly but theres too much horse **** involved with him to give him a pass. This move in particular after his pitiful playoff showing is the nail in the coffin, he might be mad morey isnt overpyaing him or trading him but the handhake deal stuff is just conjecture; Harden houston rumours would not exist if that was the case. Harden wanted credit for taking the paycut despite doing so to get his freind paid (pj overpaid ass) so he had more 'help'.

[CKRT]

Lol only Harden could took a $15m paycut then lead the league in assists, shoot close to his career best from 3, and average 21/10.7/6 on 60TS% just for people to act like it's insane that he deserves a max contract or that he's the bad guy for Morey reneging on their handshake deal. I find it really hard to not side with Harden here, but I swear anytime he's the topic of conversation brain's turn off.

[Doctor MJ]

I imagine all of those guys are a bit difficult to work with - Daryl, Doc, Joel, Ben/Jimmy/Harden. I'm not too surprised they couldn't paper over their issues without championship level success.

Unsure if Colbinii is referring to Harden here (eg. Chris Paul, MDA, Westbrook, Durant, Kyrie, Doc, Morey, Embiid) - but I don’t think he’s been helping his case(s) of being in a bad situation at any of the stops since 2020-21 when the antics with leaving Houston first began.

If it’s true that Harden was lied to in a handshake agreement (which is believable given the paycut he took last year), then this will just be another situation where I don’t really blame him. Which is almost all of them tbh.

Key thing here:

In between when this agreement occurred and now, a season of basketball was played.

There's just no way that Morey said anything like "I don't care if you're stop being good at basketball next year, I'll give you the max."

I'm sure Harden feels like he did everything that could be expected of him...but clearly Morey was hoping that Embiid-Harden would be an actual contender rather than a team that remained 2nd round fodder. And now consider Morey explaining to ownership a long mega-deal for a past-prime Harden who will only get worse, and at present still isn't enough to help the team improve from the Ben Simmons years.

[Texas Chuck]

I find it really hard to not side with Harden here, but I swear anytime he's the topic of conversation brain's turn off.

sadly even on the PC Board(obviously on the GB) discussion is rarely based on the actual case at hand but simply who is involved. Curry or Joker? Everything is good no matter what they do. Harden or Lebron? It's all terrible no matter what they do.

Harden isn't taking that paycut and opting in without some kind of understanding. And he's not lighting Morey up publicly without them having had some kind of understanding.

I mean I get Morey has a greater responsibility to the Sixers than he does Harden. If he wants to play hard business, he absolutely can. But Harden can then let the world know Morey went back on their agreement, no matter how informal.

But people don't like how Harden plays so they make the story he is a horrible guy. It really sucks, but that's how it works. Even here.

[Peregrine01]

Harden is a major diva and we all know that. But Morey has quietly developed a reputation for treating his players like assets and having a pretty clear "ends justifies the means" type of approach. His gm'ing history is pretty formulaic and he seems to have little regard for the intangible things like team chemistry, connectivity and interpersonal relationships, etc. etc.

[Doctor MJ]

I find it really hard to not side with Harden here, but I swear anytime he's the topic of conversation brain's turn off.

sadly even on the PC Board(obviously on the GB) discussion is rarely based on the actual case at hand but simply who is involved. Curry or Joker? Everything is good no matter what they do. Harden or Lebron? It's all terrible no matter what they do.

Harden isn't taking that paycut and opting in without some kind of understanding. And he's not lighting Morey up publicly without them having had some kind of understanding.

I mean I get Morey has a greater responsibility to the Sixers than he does Harden. If he wants to play hard business, he absolutely can. But Harden can then let the world know Morey went back on their agreement, no matter how informal.

But people don't like how Harden plays so they make the story he is a horrible guy. It really sucks, but that's how it works. Even here.

To be clear here:

There's plenty of blame to go around.

I think Morey screwed up big time. I don't think he literally promised what Harden thinks he promised...but Morey surely didn't specify ahead of time what precise standard Harden needed to reach in order to get the contract offer he wanted. He gave Harden the impression that he'd give the contract Harden wanted, knowing full well that that would depend on how the year actually went. Morey thus can't be surprised that Harden was upset by how negotiations went, nor can he be surprised that when negotiations went poorly, Harden reacted in this way given that he's seen how Harden handles these situations before.

This then makes us ask the question of how exactly the 76ers are better off now compared to when Morey arrived. Yes, the Simmons situation got resolved for a better player in Harden, but it didn't the team over the hump, their ability to trade what they have is crippled, and Embiid's patience has to be wearing thin.

And all this brings to mind a key thing that was always pretty obvious:

If you're building around a guy born in 1994, trading an all-star born in 1996 for one born in 1989, is living very dangerously. We know Embiid was hoping for Bradley Beal - born in 1993 - and that move frankly would have made a lot more sense if you were hoping to keep Embiid happy in the long term. Had Harden worked out for an immediate chip is would all be good of course, but the 76ers are now in a situation where they may have to go right back into re-building soon having never truly emerged as a contender in the entirety of the decade-plus long Process.

So yeah, Morey really screwed up, and whatever Harden's behavior is now, that's still on Morey.

[MartinToVaught]

sadly even on the PC Board(obviously on the GB) discussion is rarely based on the actual case at hand but simply who is involved. Curry or Joker? Everything is good no matter what they do. Harden or Lebron? It's all terrible no matter what they do.

You're not necessarily wrong, but Curry, Jokic and LeBron aren't making an ass out of themselves like this. All the outrage LeBron got for The Decision is funny to look back on now that we've got Harden demanding a trade every five minutes.

[parsnips33]

For Daryl Morey to be as 'famous' as he is as a GM without winning anything is kinda concerning. I don't think you want your GM being a 'household name' to basketball fans unless they've done something to earn Mythical status

Is Morey really the smartest GM? Or just the one that's best at self-promotion? Or just the one that best embodied the league-wide narratives about analytics in the last decade?

[HeartBreakKid]

For Daryl Morey to be as 'famous' as he is as a GM without winning anything is kinda concerning. I don't think you want your GM being a 'household name' to basketball fans unless they've done something to earn Mythical status

Is Morey really the smartest GM? Or just the one that's best at self-promotion? Or just the one that best embodied the league-wide narratives about analytics in the last decade?

Probably all of the above but I'm not sure about smartest but I think he is a good GM. Hasn't gone his way to get a ring but he's found ways to get good players.