Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate?

Blame Rasho · Post #301 » by **Blame Rasho** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:11 am

Bgil wrote:Anyone care to answer why the Hornets are a borderline playoff team and the Jazz are a borderline contender?

Coaching...

Bgil · Post #302 » by **Bgil** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:20 am

Not that Paul would work in Sloan's 1-4 Flex but I can accept that.

erudite23 · Post #303 » by **erudite23** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:50 am

dogrufus wrote:
bigfan26 wrote:I'm gonna rudely interrupt your disccusion gentlemen, by saying this statistically paul is shown to be better than Dwill.

However, i wouldn't use that purely to say paul is better.

IMHO, i'd rather dwill have the ball in crunch time than paul.

Cal me crazy, but I'd rather have the ball in the hands of the PG with the better 3 point shooting, FT shooting, overall shooting efficiency, and assist/TO ratio at crunch time.

So you'd rather prime Ray Allen have the ball in such situations than prime Kobe? Hmmmmm?

AboveTheRim726 · Post #304 » by **AboveTheRim726** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:59 am

The book has been shut this year.

dogrufus · Post #305 » by **dogrufus** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:41 pm

erudite23 wrote:
dogrufus wrote:
bigfan26 wrote:I'm gonna rudely interrupt your disccusion gentlemen, by saying this statistically paul is shown to be better than Dwill.

However, i wouldn't use that purely to say paul is better.

IMHO, i'd rather dwill have the ball in crunch time than paul.

Cal me crazy, but I'd rather have the ball in the hands of the PG with the better 3 point shooting, FT shooting, overall shooting efficiency, and assist/TO ratio at crunch time.

So you'd rather prime Ray Allen have the ball in such situations than prime Kobe? Hmmmmm?

Probably. Kobe's clutch factor has been incredibly overrated over the years. He's not as good in the clutch as Nash, Dirk, or Melo.

colts18 · Post #306 » by **colts18** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:10 am

100-71. Definitely shut down.

SDChargers#1 · Post #307 » by **SDChargers#1** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:11 am

dogrufus wrote:
Probably. Kobe's clutch factor has been incredibly overrated over the years. He's not as good in the clutch as Nash, Dirk, or Melo.

That is so ridiculous. There is a reason Kobe is universally agreed upon (at least in NBA circles) as the guy that you would want taking a last second shot.

Remember clutch isn't only about hitting a last second shot (though Kobe does that extremely well), it is about pulling your team out of tough situations and Kobe does that better than anyone in the league right now.

If the Lakers are struggling and the other team is on a run, Kobe will usually make sure to either get a basket or get to the line. Obviously not always (no team never loses), but Kobe does that better than any other player in the NBA.

To the topic at hand, I just have to take Deron.

He is putting up great numbers this year and is maybe the most consistent player in the NBA. Also he outplays Paul EVERY time they play one another. Is the gap huge between the two? Absolutely not, I have them at the #1 and #2 ranked PGs in the NBA right now. But this year I just don't see how you can have Paul over Williams. We all know Paul's 3P % is going to drop. Based on the law of averages it is bound to happen, his shooting percentages (not FG) are major outliers from his usual output.

With that said they are both fantastic players and are making a run at the all time top PG list. They just have to keep it up.

Rapcity_11 · Post #308 » by **Rapcity_11** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:15 am

SDChargers#1 wrote:
dogrufus wrote:
Probably. Kobe's clutch factor has been incredibly overrated over the years. He's not as good in the clutch as Nash, Dirk, or Melo.

That is so ridiculous. There is a reason Kobe is universally agreed upon (at least in NBA circles) as the guy that you would want taking a last second shot.

Remember clutch isn't only about hitting a last second shot (though Kobe does that extremely well), it is about pulling your team out of tough situations and Kobe does that better than anyone in the league right now.

If the Lakers are struggling and the other team is on a run, Kobe will usually make sure to either get a basket or get to the line. Obviously not always (no team never loses), but Kobe does that better than any other player in the NBA.

To the topic at hand, I just have to take Deron.

He is putting up great numbers this year and is maybe the most consistent player in the NBA. Also he outplays Paul EVERY time they play one another. Is the gap huge between the two? Absolutely not, I have them at the #1 and #2 ranked PGs in the NBA right now. But this year I just don't see how you can have Paul over Williams. We all know Paul's 3P % is going to drop. Based on the law of averages it is bound to happen, his shooting percentages (not FG) are major outliers from his usual output.

With that said they are both fantastic players and are making a run at the all time top PG list. They just have to keep it up.

Wrong day to post this...

SDChargers#1 · Post #309 » by **SDChargers#1** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:20 am

That's fair, I didn't see the game when I made the post. It seems that Paul definitely outplayed Williams tday. But I still stand by my post, but will revise, Williams outplays Paul ALMOST every time they play one another.

dogrufus · Post #310 » by **dogrufus** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:01 am

SDChargers#1 wrote:That is so ridiculous. There is a reason Kobe is universally agreed upon (at least in NBA circles) as the guy that you would want taking a last second shot.

Remember clutch isn't only about hitting a last second shot (though Kobe does that extremely well), it is about pulling your team out of tough situations and Kobe does that better than anyone in the league right now.

If the Lakers are struggling and the other team is on a run, Kobe will usually make sure to either get a basket or get to the line. Obviously not always (no team never loses), but Kobe does that better than any other player in the NBA.

People think that because of cognitive bias. Kobe has had an incredibly lucky and privileged career, having been on insanely talented teams for most of it (and not winning crap when he wasn't). He's made a lot of big plays because he's been in situations where he's had opportunities because of how great his teams have been. People remember the times he's come through and not the many times he's failed (check his NBA finals stats). If you look at the numbers that actually track these things rather than the opinions of biased casual fans and know-nothing media figures, you'll see that Kobe is far from the most effective in clutch situations. Melo, Dirk, Manu, LeBron, Nash, and others have been better.

Bgil · Post #311 » by **Bgil** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:15 am

Funny thing is that Nash, Dirk, and Lebron have played on some teams that were far more loaded than Kobe's current Lakers yet none of them has any rings. Hell, Nash and Dirk played together and they never won ****.

Andrewchos · Post #312 » by **Andrewchos** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:44 am

Bgil wrote:Lebron has played on some teams that were far more loaded than Kobe's current Lakers

dogrufus · Post #313 » by **dogrufus** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:02 pm

Bgil wrote:Funny thing is that Nash, Dirk, and Lebron have played on some teams that were far more loaded than Kobe's current Lakers yet none of them has any rings. Hell, Nash and Dirk played together and they never won ****.

Yeah, because they all played with the greatest center of the last 25 years in his prime. And their GMs stole the best big in the Western conference for pretty much nothing because the opposing GM used to play for their team..

And yeah, those Cavs sure were loaded. Look how much they're winning now with the exact same team minus LeBron.

Kobe fans live in an alternate universe.

Blame Rasho · Post #314 » by **Blame Rasho** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:00 pm

Bgil wrote:Funny thing is that Nash, Dirk, and Lebron have played on some teams that were far more loaded than Kobe's current Lakers yet none of them has any rings. Hell, Nash and Dirk played together and they never won ****.

You seriously don't believe that do you?

I can understand hyperbole at times... but this is just silly in my opinion...

colts18 · Post #315 » by **colts18** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:45 pm

Did someone really say that the Cavs are similar to the Lakers minus Kobe? Are you watching this year's Cavs team that is the worst team in the league?

Loki24 · Post #316 » by **Loki24** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:29 am

dogrufus wrote:
Bgil wrote:Funny thing is that Nash, Dirk, and Lebron have played on some teams that were far more loaded than Kobe's current Lakers yet none of them has any rings. Hell, Nash and Dirk played together and they never won ****.

Yeah, because they all played with the greatest center of the last 25 years in his prime. And their GMs stole the best big in the Western conference for pretty much nothing because the opposing GM used to play for their team..

And yeah, those Cavs sure were loaded. Look how much they're winning now with the exact same team minus LeBron.

lol so now Pau was the best big? lol @ the ridiculous revisionist history. The guy was considered nothing more than a borderline All-Star player. Not even a top 5 PF. :lol:

Rapcity_11 · Post #317 » by **Rapcity_11** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:33 am

Loki24 wrote:
dogrufus wrote:
Bgil wrote:Funny thing is that Nash, Dirk, and Lebron have played on some teams that were far more loaded than Kobe's current Lakers yet none of them has any rings. Hell, Nash and Dirk played together and they never won ****.

Yeah, because they all played with the greatest center of the last 25 years in his prime. And their GMs stole the best big in the Western conference for pretty much nothing because the opposing GM used to play for their team..

And yeah, those Cavs sure were loaded. Look how much they're winning now with the exact same team minus LeBron.

lol so now Pau was the best big? lol @ the ridiculous revisionist history. The guy was considered nothing more than a borderline All-Star player. Not even a top 5 PF.

The point is how he played after getting traded, not before. :lol:

Loki24 · Post #318 » by **Loki24** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:44 am

He's not the best big now, and he certainly wasn't in 08, 09, and 2010 either. Not even close.

lol @ these retards and their revisionist history. :lol:

Rapcity_11 · Post #319 » by **Rapcity_11** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:47 am

Loki24 wrote:He's not the best big now, and he certainly wasn't in 08, 09, and 2010 either. Not even close.

lol @ these retards and their revisionist history.

The difference between Gasol and the other elite bigs in the west has been minimal for the past 3 years. Not even close? LOL man, it's very close. Retards? How old are you, like 14?

Loki24 · Post #320 » by **Loki24** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:50 am

Rapcity_11 wrote:
Loki24 wrote:He's not the best big now, and he certainly wasn't in 08, 09, and 2010 either. Not even close.

lol @ these retards and their revisionist history.

The difference between Gasol and the other elite bigs in the west has been minimal for the past 3 years. Not even close? LOL man, it's very close. Retards? How old are you, like 14?

No, it's not close.

Dude was nothing more than a borderline All-Star in MEM and now he's the best big?

LMAO

How old are you, like 12? :lol:

Who is better?