RealGM Top 100 List #12

[DQuinn1575]

The issue I have when people pace adjust the 60s is they only do it one
way.

They do not adjust for shooting %, which would go up as the game is
slowed down.

They also do not adjust for the fact that scorers were more stingy giving
out assists

No, because that advantage applies to every player from that era. What you need to look at is how a player separates himself from his peers. It's the same way to get around the annoying arguments about handchecking or whatever.

I've tried to adjust for assists before by looking at the league average assists per field goal rate. There are only small changes.

By scaling everything to the same year it shows how everyone separated themselves from their peers.




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[Dipper 13]

I haven't watched whole series (1971 finals)

As far as I know the only existing footage from the series is the 2nd half of Game 4.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTs918TZ-qo[/youtube]

[Jim Naismith]

It's weird to argue for someone's value by saying his own team finished with a losing record.

You're missing the second half of the sentence, concerning the playoffs.

Moses dragged a weak team to the NBA finals, beating the defending champs in the process.

This is a strong indicator of Moses' impact.

And if he'd have played in the west this year he'd be mocked for not being a real star.

Your hypothetical about 2013 fan reactions isn't germane to Moses' actual prima facie impact.

After all, the conventional wisdom of the casual fan did not deter you from voting Kevin Garnett in at #11: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1337636&start=480

Moses Malone's impact was enormous and arguably more obvious than Garnett's:

Led sub-.500 team (1981 Rockets) to NBA finals

eliminated Kareem-Magic Lakers (reigning champs)

Moses-less Houston, after trading him away in 1982, won 32 fewer games

Led 1983 Sixers to championship:

Fo-Fo-Fo: Lost only one game during playoffs

Swept Kareem-Magic Lakers (reigning champs who had beaten 1982 Sixers 4-2)

[penbeast0]

Kobe 7 (Ardee, Basketballefan, batmana, GC Pantalones, JordanBulls, ShaqAttack3234, lukekarts, john248)
Oscar 7 ( DannyNoonan1221, DQuinn1575, Heartbreakkid, lorak, Narigo, Owly, Quotatious)

K. Malone 5 (baller2014, FJS, magicmerl, therealbig3, trex_8063)
West 2 (penbeast, RayBan-Sematra)
Dr J 2 ( Clyde Frazier, Warspite)
Drob 1 ( shutupandjam)

[Jim Naismith]

Moses Malone joined "a team that had been to the finals multiple times before him with a lot of the same people."

Result: Championship


Karl Malone joined "a team that had been to the finals multiple times before him with a lot of the same people."

Result: No championship

…Moses was 27 and Karl was 40. Why are you attempting to make a 1:1 comparison?

Karl was injured too which had some influence. Not sure what JimN is trying to prove here.

This was in response to acrossthecourt's attempt to downplay Moses' impact noting he joined "a team that had been to the finals multiple times before him with a lot of the same people."

It shows that winning a ring with a superteam is not a given. Thus Moses' achievement with the Sixers is a legitimate indicator of his decisive impact.

[The Infamous1]

And yet Kobe's vaunted 2001 playoffs, much of it against weak opposition and with Shaq there to take the defensive heat off, still looks worse than Karl Malone's 1992 playoffs.

The Lakers didn't face a single weak team that year, so I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "weak opposition". All 4 teams faced were top 10 defensively (#9, #7, #1, #5), and 3 of them were top 10 offensively (#7, #9, #6). In terms of SRS their opponents were #1, #2, #5, and #7. That's the exact opposite of weak opposition, on either end of the floor. Let's not forget that Kobe played spectacular defense in the playoffs as well.

If you're talking about his match-up defensively, then I'd remind you that Christie was an outstanding wing defender. He was quick and long which is exactly the type of defender you want on Kobe. The Blazers weren't too shabby with (physical) Pippen matching up on Kobe either. There isn't a significant difference between Anderson and Daniels, at least defensively, and given what Kobe did to the Spurs in the RS it would have hardly mattered who they had on him. The Sixers had solid perimeter defense, although they did have some injury issues as well. All 4 teams had solid FC defense.

I also find it odd that you are taking credit away from Kobe for having Shaq draw away defenders while not also knocking Malone for having one of the best play-makers in history setting him up. You're also ignoring Kobe's ability to create shots for others and run the offense, so outside of pure scoring he does have other advantages.

It's very weird. On one hand in his eyes

The Years kobe played in the PS with shaq(00-04) are tainted because he wasn't the sole focus of opposing defenses but when you bring up 06-10 where he was(a 5 year sample of almost 80 PS games) that's "misleading"

Why because his efficiency(57%TS) was too good in comparison to Karl?

[Jim Naismith]

It shows that winning a ring with a superteam is not a given. Thus Moses' achievement with the Sixers is a legitimate indicator of impact.

Just ask 2011 LeBron (age 26).

You're right, winning with a "super team" isn't a given, but this is a horrible example because as mentioned, Moses was 28 and at his peak while Karl was 40 and essentially had a career-ending injury. And despite that being Karl's last season, they got to the finals and were a much better team with him. They may have had a legitimate chance against Detroit had Karl been healthy.

I have Moses over Karl, but that's not a good example at all.

I used the example because acrossthecourt used the phrase a team that had been to the finals multiple times before him with a lot of the same people as a way to downplay Moses' accomplishment.

Karl Malone was the only other remaining candidate that I could think of who joined such a team. The 2004 Lakers' failure highlights the challenges of winning with a superteam. Thus Moses' achievement in 1983 was legitimately impressive.

I also indicated above that another comparison is 2011 LeBron James, another star who failed to win a championship the year he joined a superteam.

All this goes to show Moses' immediate impact.

[DQuinn1575]

Kobe 7 (Ardee, Basketballefan, batmana, GC Pantalones, JordanBulls, ShaqAttack3234, lukekarts, john248)
Oscar 7 ( DannyNoonan1221, DQuinn1575, Heartbreakkid, lorak, Narigo, Owly, Quotatious)

K. Malone 5 (baller2014, FJS, magicmerl, therealbig3, trex_8063)
West 2 (penbeast, RayBan-Sematra)
Dr J 2 ( Clyde Frazier, Warspite)
Drob 1 ( shutupandjam)

My eyes are old but aren't there 8 names by Kobe?


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[Reservoirdawgs]

My eyes are old but aren't there 8 names by Kobe?

Good catch, there are eight names.

[Baller2014]

Yeh, Kobe has 8. It's very close, with about 10-12 hours to go before a run off a lot of people have not voted yet. I count about 41+ total voters who have been participating, but only 25 have voted so far. Clearly nobody is going to get a majority until a run off.

[lorak]

Kobe 7 (Ardee, Basketballefan, batmana, GC Pantalones, JordanBulls, ShaqAttack3234, lukekarts, john248)
Oscar 7 ( DannyNoonan1221, DQuinn1575, Heartbreakkid, lorak, Narigo, Owly, Quotatious)

K. Malone 5 (baller2014, FJS, magicmerl, therealbig3, trex_8063)
West 2 (penbeast, RayBan-Sematra)
Dr J 2 ( Clyde Frazier, Warspite)
Drob 1 ( shutupandjam)

My eyes are old but aren't there 8 names by Kobe?

Yes, 8 names, but I still don't know when lukearts voted for Kobe. His posts in this thread: #297, #123, #116, #104 and #103.

So he favors Dirk, but between KB and Malone he clearly values Kobe more, but hasn't voted for him yet.

[Moonbeam]

I've been ridiculously busy these past few days (preparing to teach a course with 1200 students will do that), but for now, I'll cast a vote for Jerry West. I'm on my IPhone so can't easily copy my reasons from the last thread, but will try to do at least that tomorrow. I was happy to see Dr. J get some votes in the first few pages - I have him next but will have to read through to solidify my opinion as there are lots of worthy candidates (Oscar, Kobe, Karl, Dirk, Robinson) that merit a close look, too.

[lukekarts]

Kobe 7 (Ardee, Basketballefan, batmana, GC Pantalones, JordanBulls, ShaqAttack3234, lukekarts, john248)
Oscar 7 ( DannyNoonan1221, DQuinn1575, Heartbreakkid, lorak, Narigo, Owly, Quotatious)

K. Malone 5 (baller2014, FJS, magicmerl, therealbig3, trex_8063)
West 2 (penbeast, RayBan-Sematra)
Dr J 2 ( Clyde Frazier, Warspite)
Drob 1 ( shutupandjam)

My eyes are old but aren't there 8 names by Kobe?

Yes, 8 names, but I still don't know when lukearts voted for Kobe. His posts in this thread: #297, #123, #116, #104 and #103.

So he favors Dirk, but between KB and Malone he clearly values Kobe more, but hasn't voted for him yet.

I had voted, but then was advised I was still not eligible for voting, so I edited my post. If my vote does indeed count at this stage, then it is for Kobe Bryant. Oscar is next on my list, followed by Dirk.

[colts18]

2003- I don't use +/- and said why i believe they're flawed so i'm not going to buy any arguments based on that. Kobe was clearly better imo, scored much more on comparable efficiency, better passer, and far better defender, and had a higher PER. Who cares that Shaq was still the best player on that squad? He would've been if Dirk was there instead of Kobe. Kobe>Dirk that year quite clearly, deal with it.

Why were the Mavs significantly better than the Lakers in 2003? 8 SRS to 3 SRS? Why did Kobe go 5-10 without Shaq? If he was the #2 player in the league, there is no reason for him to go 5-10.

[DHodgkins]

My Vote is still for Kobe Bryant

- 4th All time leading scorer
- 2nd highest PPG in single season in modern era
- One month stretch in 2006 in which he averaged 43/6/4
- 2001 playoffs: 29/7/6 only lost one game
- 2009 Conference Final & Finals: 33.3/5.7/6.5

[SactoKingsFan]

My vote goes to Oscar Robertson.

Led historically great offenses in CIN (1962: 98.4 eORtg, 1.84 z-score) and MIL (1971: 108.2 eORtg, 2.72 z-score).

Steve Nash and Magic are the only other PG's that were at the center of more historically great offenses. I have Magic ranked higher due to his GOAT passing, elite rebounding, size and BB IQ. Even though Nash orchestrated several historically great offenses, his defensive deficiencies and potential portability issues make it difficult to rank him anywhere near Oscar.

I think Oscar’s skillset is often underrated and is comparable to Magic’s and probably the best of all the remaining players. When you combine his 6’5” frame and high BB IQ with a diverse skillset (impressive passing/playmaking and rebounding, elite shooting and mid-range game, all-time PnR play) you get a dominant player within any era.

In addition to his era dominance and overall skillset, Oscar's role in helping catapult the Bucks from a contender to an historically dominant team is enough to convince me that he’s one of the 12 greatest players of all-time.

Vote: Oscar Robertson

[MacGill]

I'll have to submit my vote a little later tonight. Right now, this is between Kobe and Oscar for me personally. I appreciate the posters bringing to life Oscar's defense and when I have more of an opportunity to review the posts and footage I will submit my vote.

[colts18]

I would love to see this list of multiple titles that Kobe allegedly cost his titles due to his issues. Point to me the 2-4 titles that Kobe lost his team?

The only one you can blame on Kobe is the 2004 finals because of his aversion to passing in that series. Other than that, I don't see a title that Kobe clearly cost his team. He might have cost his team in 98 because of his terrible play but it had nothing to do with his negative intangibles.

[Reservoirdawgs]

He might have cost his team in 98 because of his terrible play but it had nothing to do with his negative intangibles.

It's hard to blame a 19-year old for costing a team a title.

I think it's fair to bring up 2004 as Kobe's poor attitude negatively affecting the series instead of just poor play. Obviously his poor attitude is not the only reason that the Lakers lost, and I believe that the Pistons were going to win regardless. But even his own teammates and coaches admitted afterwards that the constant drama throughout the season and Kobe feeling like he had something to prove got to them. However, I'm not going to let that one Finals define Kobe, and the statement that other Finals were lost because of Kobe's attitude is simply false.

[semi-sentient]

Why were the Mavs significantly better than the Lakers in 2003? 8 SRS to 3 SRS?

They had better all around talent and depth, and they weren't struggling with chemistry issues the way the Lakers were. I think the Shaq/Kobe feud took on new heights in the off-season due to Shaq's "toe" drama, or at least that's the impression I had at the time. I know that Kobe was furious that he delayed his surgery and was so out of shape after his return, and that is a large part of the reason it took the Lakers so long to get going even after Shaq returned to the lineup.

Kobe also had knee surgery over the summer, so I don't think he was at his best to start the season despite putting up 29.4 pts (.498 ts%), 8.8 reb, 6.2 ast, and 3.4 tov.

Once things started normalizing for the Lakers, they went on an impressive run to close out the season, and that run was sparked by Kobe's 40-point game streak (13 games? can't remember the exact number).

Why did Kobe go 5-10 without Shaq? If he was the #2 player in the league, there is no reason for him to go 5-10.

I'd have to disagree there. The Lakers started off 3-9 in the absence of Shaq, not to mention Fox missed 6 of those games as well. The Lakers had no FC depth whatsoever, so Shaq's absence is a huge deal because the Lakers weren't equipped to fill the void.

Another part of that is the scheduling. The Lakers played a lot of tough teams, with 7 of 12 games being on the road. That, coupled with the lineups being atrocious, is what led to the poor start.

I don't think you can expect much better results given their competition and the fact that the Lakers next best player was Derek Fisher...

Also, for the record, I don't think he was the 2nd best player that season. I feel that Duncan and Garnett were both better/more consistent. I'd take Kobe at #3 though given his dominant play once he got things going and became more of a scorer, although McGrady certainly has an argument there as well.

1st Half

27.6 pts (.534 ts%), 7.6 reb, 7.1 ast, 3.8 tov

2nd Half

32.4 pts (.564 ts%), 6.1 reb, 4.6 ast, 3.2 tov