All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread

[Dr Spaceman]

A suggestion. But I think it would be good if everyone gave their personal POY criteria before submitting a ballot. I think a lot of the debate will boil down to differences in approach rather than differences in opinions on players, so perhaps outlining criteria beforehand will clear up philosophical divides so we can focus the discussion on the players instead.

Just a thought.

Disappointed that we haven't seen many responses to this, because I think it's important. Well, pot meet kettle, so here's mine:

[In order of importance]
1. Impact on scoring margin (RAPM, ON/OFF, etc.)
2. Subjective assessment of player skill set (What does the player do exceptionally well, and how has that, both historically and currently, allowed him and others to impact the game? On the flip side, can this player be stopped form doing his thing? Does he have exploitable weaknesses that can be taken advantage of in playoff matchups?)
3. Subjective assessment of scalability/portability (what does the player do well, how likely is it to translate to higher levels, stuff like that)

I get a picture of the player with the above, and then lead to:
4. "Longevity" for lack of a better term, basically guys who have huge impact over a whole season are weighted higher than this who are inconsistent, injured etc. Also factor in any negative personal attributes that might hamper his ability to make a positive impact.

[bondom34]

I have a tough time defining exact criteria as mine are not as metric based as some others. Ultimately, looking at quality of play and how much an individual helped his team over the entirety of the year over a replacement is my general criteria. I'd ask myself how would a team have done if said player was out and the team was given an average player at his spot. Regular season is still very important to me as well. I'll use RAPM and RPM to a slight extent, but generally more to separate out general trends, not absolutes. As well, I've explained my hesitance with npi so I lean a not more on RPM as its what we have and is a better evaluator to me.

FYI my top 5 is in tiers:
Curry
Paul
Harden


Westbrook
Lebron


Then AD, then Kawhi, Griffin, and maybe Cousins. BG can move up as can Lebron, and the five may switch order. The only one who can drop out is Westbrook if BG keeps it up and the Clips make a deep run, but his RS wasn't nearly as good so its close.

[PaulieWal]

I have a tough time defining exact criteria as mine are not as metric based as some others. Ultimately, looking at quality of play and how much an individual helped his team over the entirety of the year over a replacement is my general criteria. I'd ask myself how would a team have done if said player was out and the team was given an average player at his spot. Regular season is still very important to me as well. I'll use RAPM and RPM to a slight extent, but generally more to separate out general trends, not absolutes. As well, I've explained my hesitance with npi so I lean a not more on RPM as its what we have and is a better evaluator to me.

FYI my top 5 is in tiers:
Curry
Paul
Harden


Westbrook
Lebron


Then AD, then Kawhi, Griffin, and maybe Cousins. BG can move up as can Lebron, and the five may switch order. The only one who can drop out is Westbrook if BG keeps it up and the Clips make a deep run, but his RS wasn't nearly as good so its close.

Agree pretty much though I would still put LeBron at 4 right now and I might move Harden to the second tier if he doesn't play well against the Clippers but it's only 1 game. I do think he will bounce back.

[bondom34]

I have a tough time defining exact criteria as mine are not as metric based as some others. Ultimately, looking at quality of play and how much an individual helped his team over the entirety of the year over a replacement is my general criteria. I'd ask myself how would a team have done if said player was out and the team was given an average player at his spot. Regular season is still very important to me as well. I'll use RAPM and RPM to a slight extent, but generally more to separate out general trends, not absolutes. As well, I've explained my hesitance with npi so I lean a not more on RPM as its what we have and is a better evaluator to me.

FYI my top 5 is in tiers:
Curry
Paul
Harden


Westbrook
Lebron


Then AD, then Kawhi, Griffin, and maybe Cousins. BG can move up as can Lebron, and the five may switch order. The only one who can drop out is Westbrook if BG keeps it up and the Clips make a deep run, but his RS wasn't nearly as good so its close.

Agree pretty much though I would still put LeBron at 4 right now and I might move Harden to the second tier if he doesn't play well against the Clippers but it's only 1 game. I do think he will bounce back.

Yeah I may have Lebron at four too, those were just the tiers. He can move up a tier and Harden drop one is what I meant.

[Jaivl]

#1 - General ability to impact the point diferential.
#2 - Ability to apply point #1 to a variety of situations (elevating title contenders, lottery teams and different offensive/defensive schemes...).
#3 - Some assessment of skillset. Any flagrant weaknesses come PO time? Is his skillset easily replaceable in today's league (that's "today's league" for this list, it would be "where xxxx played" in an ATL)? Is his skillset portable between eras (not used in a yearly list, but used in the ATL)? For ex. in the Griffin vs Gasol thread I said that I value Griffin's skillset more in the present-day NBA.
#4 - Personality pluses or issues. Is he a locker room cancer or a team guy? Goes kind of tied to #2.

So overall it all relates and it's kinda the same point, but I like to divide it in parts.

[HeartBreakKid]

Anyone think LeBron might play his way out of their top 5s?

Nah, I don't think so, but he's played his way out of the top 3 for me.

[RSCD3_]

Blake Griffin looking like a Demon tonight.

[Doctor MJ]

On the notion of Griffin jumping in and LeBron falling out, the latter is possible because of the former...but the former might happen regardless.

The Clippers beat the Rockets in a sweep with Griffin looking by far the best player the whole time, you have to start taking Griffin vs Harden seriously.

[bondom34]

On the notion of Griffin jumping in and LeBron falling out, the latter is possible because of the former...but the former might happen regardless.

The Clippers beat the Rockets in a sweep with Griffin looking by far the best player the whole time, you have to start taking Griffin vs Harden seriously.

Well, LA lost, but Harden was still not impressive and Blake was. I have a hard time putting Blake that high and dropping Harden that much, but yet again we're here, in the postseason, questioning Harden. Something's off again, its bizarre.

[GSP]

Anyone think LeBron might play his way out of their top 5s?

Nah, I don't think so, but he's played his way out of the top 3 for me.

Id have to agree with this. I think Steph, Cp3 and Davis are def the top3 separated from the rest first 2 might even be a bit above Davis. Lebrons jumper is just completely gone, playmaking isnt as good. Hes has similar struggles as 11 and 12 Miami offensively (and his defense isnt on the level it was then) this is a big drop from the complete skillset he showed last season and 13

[PaulieWal]

Anyone think LeBron might play his way out of their top 5s?

Nah, I don't think so, but he's played his way out of the top 3 for me.

Id have to agree with this. I think Steph, Cp3 and Davis are def the top3 separated from the rest first 2 might even be a bit above Davis. Lebrons jumper is just completely gone, playmaking isnt as good. Hes has similar struggles as 11 and 12 Miami offensively (and his defense isnt on the level it was then) this is a big drop from the complete skillset he showed last season and 13

The bigger difference is that unlike 2012 he's not as willing to go into the post and seems more content playing on the perimeter even when his shot isn't falling. IIRC he was a horrible 17% or 20% outside the paint after game 6 against Boston lol but still dominated all those games.

[CBA]

Well, LA lost, but Harden was still not impressive and Blake was.

...Huh? Are you judging this simply based on feeling?

[CBA]

Despite the 7 turnovers, he held a higher ORTG than Blake with 7 assists, 32 points on 68%TS, and the highest +/- of the game. As lackluster as Harden was in the first half, Blake was in the second - 8 points on 9 field goals, IIRC.

I understand it's difficult for people to remove their perception of what's occurring from the "narrative."

[QRich3]

Despite the 7 turnovers, he held a higher ORTG than Blake with 7 assists, 32 points on 68%TS, and the highest +/- of the game. As lackluster as Harden was in the first half, Blake was in the second - 8 points on 9 field goals, IIRC.

I understand it's difficult for people to remove their perception of what's occurring from the "narrative."

Well Blake had a 61%TS himself and their ORtg differs on 0.03 PPP, which is nothing too significant for a single game. I'd say Crawford chucking up a million stupid shots had more to do with Blake's lower ORtg than anything. The fact that Blake only had 9 FG after such an impressive 1st half is more significant to me than him scoring only 8 points. And I blame Doc for allowing it and Crawford for being himself, mostly.

[bondom34]

Despite the 7 turnovers, he held a higher ORTG than Blake with 7 assists, 32 points on 68%TS, and the highest +/- of the game. As lackluster as Harden was in the first half, Blake was in the second - 8 points on 9 field goals, IIRC.

I understand it's difficult for people to remove their perception of what's occurring from the "narrative."

No narrative, but frankly single game plus minus isn't very useful. Harden would have been my mvp vote, but he hasnt played well at all by that standard. 7 tos isn't good. It was ugly and they struuggked at home to be LA without Paul. Not good.

[Mutnt]

How hasn't Hardenplayed well so far? Ok, his turnovers are a bit too high but other than that he's doing what he always does or am I missing something? Getting you like 10 free points from the free throw line every game is unheard of, no one in the league is even close to that production from the stripe

[bondom34]

He's been poor to the standards we are holding guys to in this thread. If you gave that same stat line to Curry, Paul, Lebron, or Westbrook (or another perimeter player in consideration) you'd likely say it wasn't great. He was at best the fourth best player on the court behind Dwight, Griffin, and DJ. Its not a bad game in the purest sense bit it is when you've set a certain standard.

[PaulieWal]

He's been poor to the standards we are holding guys to in this thread. If you gave that same stat line to Curry, Paul, Lebron, or Westbrook (or another perimeter player in consideration) you'd likely say it wasn't great. He was at best the fourth best player on the court behind Dwight, Griffin, and DJ. Its not a bad game in the purest sense bit it is when you've set a certain standard.

Pretty much. His first two games in the series have been pretty underwhelming and all the others players ITT are being held to a different standard if the game last night is considered a "good game" for Harden.

[Dr Positivity]

Harden looked terrible for 1.75 games. However his last 14 minutes or so of Game 2 helped redeem his series so far.

[JLei]

Nah, I don't think so, but he's played his way out of the top 3 for me.

Id have to agree with this. I think Steph, Cp3 and Davis are def the top3 separated from the rest first 2 might even be a bit above Davis. Lebrons jumper is just completely gone, playmaking isnt as good. Hes has similar struggles as 11 and 12 Miami offensively (and his defense isnt on the level it was then) this is a big drop from the complete skillset he showed last season and 13

The bigger difference is that unlike 2012 he's not as willing to go into the post and seems more content playing on the perimeter even when his shot isn't falling. IIRC he was a horrible 17% or 20% outside the paint after game 6 against Boston lol but still dominated all those games.

His personal efficiency is down but they are still ripping off a 111 OTRG with him on the floor against the above average defenses 11th and 12th best defensive teams in the league. 11 and 12 Heat (until the 12 Finals when they unleashed Battier) never got to that level. And Bron is doing everything on O getting them to that 111 OTRG (and it's too much to be honest with the overhandling which is part of the personal efficiency drop).

Look at this.
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/drives/

Bron by existing and driving to the basket/ posting up just sucks in the defense even if he isn't making the layups (which he is). And this doesn't include secondary assists which he has 9 of this playoffs, which given that Cleveland is good at swinging the ball would extend his big lead over everyone else in team offense.

You guys are way too caught up in personal efficiency instead of looking at the impact on the teams offense. Yes he can't shoot right now but still doesn't make him way less effective. Less effective sure but not the HUGE DECLINE you guys are talking about.

And his defense has been almost as good as 2011/2012 so far this playoffs. He's not been nearly good as he was in 13/14 when his jumper was on but he's still been a better offensive player than 11/12 Bron and a little bit worse defensive player.

The myth that he's been garbage this year on O needs to stop. He's different but only a little bit less effective than 13/14 Bron.