2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#301 » by eminence » Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:10 am

Jordan Syndrome wrote:
eminence wrote:Good first game, but first half of game 2 back to looking poor for Utah, bleh, was hoping to put some of this inconsistency behind us.


I would buy stock into the Timberwolves. They have a ton of mediocre to above average wings and an all-nba Center. They appear to play unselfishly and play hard defensively.

Anthony Edwards looks better than advertised.


What's the price point? I could see buying in as a play-in team, though I still doubt it, any higher than that 8th or lower range and I'm out.

Tonight I think was mostly Utah looking really poor.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#302 » by Jordan Syndrome » Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:25 am

eminence wrote:
Jordan Syndrome wrote:
eminence wrote:Good first game, but first half of game 2 back to looking poor for Utah, bleh, was hoping to put some of this inconsistency behind us.


I would buy stock into the Timberwolves. They have a ton of mediocre to above average wings and an all-nba Center. They appear to play unselfishly and play hard defensively.

Anthony Edwards looks better than advertised.


What's the price point? I could see buying in as a play-in team, though I still doubt it, any higher than that 8th or lower range and I'm out.

Tonight I think was mostly Utah looking really poor.


I think the price point currently is low and they could finish quite high compared to most models.

I dont see them finishing ahead of the Lakers, Nuggets, Clippers, Blazers, or Jazz. I could see them finishing ahead of any of Dallas and Phoenix but I wouldn't bet at that. You are correct, 8th looks right as a "reasonable" top finish. I dont see them lower than 10th barring injury to Towns wrist.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#303 » by Timmyyy » Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:30 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:It's not feeling, at this early date, like this is going to be the year Luka breaks through as MVP. Trae Young on the other hand began the year exactly like he needs to to get that MVP, but it will be a shock if the Hawks are good enough to keep him in the conversation.


I think the question with Trae Young will be whether he can somehow reduce his gigantic negative defensive impact enough or not. His offense is just amazing, as you said. I think there is no doubt about that. And it indeed seems like it is already great enough to be in the conversation for best in the league.
I know as a PG it is not as bad to be a bad defender, but from what we saw from him in the NBA, he really is one of the biggest negatives in the league on D. So more Isaiah Thomas than Steve Nash on D.

If he is able to get to the point where he is only a slight negative on D, I think he is an MVP candidate for years to come.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#304 » by ShotCreator » Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:09 pm

Heej wrote:...
What do you think about Christian Wood? Comparisons? Potential? Body type? Whatever weird unique observation you can make? What pops out to you?
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#305 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:37 pm

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#306 » by RCM88x » Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:30 pm

Honestly depending on how healthy Boogie is, this might be Harden's best supporting cast in Houston outside of 2018. Christian Wood legitimately might be a top 20 player this year and Wall has looked much better than expected in the minutes he's played.

Don't think this team really is a contender even if things go right, but I have a hard time seeing a situation that would be better for Harden.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#307 » by Heej » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:58 am

ShotCreator wrote:
Heej wrote:...
What do you think about Christian Wood? Comparisons? Potential? Body type? Whatever weird unique observation you can make? What pops out to you?

It took me until the first minute of the second quarter to come up with who he looks like to me, but I'm thinking a smaller and more perimeter oriented Porzingis. How he moves is similar in that he takes a while to rev up to top speed but his strides are so long that it looks like the floor is shrinking when he gets to his third stride. His ball security is a little better tho but he has that same "big wing" type deal going on with his movement patterns but kinda lacking as far as lateral agility and shiftiness goes compared to true perimeter types

I love how he can function as an outlet to bring up the ball when the PG's denied because his guys always down the floor, and it helps the Rockets get into their sets quicker. Def see that being a new meta in the 2020s where the skilled bigs can also hang back and bring the ball up consistently. I feel like Draymond was allowed to, but at times it felt like Wood was literally the second guy they looked to when the PG was hard denied on the inbound.

I think his defensive IQ is a little dreadful and like KP he lumbers a bit too much so he can't plant and explode on those quick twitch reactionary rotations. He's very slight down low tho which seems like it could hold him back (esp on rebounds where he looks really soft on the boards) and he doesn't seem all that promising as a perimeter defender tbh. His passing is not bad tho. I don't see why he can't be a top 10 type center in the league with that offensive package. If his perimeter defense gets better then damn
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#308 » by toodles23 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:11 am

Curry and the Warriors play this season are showing how stacked and ridiculously high IQ the '15-'19 Warriors were. Teams like the Rockets and Lebron Cavs got a lot of criticism compared to the Warriors because of their simple, heliocentric model, but what we're now seeing is that for 99% of NBA teams Kerr's system doesn't work because it requires exceptionally high IQ players to function well.

In Kerr's system you're inevitably going to ask guys like Wiggins to make quick, quality reads and decisions in all kinds of situations. That makes you unguardable if it's Iguodala, but with your typical player it probably won't work out that well.

For all the talk of Curry's portability, in many ways I think guys like Luka/Lebron/Harden are much more portable because their games consolidate most of the team's decision making into their hands, making the game very simple for the other guys.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#309 » by Peregrine01 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:34 am

toodles23 wrote:Curry and the Warriors play this season are showing how stacked and ridiculously high IQ the '15-'19 Warriors were. Teams like the Rockets and Lebron Cavs got a lot of criticism compared to the Warriors because of their simple, heliocentric model, but what we're now seeing is that for 99% of NBA teams Kerr's system doesn't work because it requires exceptionally high IQ players to function well.

In Kerr's system you're inevitably going to ask guys like Wiggins to make quick, quality reads and decisions in all kinds of situations. That makes you unguardable if it's Iguodala, but with your typical player it probably won't work out that well.

For all the talk of Curry's portability, in many ways I think guys like Luka/Lebron/Harden are much more portable because their games consolidate most of the team's decision making into their hands, making the game very simple for the other guys.


Agreed mostly here. I'll also add that in addition to high IQ, a system like Kerr's also requires a high degree of cohesion and familiarity. It's analogous to operating a symphony - everyone needs to be tuned in to what everyone else is doing. Aside from a shortened training camp, the Warriors are actually practicing this style in real games.

Re Curry's portability. I think the idea here is that Curry scales well when playing next to other superstar talents in a way more ball-dominant players aren't.

I also think that he can play in a more heliocentric model ala Luka/Lebron/Harden. He did that pre-Kerr and is also one of the best on-ball offensive players in the game. This of course goes against the current Warriors ethos even if it may lead to more success for the team as they are constructed currently.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#310 » by GSP » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:11 am

Jokic just had 8 assists in the 3rd, 0 Fga and Denver was +13 and blew the game open

averaging 13 assist now through 3 games. How insane would it be if he led the league in it?

When was the last time a big or 7fter led the league in assists? Wilt?
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#311 » by AdagioPace » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:20 am

toodles23 wrote:Curry and the Warriors play this season are showing how stacked and ridiculously high IQ the '15-'19 Warriors were. Teams like the Rockets and Lebron Cavs got a lot of criticism compared to the Warriors because of their simple, heliocentric model, but what we're now seeing is that for 99% of NBA teams Kerr's system doesn't work because it requires exceptionally high IQ players to function well.

In Kerr's system you're inevitably going to ask guys like Wiggins to make quick, quality reads and decisions in all kinds of situations. That makes you unguardable if it's Iguodala, but with your typical player it probably won't work out that well.

For all the talk of Curry's portability, in many ways I think guys like Luka/Lebron/Harden are much more portable because their games consolidate most of the team's decision making into their hands, making the game very simple for the other guys.



this is something I've thought about many times. There will always be more mediocre teams around needing a boost than all-time great ones.
It rests on how much you value being of great utility to as many teams as possible (a.k.a being widely expendable), vs, being of great utility to a minority of all-time great teams.
When talking about portabiity the discussion here has always revolved round "the best of the possible worlds" maybe because being portable in a low-talent environment is given for granted and not of much interest when talking about all-time rankings. Call it, "inverse-portability" if you want. (are we just squabbling around the definition of floor-raising ?)

Doncic,harden and lebron are literally more "portable", physically speaking. In classical latin there was the term "portāre" (it survives in italian) which means "carry" or "carry around".
They can be carried around the league and put in a variety of contexts without showing a decline in their performances making the most out of the amount of talent surrounding them.

PS: what applies to '15-'19 Warriors ,also applies to '12-'15 Spurs. Once Popovich realized that tony,manu,timmy and diaw were declining inexorably, he decided to go straight to iso kawhi-aldridge mode.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#312 » by parsnips33 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:04 pm

toodles23 wrote:Curry and the Warriors play this season are showing how stacked and ridiculously high IQ the '15-'19 Warriors were. Teams like the Rockets and Lebron Cavs got a lot of criticism compared to the Warriors because of their simple, heliocentric model, but what we're now seeing is that for 99% of NBA teams Kerr's system doesn't work because it requires exceptionally high IQ players to function well.

In Kerr's system you're inevitably going to ask guys like Wiggins to make quick, quality reads and decisions in all kinds of situations. That makes you unguardable if it's Iguodala, but with your typical player it probably won't work out that well.

For all the talk of Curry's portability, in many ways I think guys like Luka/Lebron/Harden are much more portable because their games consolidate most of the team's decision making into their hands, making the game very simple for the other guys.


Don't neccessarily disagree with a lot of this, but I don't think the fact that it's a shortened training camp/offseason plus a lot of new guys can be totally discounted. I think the schemes need to be simplified somewhat, but continuity is an underrated factor, maybe just as much as actual skill/IQ, when it comes to how a scheme like this can work.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#313 » by MisterHibachi » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:27 am

Indiana seems legitimately good.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#314 » by GSP » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:12 am

Westbrook is done. He looks horrible out there i dont care what the boxscore says. Hes gotta be one of the worst defenders in the league at this point

Itd be such a hit on him if he cant even get this team to the play in game
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#315 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:57 am

AdagioPace wrote:
toodles23 wrote:Curry and the Warriors play this season are showing how stacked and ridiculously high IQ the '15-'19 Warriors were. Teams like the Rockets and Lebron Cavs got a lot of criticism compared to the Warriors because of their simple, heliocentric model, but what we're now seeing is that for 99% of NBA teams Kerr's system doesn't work because it requires exceptionally high IQ players to function well.

In Kerr's system you're inevitably going to ask guys like Wiggins to make quick, quality reads and decisions in all kinds of situations. That makes you unguardable if it's Iguodala, but with your typical player it probably won't work out that well.

For all the talk of Curry's portability, in many ways I think guys like Luka/Lebron/Harden are much more portable because their games consolidate most of the team's decision making into their hands, making the game very simple for the other guys.



this is something I've thought about many times. There will always be more mediocre teams around needing a boost than all-time great ones.
It rests on how much you value being of great utility to as many teams as possible (a.k.a being widely expendable), vs, being of great utility to a minority of all-time great teams.
When talking about portabiity the discussion here has always revolved round "the best of the possible worlds" maybe because being portable in a low-talent environment is given for granted and not of much interest when talking about all-time rankings. Call it, "inverse-portability" if you want. (are we just squabbling around the definition of floor-raising ?)

Doncic,harden and lebron are literally more "portable", physically speaking. In classical latin there was the term "portāre" (it survives in italian) which means "carry" or "carry around".
They can be carried around the league and put in a variety of contexts without showing a decline in their performances making the most out of the amount of talent surrounding them.

PS: what applies to '15-'19 Warriors ,also applies to '12-'15 Spurs. Once Popovich realized that tony,manu,timmy and diaw were declining inexorably, he decided to go straight to iso kawhi-aldridge mode.


I think it's really important, when discussing Curry, to remember what things were like in '12-13 and especially '13-14. Under Mark Jackson, there was no requirement for high BBIQ players because the system had not IQ. And Green was on the bench, and Klay was not the Klay he'd be under Kerr...which has everything to do with why West and others wanted Jackson fired.

In that capacity, Curry was more ball-dominant, and was regularly taking and making astonishingly difficult shots. People see the 6 seed and the year after and conclude quite rightly that this Warrior team had something really wrong with it, but Curry managed to lead the league in +/- that regular season. I'm not talking about on/off, I mean, there was more winning done on the floor with Curry that regular season than anyone else in the entire league.

I think people confuse disrupting Kerr's motion offense with fundamentally stopping Curry. The reality is that he's proven to be a superstar level offensive anchor before "playing with joy", and when you're seeing him struggle with Kerr, you're seeing him struggle in the style Kerr has him play.

Now, I'm not trying to claim that Curry can be a one-man band like Harden because frankly Harden's blown past anyone in history on that front. There are guys who can handle great volume better than Curry, just not many.

This is another way of saying that if Curry is still basically prime Curry, I really don't think there's any doubt that he could do the heliocentric thing pretty dang well. Maybe he's not really physically up to it now, I don't know, but I know that either way Kerr wants to keep playing in the style he's been playing because that's what he loves, and if the Steph/Klay/Dray are able to come back to form together, that's probably still the best approach.

But it's a hard jump start pulling that off with a roster that isn't used to playing together and who largely has never played this way at all. It's easier to slot one new guy in than it is to re-create the necessary skill set from nothing.

Re: portability. Yeah, it's a term that's tough because the word can be applied to many things. I'd say the key thing here is that "portability" as we use it is largely a concept that normalizes for talent. The more portable player is supposed to be the one who can fit in around the game's of others. Similar to versatility, but you don't need to be able to that versatile depending on your style of play.

As for the more Harden-type concept, I'd lean on the "heliocentric" metaphor and I'd be inclined to say that where more portable players are better planets, Harden's a better sun.

Another terminology which is perhaps more practical here is floor-raising vs ceiling-raising. Floor-raisers can go anywhere and do their thing, but they may need to shove everyone else with major talent into tiny shadows of themselves in order to do it. Ceiling-raisers are the ones who make it easier for other major talents to thrive when they are actually on the court together.

We don't use the word "portable" for floor-raisers, but the implication of the term is that you can raise that floor anywhere, so we're aware that there is a sense of portability that applies.

As far as portable and ceiling-raising, someone who is portable may not be that much of a ceiling-raiser necessarily, because in the end if you can do several things pretty well but nothing exceptionally well, that's a lowering of ceiling. But there is a type of player that is both portable and scalable to exceptionally high ceilings, and Curry at his best is one of these.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#316 » by GSP » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:41 am

Suns look scary. Would not be surprised if they made the Wcf. They have some tough matchups for the Lakers too at guard (Cp3/Carter), wings (Bridges/Crowder) and Ayton inside

Booker is trying on defense and doesnt even care if he scores much. Ayton shows flashes of his potential. Crowder has just bounced back hard and is a top tier role player now.

Bench is really good with Saric, Cam, Carter, Kaminsky and even Cam Payne has turned into a decent backup Pg. They have Etwan Moore too who can play but doesnt even get minutes
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#317 » by Goudelock » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:39 am

Tyrese Haliburton is so damn good. He's not a guy who is going to be a dynamic on-ball scorer, but he seems to be good at pretty much every other aspect of the game. Defensively he looks solid (although he could stand to add some strength), his shot is decent enough when open, and he makes the right pass most of the time. I don't know if he'll ever be an all star, but I could see him playing for 15 years and being an integral part of championship teams.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#318 » by Peregrine01 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:54 pm

Jokic's passing...oh my.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#319 » by MO12msu » Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:59 am

Trae Young has mastered the dark arts of foul drawing...
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#320 » by toodles23 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:10 am

MO12msu wrote:Trae Young has mastered the dark arts of foul drawing...

The league is long overdue to curtail all of the call seeking we're seeing from guys now, but I'm afraid that by letting it get to where it is now they can't reign it back in. Trae is just the ultimate form of drawing BS fouls, he has every trick pioneered by earlier guys - the headsnap, stopping on a dime coming around screens and flopping into a 3 shot foul (and of course falling down on more typical attempts), the CP3 sudden stop while bringing the ball upcourt to have a defender run into you, and of course his slight frame helps him exaggerate all of the contact he gets in the lane, drawing all kinds of calls that stronger players would never get. I like the guy a lot but all of the calls are really harming his watchability.

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