Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition]

[Kabookalu]

If he's the greatest I don't know, I haven't seen them all. But I've seen enough NBA from the last 25 years (obviously not all live I started watching in 97) and I'd say he's right at the top.

Doing a spin move has nothing to do with athleticism.

Are you kidding me? It has EVERYTHING to do with athleticism.

A guy can be very fast, jump really high, strong as a Bull and be the best athlete of all time.

If he never played basketball he won't be able to do a quick eurostep move.

That's because it is a technichal skill players develop. It's a specific kind of move.

If you give Bolt a basket ball he probably can't run the court faster dribbling it than Westbrook or LeBron. That doesn't mean he isn't faster.

That's not even comparable at all. Dribbling a basketball is a sport specific skill. Doing a spin is universal that's in every sport but employed differently. In almost every physical related sport you're spinning in some form or manner. Spin move is all athleticism. Andrew Wiggins, one of the rawest and least skilled number 1 picks of all time, has the cleanest spin move and euro step I've ever seen from a rookie. That's more athleticism than it is skill.

[Joao Saraiva]

Are you kidding me? It has EVERYTHING to do with athleticism.

A guy can be very fast, jump really high, strong as a Bull and be the best athlete of all time.

If he never played basketball he won't be able to do a quick eurostep move.

That's because it is a technichal skill players develop. It's a specific kind of move.

If you give Bolt a basket ball he probably can't run the court faster dribbling it than Westbrook or LeBron. That doesn't mean he isn't faster.

That's not even comparable at all. Dribbling a basketball is a sport specific skill. Doing a spin is universal that's in every sport but employed differently. In almost every physical related sport you're spinning in some form or manner. Spin move is all athleticism. Andrew Wiggins, one of the rawest and least skilled number 1 picks of all time, has the cleanest spin move and euro step I've ever seen from a rookie. That's more athleticism than it is skill.

1st of all:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ5yu1m9q0U[/youtube]

He actually uses his spin moves often. I don't really know why you say he can't do it.

2nd:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9gB-UaUb5E[/youtube]

How much strenght do you think a guy has to have to make a shot like this? He's not even running full speed. He just stops, raises and with his natural shot form he drains it from half court. This shows elite strenght.

3rd his dunks. Power, speed... elite athleticism.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-QTiByTKaI[/youtube]

And just to end some footage from 09 in the ECF. Blocking peak Howard, chase fantastic dunks, alley oops, running the court like no other... If he's the best athlete ever I don't know, since diferent sports require diferent athletic skills. But basketball wise I'd say he's the best I've ever seen in that regard.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbxqVdN3gwM[/youtube]

At 2:30 you can see him using the spin move, for example.

At 7:50 another fantastic spin move...

[Kabookalu]

A guy can be very fast, jump really high, strong as a Bull and be the best athlete of all time.

If he never played basketball he won't be able to do a quick eurostep move.

That's because it is a technichal skill players develop. It's a specific kind of move.

If you give Bolt a basket ball he probably can't run the court faster dribbling it than Westbrook or LeBron. That doesn't mean he isn't faster.

That's not even comparable at all. Dribbling a basketball is a sport specific skill. Doing a spin is universal that's in every sport but employed differently. In almost every physical related sport you're spinning in some form or manner. Spin move is all athleticism. Andrew Wiggins, one of the rawest and least skilled number 1 picks of all time, has the cleanest spin move and euro step I've ever seen from a rookie. That's more athleticism than it is skill.

1st of all:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ5yu1m9q0U[/youtube]

He actually uses his spin moves often. I don't really know why you say he can't do it.

2nd:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9gB-UaUb5E[/youtube]

How much strenght do you think a guy has to have to make a shot like this? He's not even running full speed. He just stops, raises and with his natural shot form he drains it from half court. This shows elite strenght.

3rd his dunks. Power, speed... elite athleticism.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-QTiByTKaI[/youtube]

And just to end some footage from 09 in the ECF. Blocking peak Howard, chase fantastic dunks, alley oops, running the court like no other... If he's the best athlete ever I don't know, since diferent sports require diferent athletic skills. But basketball wise I'd say he's the best I've ever seen in that regard.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbxqVdN3gwM[/youtube]

At 2:30 you can see him using the spin move, for example.

At 7:50 another fantastic spin move...

Dude I've never argued that he wasn't an elite jumper with top notch speed, so you're wasting your time bringing all that up. And secondly we have different definitions of what a great spin move really is. Guys who can do it in traffic routinely and keep their balance without falling over like a Wiggins and Tony Parker? What LeBron does is plainly average, not great by any stretch. I feel like he's going to fall down whenever he does it. Reminds me of when Jeremy Lin did that spin move against Derek Fisher at the height of Linsanity. He spun and almost fell over.

And why do I put so much stock in the spin move? Because if we're forced to use one exact measure of calculating a player's coordination, it'd have to be the spin move. By the nature of the move you're forcing yourself out of balance and reconfiguring your body to adapt to a new situation. Coordination isn't the only measure of athleticism, but I consider it the most important. You can get away with not being the strongest or fastest guy on the court, if you're coordinated. Look at Steve Nash. In his prime he can get any kind of shot off that he wanted, all because he was well coordinated. Unless he was harassed by multiple defenders he rarely lost balance of himself.

Most of basketball is played within the painted area. That's where the majority of points are scored. Being able to maneuver around that painted area will open up so many more scoring opportunities for you with elite coordination. Elite coordination allows you to adapt to continuously changing scenarios on a dime, like Hakeem's Dream Shake.

And this is why I mention LeBron's IQ. He can get away without elite coordination, in comparison to other all time greats, because he doesn't need to use it as much as Jordan and Kobe had to. But if he did? Then I bet there'd be a lot less talk of him being the greatest athlete of all time.

[Joao Saraiva]

That's not even comparable at all. Dribbling a basketball is a sport specific skill. Doing a spin is universal that's in every sport but employed differently. In almost every physical related sport you're spinning in some form or manner. Spin move is all athleticism. Andrew Wiggins, one of the rawest and least skilled number 1 picks of all time, has the cleanest spin move and euro step I've ever seen from a rookie. That's more athleticism than it is skill.

1st of all:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ5yu1m9q0U[/youtube]

He actually uses his spin moves often. I don't really know why you say he can't do it.

2nd:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9gB-UaUb5E[/youtube]

How much strenght do you think a guy has to have to make a shot like this? He's not even running full speed. He just stops, raises and with his natural shot form he drains it from half court. This shows elite strenght.

3rd his dunks. Power, speed... elite athleticism.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-QTiByTKaI[/youtube]

And just to end some footage from 09 in the ECF. Blocking peak Howard, chase fantastic dunks, alley oops, running the court like no other... If he's the best athlete ever I don't know, since diferent sports require diferent athletic skills. But basketball wise I'd say he's the best I've ever seen in that regard.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbxqVdN3gwM[/youtube]

At 2:30 you can see him using the spin move, for example.

At 7:50 another fantastic spin move...

Dude I've never argued that he wasn't an elite jumper with top notch speed, so you're wasting your time bringing all that up. And secondly we have different definitions of what a great spin move really is. Guys who can do it in traffic routinely and keep their balance without falling over like a Wiggins and Tony Parker? What LeBron does is plainly average, not great by any stretch. I feel like he's going to fall down whenever he does it. Reminds me of when Jeremy Lin did that spin move against Derek Fisher at the height of Linsanity. He spun and almost fell over.

And why do I put so much stock in the spin move? Because if we're forced to use one exact measure of calculating a player's coordination, it'd have to be the spin move. By the nature of the move you're forcing yourself out of balance and reconfiguring your body to adapt to a new situation. Coordination isn't the only measure of athleticism, but I consider it the most important. You can get away with not being the strongest or fastest guy on the court, if you're coordinated. Look at Steve Nash. In his prime he can get any kind of shot off that he wanted, all because he was well coordinated. Unless he was harassed by multiple defenders he rarely lost balance of himself.

Most of basketball is played within the painted area. That's where the majority of points are scored. Being able to maneuver around that painted area will open up so many more scoring opportunities for you with elite coordination. Elite coordination allows you to adapt to continuously changing scenarios on a dime, like Hakeem's Dream Shake.

And this is why I mention LeBron's IQ. He can get away without elite coordination, in comparison to other all time greats, because he doesn't need to use it as much as Jordan and Kobe had to. But if he did? Then I bet there'd be a lot less talk of him being the greatest athlete of all time.

I'm sorry but I just don't buy it.

1st of all because only against Orlando in those highlights we see LeBron doing that move perfectly in trafic. And more than once.

2nd because the spin move is just one move. Does that really define athleticism? Is Tony Parker a better athlete than LBJ?

3rd you're putting too much on one particular move to make that statement. A player can have great handling and balance and do a spin move in perfection without even dunking the ball. So is that player a fantastic athlete?

Athleticism in basketball has a lot more to do with how quick you are, how high you jump, how long can you sustain the jump and how much strenght you have to draw faouls and still finish, or being able to keep up with strong guys in the post.

I know this is an unpopular opinions thread, but judging athleticism on spin moves... I'm really surprised at this kind of evaluation.

[scrabbarista]

My most unpopular opinion on this board is probably having Elvin Hayes in the Top 25. I have too many windows open on my laptop to check it now, but I think I have him at #21. Why? Great raw numbers, and a "Best Player On a Champ" in '78. See below for possibly nonsensical ramble.

Spoiler:

I know there are very intelligent people who will go a bit crazy at such "simplistic" thinking, but as others (Chuck Texas, e.g.) have delineated, I don't think there's anything simple about winning at all. There is only one best player on a championship team every year - except in the rare years when there are two equally good players on the champ (which means there's even less than one per year). I am more impressed by a year like Duncan's in '14 than I would be by a 30ppg/15rpg regular season and a first round exit. If you're talented enough to get those numbers, then find a way to win. The reality is that any player who could put up those kind of numbers will eventually (barring injury, obvs) have a chance to win a title. The question is how he responds. When he has a chance to switch teams to a better contender, does he take it? When he can sign for more money on a non-contender, does he do it? When the coach asks him to change his style of play for the sake of wins, does he listen? Are other players in/out of the league dying to play on his team? The point of the game is to win, period. Duncan in '14 had what circumstances required, he "had what it took." Garnett in '04 did not (but he did in '08). I'm not talking about peaks. I don't think much about peaks. I think more about careers. You come into the league and you get maybe one shot to win a title as your team's best player. If you're GOAT-material, maybe you get ten or fifteen shots. What matters to me is 1) did you do it? 2) how many times did you do it? What doesn't matter so much is how many points, etc. you got while doing it. Take Carmelo Anthony's situation right now. Some people have said that in the right/perfect situation, Carmelo could be/have been the best player on a championship team. Some people have said that he's been in bad situations over the course of his career. My response is that even if both of these things are true, Carmelo could have put himself in different situations, but he didn't because of his values and who he is as a person. Who he is on the court is an extension of who he is off the court, and this is true for everyone on the planet who's ever done work of any kind: who you are when you're working is an extension of who you are when you aren't working. Maybe you'd be better at your job if you worked at another company, but you don't work at another company, and you don't have that other job, you have the one you have, and the only question, unless you're willing to do what it takes to get another job, is do you get it done? Last year Curry got it done and Lebron didn't. That means Curry was better, for that year. Maybe that's because Curry signed for 44 million and had spent several years developing chemistry on and off the court with his teammates, while Lebron switched teams twice and had to develop chemistry with his teammates over just one season. Maybe that because Lebron demanded Kevin Love instead of Wiggins. Maybe it's because of a billion other possible reasons, any of which could be used to construct/defend whatever narrative you wanted. But none of that is the point. Everything else is fun to discuss, but what matters most in relation to '15 is that Curry got it done. And there have been so few guys to get it done in the league's history that I have to big-up those guys in my rankings. Hence Hayes in the Top 25. There was a thread a while back on "Does leadership exist and can it be quantified?" I noticed, and this is obviously anecdotal and general, that fans of teams like the Warriors and Mavs would come down strongly on the side of leadership, while fans of teams like the Raptors or Hornets would be more likely to dismiss its importance. To me, this was because the previous group of fans had actually seen it and what it could accomplish, while the latter group had only seen its absence and weren't yet convinced of its importance. But it's there.

[Kabookalu]

1st of all:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ5yu1m9q0U[/youtube]

He actually uses his spin moves often. I don't really know why you say he can't do it.

2nd:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9gB-UaUb5E[/youtube]

How much strenght do you think a guy has to have to make a shot like this? He's not even running full speed. He just stops, raises and with his natural shot form he drains it from half court. This shows elite strenght.

3rd his dunks. Power, speed... elite athleticism.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-QTiByTKaI[/youtube]

And just to end some footage from 09 in the ECF. Blocking peak Howard, chase fantastic dunks, alley oops, running the court like no other... If he's the best athlete ever I don't know, since diferent sports require diferent athletic skills. But basketball wise I'd say he's the best I've ever seen in that regard.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbxqVdN3gwM[/youtube]

At 2:30 you can see him using the spin move, for example.

At 7:50 another fantastic spin move...

Dude I've never argued that he wasn't an elite jumper with top notch speed, so you're wasting your time bringing all that up. And secondly we have different definitions of what a great spin move really is. Guys who can do it in traffic routinely and keep their balance without falling over like a Wiggins and Tony Parker? What LeBron does is plainly average, not great by any stretch. I feel like he's going to fall down whenever he does it. Reminds me of when Jeremy Lin did that spin move against Derek Fisher at the height of Linsanity. He spun and almost fell over.

And why do I put so much stock in the spin move? Because if we're forced to use one exact measure of calculating a player's coordination, it'd have to be the spin move. By the nature of the move you're forcing yourself out of balance and reconfiguring your body to adapt to a new situation. Coordination isn't the only measure of athleticism, but I consider it the most important. You can get away with not being the strongest or fastest guy on the court, if you're coordinated. Look at Steve Nash. In his prime he can get any kind of shot off that he wanted, all because he was well coordinated. Unless he was harassed by multiple defenders he rarely lost balance of himself.

Most of basketball is played within the painted area. That's where the majority of points are scored. Being able to maneuver around that painted area will open up so many more scoring opportunities for you with elite coordination. Elite coordination allows you to adapt to continuously changing scenarios on a dime, like Hakeem's Dream Shake.

And this is why I mention LeBron's IQ. He can get away without elite coordination, in comparison to other all time greats, because he doesn't need to use it as much as Jordan and Kobe had to. But if he did? Then I bet there'd be a lot less talk of him being the greatest athlete of all time.

I'm sorry but I just don't buy it.

1st of all because only against Orlando in those highlights we see LeBron doing that move perfectly in trafic. And more than once.

2nd because the spin move is just one move. Does that really define athleticism? Is Tony Parker a better athlete than LBJ?

3rd you're putting too much on one particular move to make that statement. A player can have great handling and balance and do a spin move in perfection without even dunking the ball. So is that player a fantastic athlete?

Athleticism in basketball has a lot more to do with how quick you are, how high you jump, how long can you sustain the jump and how much strenght you have to draw faouls and still finish, or being able to keep up with strong guys in the post.

I know this is an unpopular opinions thread, but judging athleticism on spin moves... I'm really surprised at this kind of evaluation.

Dude, you got it all mixed up. I never said that I'm judging all athleticism based on one spin move. I'm not defining an athlete based on how well they can spin. I already said he was a great but overrated athlete, why do you keep purporting that I'm discrediting him as an athlete overall? I'm only focusing on one particular area of his athleticism, coordination. And I'm not saying he has bad coordination, he's good there, but not elite. The greatest athlete of all time should excel in all areas of athleticism. LeBron has the speed, quickness, vertical, strength. Jordan has all that plus fluidity and elite coordination. Orlando Shaq, young Wilt, Hakeem, David Robinson, those guys are also amazingly coordinated, and not just for their heights. Anthony Davis, this is a man that has the body of an athletic point guard who happens to be 6'10 with a 7'4 wingspan. And Iverson, he'd be in the conversation more often if he wasn't a knucklehead and chucker.

And it peeves me that as an athlete LeBron's considered by most a better athlete than all of these players I mentioned. Especially Jordan.

[Joao Saraiva]

Dude I've never argued that he wasn't an elite jumper with top notch speed, so you're wasting your time bringing all that up. And secondly we have different definitions of what a great spin move really is. Guys who can do it in traffic routinely and keep their balance without falling over like a Wiggins and Tony Parker? What LeBron does is plainly average, not great by any stretch. I feel like he's going to fall down whenever he does it. Reminds me of when Jeremy Lin did that spin move against Derek Fisher at the height of Linsanity. He spun and almost fell over.

And why do I put so much stock in the spin move? Because if we're forced to use one exact measure of calculating a player's coordination, it'd have to be the spin move. By the nature of the move you're forcing yourself out of balance and reconfiguring your body to adapt to a new situation. Coordination isn't the only measure of athleticism, but I consider it the most important. You can get away with not being the strongest or fastest guy on the court, if you're coordinated. Look at Steve Nash. In his prime he can get any kind of shot off that he wanted, all because he was well coordinated. Unless he was harassed by multiple defenders he rarely lost balance of himself.

Most of basketball is played within the painted area. That's where the majority of points are scored. Being able to maneuver around that painted area will open up so many more scoring opportunities for you with elite coordination. Elite coordination allows you to adapt to continuously changing scenarios on a dime, like Hakeem's Dream Shake.

And this is why I mention LeBron's IQ. He can get away without elite coordination, in comparison to other all time greats, because he doesn't need to use it as much as Jordan and Kobe had to. But if he did? Then I bet there'd be a lot less talk of him being the greatest athlete of all time.

I'm sorry but I just don't buy it.

1st of all because only against Orlando in those highlights we see LeBron doing that move perfectly in trafic. And more than once.

2nd because the spin move is just one move. Does that really define athleticism? Is Tony Parker a better athlete than LBJ?

3rd you're putting too much on one particular move to make that statement. A player can have great handling and balance and do a spin move in perfection without even dunking the ball. So is that player a fantastic athlete?

Athleticism in basketball has a lot more to do with how quick you are, how high you jump, how long can you sustain the jump and how much strenght you have to draw faouls and still finish, or being able to keep up with strong guys in the post.

I know this is an unpopular opinions thread, but judging athleticism on spin moves... I'm really surprised at this kind of evaluation.

Dude, you got it all mixed up. I never said that I'm judging all athleticism based on one spin move. I'm not defining an athlete based on how well they can spin. I already said he was a great but overrated athlete, why do you keep purporting that I'm discrediting him as an athlete overall? I'm only focusing on one particular area of his athleticism, coordination. And I'm not saying he has bad coordination, he's good there, but not elite. The greatest athlete of all time should excel in all areas of athleticism. LeBron has the speed, quickness, vertical, strength. Jordan has all that plus fluidity and elite coordination. Orlando Shaq, young Wilt, Hakeem, David Robinson, those guys are also amazingly coordinated, and not just for their heights. Anthony Davis, this is a man that has the body of an athletic point guard who happens to be 6'10 with a 7'4 wingspan. And Iverson, he'd be in the conversation more often if he wasn't a knucklehead and chucker.

And it peeves me that as an athlete LeBron's considered by most a better athlete than all of these players I mentioned. Especially Jordan.

I'd like to know how you feel about LeBron and MJ's strenght. Because I think MJ was strong, but not that close to LeBron. I also feel like LBJ and Jordan are similar in the rest, so I'd give LeBron the advantage here.

[Kabookalu]

I'm sorry but I just don't buy it.

1st of all because only against Orlando in those highlights we see LeBron doing that move perfectly in trafic. And more than once.

2nd because the spin move is just one move. Does that really define athleticism? Is Tony Parker a better athlete than LBJ?

3rd you're putting too much on one particular move to make that statement. A player can have great handling and balance and do a spin move in perfection without even dunking the ball. So is that player a fantastic athlete?

Athleticism in basketball has a lot more to do with how quick you are, how high you jump, how long can you sustain the jump and how much strenght you have to draw faouls and still finish, or being able to keep up with strong guys in the post.

I know this is an unpopular opinions thread, but judging athleticism on spin moves... I'm really surprised at this kind of evaluation.

Dude, you got it all mixed up. I never said that I'm judging all athleticism based on one spin move. I'm not defining an athlete based on how well they can spin. I already said he was a great but overrated athlete, why do you keep purporting that I'm discrediting him as an athlete overall? I'm only focusing on one particular area of his athleticism, coordination. And I'm not saying he has bad coordination, he's good there, but not elite. The greatest athlete of all time should excel in all areas of athleticism. LeBron has the speed, quickness, vertical, strength. Jordan has all that plus fluidity and elite coordination. Orlando Shaq, young Wilt, Hakeem, David Robinson, those guys are also amazingly coordinated, and not just for their heights. Anthony Davis, this is a man that has the body of an athletic point guard who happens to be 6'10 with a 7'4 wingspan. And Iverson, he'd be in the conversation more often if he wasn't a knucklehead and chucker.

And it peeves me that as an athlete LeBron's considered by most a better athlete than all of these players I mentioned. Especially Jordan.

I'd like to know how you feel about LeBron and MJ's strenght. Because I think MJ was strong, but not that close to LeBron. I also feel like LBJ and Jordan are similar in the rest, so I'd give LeBron the advantage here.

LeBron is stronger of course, might be just as fast too, but Jordan has a much quicker first step. Much better lateral movements. And much better coordination. As far as vertical goes, it might be a push.

[picc]

I don't really see the point in using per100 possession stats for players.

For teams it makes sense, since most teams average around or close to 100 possessions per game. There's a baseline with a relatively low standard deviation.

But the stat doesn't do anything to help me predict what i'll get from an individual player on a game-to-game basis. Also, player possessions have more variance vis-a-vis playstyle, minutes, team makeup and role than possessions distributed across entire teams do. It could take Player A much more, or much less, time to reach the conclusions of a per100 than it would Player B. So i'm not entirely sure why I should care.

[RSCD3_]

LeBron's handles have deteriorated on a steady decline since he's left Cleveland in 2010.

I agree LeBron at times looks wild when it comes to coordination. No one doubts his top end speed and jumping ability but compare his fluidity and smoothness to Jordan and it's just a different level.

The difference might be muscle related but even then MJ has always just looked a lot more elastic than LeBron out there.


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[GYK]

best player > or = best coach(system)
fantasy draft tomorrow in the real NBA, I might take Lebron 1st but my second pick, no matter who's available, is the best coach.

[Gregoire]

Prime Shaq's dominance is overrated. While he's been an elite player pretty much from the first time he stepped on the court, notice how he didn't start dominating the NBA until the other great centers of the 90's were old and washed up. The starting centers Shaq faced in his 3 finals MVP campaigns were: 33 year old Rik Smits in his final season, 34 year old Dikembe, and Todd MacCulloch who was completely out of the league by '04.

Agreed. Peak Kareem and Hakeem were as dominant as peak Shaq.

[Colbinii]

Westbrook is not a top 5 player in the league, and isn't much better than Wall.

[bondom34]

Strangely I think that about Harden.

[Colbinii]

Strangely I think that about Harden.

Same!

[bondom34]

Strangely I think that about Harden.

Same!

I'd disagree on WB though. And Wall I don't see near either. I think Westbrook's top 5, Harden top 8, Wall top 20ish.

Edit: Though this is probably less unpopular than yours lol.

[Colbinii]

Strangely I think that about Harden.

Same!

I'd disagree on WB though. And Wall I don't see near either. I think Westbrook's top 5, Harden top 8, Wall top 20ish.

Edit: Though this is probably less unpopular than yours lol.

Or more unpopular

[THKNKG]

Let's see...

These are all from my GOAT list:

Bill Russell is GOAT
Jordan and Lebron are practically equal (not completely, but close)
Tim Duncan > Kareem
I don't think there's a massive gap between Hakeem and DRob
Steve Nash is top 20

[BenoUdrihFTL]

Westbrook is not a top 5 player in the league, and isn't much better than Wall.

I had to double check and make sure this post wasn't from when the thread originated in 2015

[clyde21]

Strangely I think that about Harden.

Not strange at all. Harden is closer to 10 than 5.