Isiah Thomas vs Chris Paul

[Hal14]

*a bunch of emotion and hate*

Tell me why nobody wanted Isiah on the Dream Team.

1) You're exaggerating so bad here that it's not really worth responding. NOBODY, really? NOBODY wanted Isiah on the dream team. lol. The only guys who didn't want him on there were Jordan and Pippen.

2) Jordan was on record saying that he would not play on the dream team if Isiah was on the team. Jordan was THE no. 1 guy that the people putting the dream team together knew they wanted, they HAD to have Jordan play on that team. So when Jordan said he wouldn't play if they put Isiah on the team, that was it. Jordan was on the team and Isiah was off.

3) Sure, no other players came to Isiah's defense to back him up, but why would they? After Jordan made it known that he would only play if Isiah wasn't on the team, obviously, Barkley, Bird, Magic, Ewing, all of those guys, they kept their mouth shut. They didn't want to ruffle any feathers.

4) Only reason Jordan and Pippen didn't want him on there is because Isiah snubbed them by leaving the 91 conference finals without shaking their hands. If you look at my post, I'm not talking about what opposing players think of Isiah and Chris Paul. I'm talking about what their teammates and coaches thought about them.

5) Despite the beef Jordan had with Isiah, guess who Jordan ranks as the top 2 point guards of all time? 1) Magic 2) Isiah

6) Many years later, Magic is on record saying that Isiah should have been on that team and that Isiah was better than Stockton.

[Lost92Bricks]

Tell me why nobody wanted Isiah on the Dream Team.

1) You're exaggerating so bad here that it's not really worth responding. NOBODY, really? NOBODY wanted Isiah on the dream team. lol. The only guys who didn't want him on there were Jordan and Pippen.

2) Jordan was on record saying that he would not play on the dream team if Isiah was on the team. Jordan was THE no. 1 guy that the people putting the dream team together knew they wanted, they HAD to have Jordan play on that team. So when Jordan said he wouldn't play if they put Isiah on the team, that was it. Jordan was on the team and Isiah was off.

3) Sure, no other players came to Isiah's defense to back him up, but why would they? After Jordan made it known that he would only play if Isiah wasn't on the team, obviously, Barkley, Bird, Magic, Ewing, all of those guys, they kept their mouth shut. They didn't want to ruffle any feathers.

4) Only reason Jordan and Pippen didn't want him on there is because Isiah snubbed them by leaving the 91 conference finals without shaking their hands. If you look at my post, I'm not talking about what opposing players think of Isiah and Chris Paul. I'm talking about what their teammates and coaches thought about them.

5) Many years later, Magic is on record saying that Isiah should have been on that team and that Isiah was better than Stockton.

Magic didn't want him on the team either. He and Magic had a falling out because Magic felt Isiah was making comments about him behind his back.

The top players on the team really felt strongly about Isiah not being there.

Chuck Daly was Isiah's real coach and Isiah still didn't make the team.

[Hal14]

Tell me why nobody wanted Isiah on the Dream Team.

1) You're exaggerating so bad here that it's not really worth responding. NOBODY, really? NOBODY wanted Isiah on the dream team. lol. The only guys who didn't want him on there were Jordan and Pippen.

2) Jordan was on record saying that he would not play on the dream team if Isiah was on the team. Jordan was THE no. 1 guy that the people putting the dream team together knew they wanted, they HAD to have Jordan play on that team. So when Jordan said he wouldn't play if they put Isiah on the team, that was it. Jordan was on the team and Isiah was off.

3) Sure, no other players came to Isiah's defense to back him up, but why would they? After Jordan made it known that he would only play if Isiah wasn't on the team, obviously, Barkley, Bird, Magic, Ewing, all of those guys, they kept their mouth shut. They didn't want to ruffle any feathers.

4) Only reason Jordan and Pippen didn't want him on there is because Isiah snubbed them by leaving the 91 conference finals without shaking their hands. If you look at my post, I'm not talking about what opposing players think of Isiah and Chris Paul. I'm talking about what their teammates and coaches thought about them.

5) Many years later, Magic is on record saying that Isiah should have been on that team and that Isiah was better than Stockton.

Magic didn't want him on the team either. He and Magic had a falling out because Magic felt Isiah was making comments about him behind his back.

Chuck Daly was Isiah's real coach and Isiah still didn't make the team.

Funny, Jordan is on record saying the 2 best point guards ever are 1) Magic 2) Isiah and Magic is on record saying that Isiah is a top 3 point guard ever, ahead of Stockton and Curry.

Yes, Daly was the coach of the dream team. It didn't matter, though. Like I said, what mattered most was Jordan being on that team. They had to have Jordan for the whole thing to work. Otherwise, what was the point? They mine as well go back to having college players play in the Olympics. Jordan said he wouldn't play if Isiah was on the team. That was that. It didn't matter that Daly was the coach of the dream tea. Isiah's mom could have been the coach - Isiah wasn't going to be on that team.

[Lost92Bricks]

Funny, Jordan is on record saying the 2 best point guards ever are 1) Magic 2) Isiah and Magic is on record saying that Isiah is a top 3 point guard ever, ahead of Stockton and Curry.

Cool, but why were they so hell bent on Isiah not being on the team then?

[JordansBulls]

Funny, Jordan is on record saying the 2 best point guards ever are 1) Magic 2) Isiah and Magic is on record saying that Isiah is a top 3 point guard ever, ahead of Stockton and Curry.

Cool, but why were they so hell bent on Isiah not being on the team then?

Because he never played with Magic and Bird.

[iggymcfrack]

One other thing I'll add.

For those who haven't seen it yet, take a look at Isiah's hall of fame induction speech:

Watch on YouTube

Notice, Chuck Daly is the one who introduces Isiah. The way Daly talks about Isiah when he introduces him, it's as if he was talking about his own son, you can tell the bond they had.

Chris Paul and his coaches? Sure, he didn't have a coach as good as Daly, but he had a pretty one one in Doc Rivers. Doc is considered a "player's coach" who gets along great with MOST of his players, and MOST of his players love him. Who's the first player who comes to mind when you try to think of a player who clashed with Doc? Chris Paul.

Ironically, all indications from reports are that Doc and Rajon Rondo had a really tight bond/relationship...hmm, that's interesting.

Starting around the 16:00 mark in Isiah's speech he talks about his teammates. The camera shows Laimbeer, Dumars and Vinnie Johnson sitting right in the front row. Isiah speaks about fond memories with those guys and talks about their tight bond. Adrian Dantley was in the audience, too.

These guys went to war with Isiah, they did battle, together and they became champions...twice. And they were all there to support Isiah.

What do you think Chris Paul's hall of fame speech will be like? Will any of his coaches or teammates be there? As he gives his speech, will any of them look at him with the pride and respect that Daly, Dumars, Laimbeer and Johnson looked at Isiah with?

If I were to bet, I'd say Chris Paul's hall of fame speech will be a lot like Carmelo Anthony's speech at the 2003 ESPY awards...the one where Anthony thanked himself

I have yet to come across a star NBA player who has pissed off more of his coaches/teammates than Chris Paul. I have also not yet seen another player who has never made it to an NBA Finals, never made it to an ABA finals, never made it to a NCAA finals, only been to 1 conference final (that year wasn't even best player on their team and they weren't even in their prime anymore) yet get ranked so highly on an all-time list. Chris Paul is the only one.

You play to win the game and you play to win championships. You could argue that Isiah had better teammates. But there's no denying that Isiah was a better teammate, a better leader, more coachable and was a guy who was better for team chemistry/better locker room presence. It's easy to make the connection between Isiah's advantages in these areas and the overwhelming advantage he had in team success, despite having a shorter career than Paul.

What other guys are potentially top 50 or maybe even top 40 players of all time who have had really low team success?

Steve Nash? He never made the finals but at least he got the Suns to the conference finals 3 times and was definitely their best player 2 of those 3 seasons and even the third time in 2010 was more of a contributing player to that Suns team than Paul was for the Rockets in 2018.

Dominique Wilkins? Never made it to the finals or even a conference finals, but at least he was the best player on a team that lost in the playoffs to the eventual NBA champion (lost in eastern conference semi-finals to the mighty 86' Celtics..and oh by the way, Wilkins was the NBA scoring champion that year (85-86). And at least with a guy like Wilkins, the whole "oh, he didn't have more team success because he didn't have good enough teammates" argument makes more sense. I can buy that argument more with Wilkins when you consider Wilkins was a good teammate, he was coachable, he never clashed or had any feuds with his teammates or coaches, no off court issues, never caused team chemistry problems, etc. whereas Paul is the opposite in those areas so the whole "he had bad teammates and that's why he didn't win anything" argument doesn't really fly with Paul.

George Gervin? Never made the finals but made it to the conference finals 3 times and was the best player on his team each of those years.

Artis Gilmore? Didn't make an NBA finals, but he won an ABA championship and won ABA finals MVP that year.

Alex English? He never made it to the finals, but at least he was the best player on the 85 Nuggets when they made it to the conference finals and lost to the eventual NBA champion Lakers.

Walt Bellamy? Never made it tot he NBA finals, made it to the western division finals in 1965 and he was the best player on that Bullets team.

Again, Paul has never made the finals, only once made the conference finals and the year he made the conference finals he was past his prime, was not his team's best player, was not an all-star and did not lead his team in any major statistical category (points, rebounds, blocks, minutes, assists, steals, FG%, etc.)

I've also never seen another star player literally punch another player in the groin area in THREE different games, yet people still rank him high on an all time list, skip to the :30 mark of this video to see it:

Watch on YouTube

I like how you’re reaching to find team achievements for guys like George Gervin and Dominique Wilkins and ignoring that at age 32, Chris Paul led the league in RPM while playing on a team that went up 3-2 on the best team in the history of basketball before he got hurt and the team fell apart.

That year, the Rockets were 62-12 with Paul in the lineup and 15-11 without him. That’s an insanely massive difference. If he could have stayed healthy for one more game, he would have had one of the most impressive championships in the history of the sport.

[limbo]

It's moot dealing with people that only argue with narratives, appeal-to-authority fallacies and the end result aka championships...

And even then they display an incredible amount of bias and cognitive dissonance, using a team achievement (title) as a trump card in any sort of argument i.e. doesn't matter that Paul measures out better than Isiah in basically any known individual metric, Isiah won titles, that must mean that even if he scored less efficiently, was a worse shooter, playmaker and defender, he was indeed better because he's got the rings to prove it (completely ignoring the context in which those rings were acquired).

This is already bad enough, but then you realize this 'rationale' is not even being used consistently, because otherwise these same people would be opening threads about how Tony Parker should be ranked above Isiah... Not only that, but since Parker has 4 rings, there's no reason he should be behind any PG on an all-time list, outside of like Magic and Bob Cousy... Isiah isn't even in the same stratosphere as Parker 4 > 2 after all, math doesn't lie.

[Hal14]

One other thing I'll add.

For those who haven't seen it yet, take a look at Isiah's hall of fame induction speech:

Watch on YouTube

Notice, Chuck Daly is the one who introduces Isiah. The way Daly talks about Isiah when he introduces him, it's as if he was talking about his own son, you can tell the bond they had.

Chris Paul and his coaches? Sure, he didn't have a coach as good as Daly, but he had a pretty one one in Doc Rivers. Doc is considered a "player's coach" who gets along great with MOST of his players, and MOST of his players love him. Who's the first player who comes to mind when you try to think of a player who clashed with Doc? Chris Paul.

Ironically, all indications from reports are that Doc and Rajon Rondo had a really tight bond/relationship...hmm, that's interesting.

Starting around the 16:00 mark in Isiah's speech he talks about his teammates. The camera shows Laimbeer, Dumars and Vinnie Johnson sitting right in the front row. Isiah speaks about fond memories with those guys and talks about their tight bond. Adrian Dantley was in the audience, too.

These guys went to war with Isiah, they did battle, together and they became champions...twice. And they were all there to support Isiah.

What do you think Chris Paul's hall of fame speech will be like? Will any of his coaches or teammates be there? As he gives his speech, will any of them look at him with the pride and respect that Daly, Dumars, Laimbeer and Johnson looked at Isiah with?

If I were to bet, I'd say Chris Paul's hall of fame speech will be a lot like Carmelo Anthony's speech at the 2003 ESPY awards...the one where Anthony thanked himself

I have yet to come across a star NBA player who has pissed off more of his coaches/teammates than Chris Paul. I have also not yet seen another player who has never made it to an NBA Finals, never made it to an ABA finals, never made it to a NCAA finals, only been to 1 conference final (that year wasn't even best player on their team and they weren't even in their prime anymore) yet get ranked so highly on an all-time list. Chris Paul is the only one.

You play to win the game and you play to win championships. You could argue that Isiah had better teammates. But there's no denying that Isiah was a better teammate, a better leader, more coachable and was a guy who was better for team chemistry/better locker room presence. It's easy to make the connection between Isiah's advantages in these areas and the overwhelming advantage he had in team success, despite having a shorter career than Paul.

What other guys are potentially top 50 or maybe even top 40 players of all time who have had really low team success?

Steve Nash? He never made the finals but at least he got the Suns to the conference finals 3 times and was definitely their best player 2 of those 3 seasons and even the third time in 2010 was more of a contributing player to that Suns team than Paul was for the Rockets in 2018.

Dominique Wilkins? Never made it to the finals or even a conference finals, but at least he was the best player on a team that lost in the playoffs to the eventual NBA champion (lost in eastern conference semi-finals to the mighty 86' Celtics..and oh by the way, Wilkins was the NBA scoring champion that year (85-86). And at least with a guy like Wilkins, the whole "oh, he didn't have more team success because he didn't have good enough teammates" argument makes more sense. I can buy that argument more with Wilkins when you consider Wilkins was a good teammate, he was coachable, he never clashed or had any feuds with his teammates or coaches, no off court issues, never caused team chemistry problems, etc. whereas Paul is the opposite in those areas so the whole "he had bad teammates and that's why he didn't win anything" argument doesn't really fly with Paul.

George Gervin? Never made the finals but made it to the conference finals 3 times and was the best player on his team each of those years.

Artis Gilmore? Didn't make an NBA finals, but he won an ABA championship and won ABA finals MVP that year.

Alex English? He never made it to the finals, but at least he was the best player on the 85 Nuggets when they made it to the conference finals and lost to the eventual NBA champion Lakers.

Walt Bellamy? Never made it tot he NBA finals, made it to the western division finals in 1965 and he was the best player on that Bullets team.

Again, Paul has never made the finals, only once made the conference finals and the year he made the conference finals he was past his prime, was not his team's best player, was not an all-star and did not lead his team in any major statistical category (points, rebounds, blocks, minutes, assists, steals, FG%, etc.)

I've also never seen another star player literally punch another player in the groin area in THREE different games, yet people still rank him high on an all time list, skip to the :30 mark of this video to see it:

Watch on YouTube

I like how you’re reaching to find team achievements for guys like George Gervin and Dominique Wilkins and ignoring that at age 32, Chris Paul led the league in RPM while playing on a team that went up 3-2 on the best team in the history of basketball before he got hurt and the team fell apart.

That year, the Rockets were 62-12 with Paul in the lineup and 15-11 without him. That’s an insanely massive difference. If he could have stayed healthy for one more game, he would have had one of the most impressive championships in the history of the sport.

Huh?

I assume you're talking about 2017-2018. Chris Paul was not an all-star that year. He didn't make all NBA first team, 2nd team or 3rd team. He did not lead his team in any major statistical category. Not points, not rebounds, not blocks, not FG%, not assists, not steals.

You're making lots of assumptions here. You're just assuming that if Paul played in either game 6 or 7 that the Rockets would win? Hmm, going into game 6, the Rockets won their 3 games that series by an average of 9.6 points. The Warriors won their 2 games by an average of 27 points. That's not even close! Also, the warriors took games 6 and 7 by an average margin of victory of 19 points. I could see if at least one of those games was a nail biter you could MAYBE argue that a healthy Paul would have made the difference, but you're reaching here.

You're also assuming that if the Rockets beat the Warriors that they would have beaten the Cavs in the finals..another leap. I mean, the Rockets probably would have won, but we'll never know. Especially since up Paul had never even never won more than 1 playoff series in the same season prior to 2018, so now we're going to make the leap and say that he wins 4 playoff series in the same season?

[Hal14]

It's moot dealing with people that only argue with narratives, appeal-to-authority fallacies and the end result aka championships...

And even then they display an incredible amount of bias and cognitive dissonance, using a team achievement (title) as a trump card in any sort of argument i.e. doesn't matter that Paul measures out better than Isiah in basically any known individual metric, Isiah won titles, that must mean that even if he scored less efficiently, was a worse shooter, playmaker and defender, he was indeed better because he's got the rings to prove it (completely ignoring the context in which those rings were acquired).

This is already bad enough, but then you realize this 'rationale' is not even being used consistently, because otherwise these same people would be opening threads about how Tony Parker should be ranked above Isiah... Not only that, but since Parker has 4 rings, there's no reason he should be behind any PG on an all-time list, outside of like Magic and Bob Cousy... Isiah isn't even in the same stratosphere as Parker 4 > 2 after all, math doesn't lie.

Such an amateurish post. No one is saying rings are the be all end all.

[prophet_of_rage]

Funny, Jordan is on record saying the 2 best point guards ever are 1) Magic 2) Isiah and Magic is on record saying that Isiah is a top 3 point guard ever, ahead of Stockton and Curry.

Cool, but why were they so hell bent on Isiah not being on the team then?

Because they hated him.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[limbo]

Such an amateurish post. No one is saying rings are the be all end all.

Bruv, it's been 17 pages and the best argument you've come up as to why Isiah is better than Paul (when he literally does everything DEMONSTRABLY worse on the basketball court) is because 1.he won (while completely ignoring context to why HIS TEAM won), 2. Jordan or *insert ex NBA player* said so, 3. muh intangibles, 4. YouTube highlight video...

Now you've literally ran out of trolling ideas and started to predict what Paul's HOF speech will be like and how that will somehow expose his lack of leadership that caused him to not be NBA champion in his career or something...

This is beyond pathetic at this point. I'm out.

[wutevahung]

One other thing I'll add.

For those who haven't seen it yet, take a look at Isiah's hall of fame induction speech:

Watch on YouTube

Notice, Chuck Daly is the one who introduces Isiah. The way Daly talks about Isiah when he introduces him, it's as if he was talking about his own son, you can tell the bond they had.

Chris Paul and his coaches? Sure, he didn't have a coach as good as Daly, but he had a pretty one one in Doc Rivers. Doc is considered a "player's coach" who gets along great with MOST of his players, and MOST of his players love him. Who's the first player who comes to mind when you try to think of a player who clashed with Doc? Chris Paul.

Ironically, all indications from reports are that Doc and Rajon Rondo had a really tight bond/relationship...hmm, that's interesting.

Starting around the 16:00 mark in Isiah's speech he talks about his teammates. The camera shows Laimbeer, Dumars and Vinnie Johnson sitting right in the front row. Isiah speaks about fond memories with those guys and talks about their tight bond. Adrian Dantley was in the audience, too.

These guys went to war with Isiah, they did battle, together and they became champions...twice. And they were all there to support Isiah.

What do you think Chris Paul's hall of fame speech will be like? Will any of his coaches or teammates be there? As he gives his speech, will any of them look at him with the pride and respect that Daly, Dumars, Laimbeer and Johnson looked at Isiah with?

If I were to bet, I'd say Chris Paul's hall of fame speech will be a lot like Carmelo Anthony's speech at the 2003 ESPY awards...the one where Anthony thanked himself

I have yet to come across a star NBA player who has pissed off more of his coaches/teammates than Chris Paul. I have also not yet seen another player who has never made it to an NBA Finals, never made it to an ABA finals, never made it to a NCAA finals, only been to 1 conference final (that year wasn't even best player on their team and they weren't even in their prime anymore) yet get ranked so highly on an all-time list. Chris Paul is the only one.

You play to win the game and you play to win championships. You could argue that Isiah had better teammates. But there's no denying that Isiah was a better teammate, a better leader, more coachable and was a guy who was better for team chemistry/better locker room presence. It's easy to make the connection between Isiah's advantages in these areas and the overwhelming advantage he had in team success, despite having a shorter career than Paul.

What other guys are potentially top 50 or maybe even top 40 players of all time who have had really low team success?

Steve Nash? He never made the finals but at least he got the Suns to the conference finals 3 times and was definitely their best player 2 of those 3 seasons and even the third time in 2010 was more of a contributing player to that Suns team than Paul was for the Rockets in 2018.

Dominique Wilkins? Never made it to the finals or even a conference finals, but at least he was the best player on a team that lost in the playoffs to the eventual NBA champion (lost in eastern conference semi-finals to the mighty 86' Celtics..and oh by the way, Wilkins was the NBA scoring champion that year (85-86). And at least with a guy like Wilkins, the whole "oh, he didn't have more team success because he didn't have good enough teammates" argument makes more sense. I can buy that argument more with Wilkins when you consider Wilkins was a good teammate, he was coachable, he never clashed or had any feuds with his teammates or coaches, no off court issues, never caused team chemistry problems, etc. whereas Paul is the opposite in those areas so the whole "he had bad teammates and that's why he didn't win anything" argument doesn't really fly with Paul.

George Gervin? Never made the finals but made it to the conference finals 3 times and was the best player on his team each of those years.

Artis Gilmore? Didn't make an NBA finals, but he won an ABA championship and won ABA finals MVP that year.

Alex English? He never made it to the finals, but at least he was the best player on the 85 Nuggets when they made it to the conference finals and lost to the eventual NBA champion Lakers.

Walt Bellamy? Never made it tot he NBA finals, made it to the western division finals in 1965 and he was the best player on that Bullets team.

Again, Paul has never made the finals, only once made the conference finals and the year he made the conference finals he was past his prime, was not his team's best player, was not an all-star and did not lead his team in any major statistical category (points, rebounds, blocks, minutes, assists, steals, FG%, etc.)

I've also never seen another star player literally punch another player in the groin area in THREE different games, yet people still rank him high on an all time list, skip to the :30 mark of this video to see it:

Watch on YouTube

I like how you’re reaching to find team achievements for guys like George Gervin and Dominique Wilkins and ignoring that at age 32, Chris Paul led the league in RPM while playing on a team that went up 3-2 on the best team in the history of basketball before he got hurt and the team fell apart.

That year, the Rockets were 62-12 with Paul in the lineup and 15-11 without him. That’s an insanely massive difference. If he could have stayed healthy for one more game, he would have had one of the most impressive championships in the history of the sport.

I liked how he imagined a whole sequence for CP's HOF speech and made fun of him for it. Reminded me of that one time when my ex got mad at me because I cheated on her in her dream.

[Cavsfansince84]

Funny, Jordan is on record saying the 2 best point guards ever are 1) Magic 2) Isiah and Magic is on record saying that Isiah is a top 3 point guard ever, ahead of Stockton and Curry.

Cool, but why were they so hell bent on Isiah not being on the team then?

Are you really that unaware of all the stuff that transpired between the Pistons and Bulls from 88-91? Back then feuds between teams were very real and MJ above pretty much any other player in nba history is known for holding grudges. He wouldn't even talk to Barkley for years after Barkley criticized him one time as a gm on tv. Pippen wouldn't even allow Rodman to become a Bull until he heard an apology from him for shoving him under the basket during a playoff game 8 years earlier. Its not like they needed Isiah to win the gold or something. They didn't need him at all which is why it was so easy to leave him off. Isiah's hadn't made an all nba team in 2-3 years by then either so at the time he probably didn't truly deserve a spot much like you could argue that Bird didn't. Based on stature within the sport though he deserved a spot as did Bird.

[Lost92Bricks]

Are you really that unaware of all the stuff that transpired between the Pistons and Bulls from 88-91? Back then feuds between teams were very real and MJ above pretty much any other player in nba history is known for holding grudges. He wouldn't even talk to Barkley for years after Barkley criticized him one time as a gm on tv. Pippen wouldn't even allow Rodman to become a Bull until he heard an apology from him for shoving him under the basket during a playoff game 8 years earlier. Its not like they needed Isiah to win the gold or something. They didn't need him at all which is why it was so easy to leave him off. Isiah's hadn't made an all nba team in 2-3 years by then either so at the time he probably didn't truly deserve a spot much like you could argue that Bird didn't. Based on stature within the sport though he deserved a spot as did Bird.

I'm talking more about Magic. Even Magic didn't want Isiah on the team.

[Cavsfansince84]

Are you really that unaware of all the stuff that transpired between the Pistons and Bulls from 88-91? Back then feuds between teams were very real and MJ above pretty much any other player in nba history is known for holding grudges. He wouldn't even talk to Barkley for years after Barkley criticized him one time as a gm on tv. Pippen wouldn't even allow Rodman to become a Bull until he heard an apology from him for shoving him under the basket during a playoff game 8 years earlier. Its not like they needed Isiah to win the gold or something. They didn't need him at all which is why it was so easy to leave him off. Isiah's hadn't made an all nba team in 2-3 years by then either so at the time he probably didn't truly deserve a spot much like you could argue that Bird didn't. Based on stature within the sport though he deserved a spot as did Bird.

I'm talking more about Magic. Even Magic didn't want Isiah on the team.

Magic and Isiah had also had a falling out prior to then as well. Isiah wasn't well liked by fellow players just as the Bad Boys weren't liked in general. Isiah was known for being a sort of prickly guy who was ultra competitive but that's pretty much exactly how MJ is with the key difference being that MJ was the biggest star in the sporting world by then while Isiah was more like a top 20 player slightly past his prime.

[iggymcfrack]

One other thing I'll add.

For those who haven't seen it yet, take a look at Isiah's hall of fame induction speech:

Watch on YouTube

Notice, Chuck Daly is the one who introduces Isiah. The way Daly talks about Isiah when he introduces him, it's as if he was talking about his own son, you can tell the bond they had.

Chris Paul and his coaches? Sure, he didn't have a coach as good as Daly, but he had a pretty one one in Doc Rivers. Doc is considered a "player's coach" who gets along great with MOST of his players, and MOST of his players love him. Who's the first player who comes to mind when you try to think of a player who clashed with Doc? Chris Paul.

Ironically, all indications from reports are that Doc and Rajon Rondo had a really tight bond/relationship...hmm, that's interesting.

Starting around the 16:00 mark in Isiah's speech he talks about his teammates. The camera shows Laimbeer, Dumars and Vinnie Johnson sitting right in the front row. Isiah speaks about fond memories with those guys and talks about their tight bond. Adrian Dantley was in the audience, too.

These guys went to war with Isiah, they did battle, together and they became champions...twice. And they were all there to support Isiah.

What do you think Chris Paul's hall of fame speech will be like? Will any of his coaches or teammates be there? As he gives his speech, will any of them look at him with the pride and respect that Daly, Dumars, Laimbeer and Johnson looked at Isiah with?

If I were to bet, I'd say Chris Paul's hall of fame speech will be a lot like Carmelo Anthony's speech at the 2003 ESPY awards...the one where Anthony thanked himself

I have yet to come across a star NBA player who has pissed off more of his coaches/teammates than Chris Paul. I have also not yet seen another player who has never made it to an NBA Finals, never made it to an ABA finals, never made it to a NCAA finals, only been to 1 conference final (that year wasn't even best player on their team and they weren't even in their prime anymore) yet get ranked so highly on an all-time list. Chris Paul is the only one.

You play to win the game and you play to win championships. You could argue that Isiah had better teammates. But there's no denying that Isiah was a better teammate, a better leader, more coachable and was a guy who was better for team chemistry/better locker room presence. It's easy to make the connection between Isiah's advantages in these areas and the overwhelming advantage he had in team success, despite having a shorter career than Paul.

What other guys are potentially top 50 or maybe even top 40 players of all time who have had really low team success?

Steve Nash? He never made the finals but at least he got the Suns to the conference finals 3 times and was definitely their best player 2 of those 3 seasons and even the third time in 2010 was more of a contributing player to that Suns team than Paul was for the Rockets in 2018.

Dominique Wilkins? Never made it to the finals or even a conference finals, but at least he was the best player on a team that lost in the playoffs to the eventual NBA champion (lost in eastern conference semi-finals to the mighty 86' Celtics..and oh by the way, Wilkins was the NBA scoring champion that year (85-86). And at least with a guy like Wilkins, the whole "oh, he didn't have more team success because he didn't have good enough teammates" argument makes more sense. I can buy that argument more with Wilkins when you consider Wilkins was a good teammate, he was coachable, he never clashed or had any feuds with his teammates or coaches, no off court issues, never caused team chemistry problems, etc. whereas Paul is the opposite in those areas so the whole "he had bad teammates and that's why he didn't win anything" argument doesn't really fly with Paul.

George Gervin? Never made the finals but made it to the conference finals 3 times and was the best player on his team each of those years.

Artis Gilmore? Didn't make an NBA finals, but he won an ABA championship and won ABA finals MVP that year.

Alex English? He never made it to the finals, but at least he was the best player on the 85 Nuggets when they made it to the conference finals and lost to the eventual NBA champion Lakers.

Walt Bellamy? Never made it tot he NBA finals, made it to the western division finals in 1965 and he was the best player on that Bullets team.

Again, Paul has never made the finals, only once made the conference finals and the year he made the conference finals he was past his prime, was not his team's best player, was not an all-star and did not lead his team in any major statistical category (points, rebounds, blocks, minutes, assists, steals, FG%, etc.)

I've also never seen another star player literally punch another player in the groin area in THREE different games, yet people still rank him high on an all time list, skip to the :30 mark of this video to see it:

Watch on YouTube

I like how you’re reaching to find team achievements for guys like George Gervin and Dominique Wilkins and ignoring that at age 32, Chris Paul led the league in RPM while playing on a team that went up 3-2 on the best team in the history of basketball before he got hurt and the team fell apart.

That year, the Rockets were 62-12 with Paul in the lineup and 15-11 without him. That’s an insanely massive difference. If he could have stayed healthy for one more game, he would have had one of the most impressive championships in the history of the sport.

Huh?

I assume you're talking about 2017-2018. Chris Paul was not an all-star that year. He didn't make all NBA first team, 2nd team or 3rd team. He did not lead his team in any major statistical category. Not points, not rebounds, not blocks, not FG%, not assists, not steals.

You're making lots of assumptions here. You're just assuming that if Paul played in either game 6 or 7 that the Rockets would win? Hmm, going into game 6, the Rockets won their 3 games that series by an average of 9.6 points. The Warriors won their 2 games by an average of 27 points. That's not even close! Also, the warriors took games 6 and 7 by an average margin of victory of 19 points. I could see if at least one of those games was a nail biter you could MAYBE argue that a healthy Paul would have made the difference, but you're reaching here.

You're also assuming that if the Rockets beat the Warriors that they would have beaten the Cavs in the finals..another leap. I mean, the Rockets probably would have won, but we'll never know. Especially since up Paul had never even never won more than 1 playoff series in the same season prior to 2018, so now we're going to make the leap and say that he wins 4 playoff series in the same season?

He led the entire NBA in RPM that year, probably the best one number stat to determine the value of a player and is much more meaningful than if he had led the league in scoring or assists. He absolutely should have been an all-star and been all-NBA but he wasn’t due to a combination of voters underrating him and the fact that he only played 58 regular season games.


It was a real debate that year who was the more valuable player between Harden and Paul. Harden was the primary scorer and ball-handler when they were both on the floor together, but the Paul w/o Harden lineups outscored the opposition at a prodigious rate and Paul was the best defensive point guard in the entire league. He wasn’t the purely supporting player he would become the following season.

[Hal14]

I like how you’re reaching to find team achievements for guys like George Gervin and Dominique Wilkins and ignoring that at age 32, Chris Paul led the league in RPM while playing on a team that went up 3-2 on the best team in the history of basketball before he got hurt and the team fell apart.

That year, the Rockets were 62-12 with Paul in the lineup and 15-11 without him. That’s an insanely massive difference. If he could have stayed healthy for one more game, he would have had one of the most impressive championships in the history of the sport.

Huh?

I assume you're talking about 2017-2018. Chris Paul was not an all-star that year. He didn't make all NBA first team, 2nd team or 3rd team. He did not lead his team in any major statistical category. Not points, not rebounds, not blocks, not FG%, not assists, not steals.

You're making lots of assumptions here. You're just assuming that if Paul played in either game 6 or 7 that the Rockets would win? Hmm, going into game 6, the Rockets won their 3 games that series by an average of 9.6 points. The Warriors won their 2 games by an average of 27 points. That's not even close! Also, the warriors took games 6 and 7 by an average margin of victory of 19 points. I could see if at least one of those games was a nail biter you could MAYBE argue that a healthy Paul would have made the difference, but you're reaching here.

You're also assuming that if the Rockets beat the Warriors that they would have beaten the Cavs in the finals..another leap. I mean, the Rockets probably would have won, but we'll never know. Especially since up Paul had never even never won more than 1 playoff series in the same season prior to 2018, so now we're going to make the leap and say that he wins 4 playoff series in the same season?

He led the entire NBA in RPM that year, probably the best one number stat to determine the value of a player and is much more meaningful than if he had led the league in scoring or assists. He absolutely should have been an all-star and been all-NBA but he wasn’t due to a combination of voters underrating him and the fact that he only played 58 regular season games.


It was a real debate that year who was the more valuable player between Harden and Paul. Harden was the primary scorer and ball-handler when they were both on the floor together, but the Paul w/o Harden lineups outscored the opposition at a prodigious rate and Paul was the best defensive point guard in the entire league. He wasn’t the purely supporting player he would become the following season.

You're really reaching here. Paul doesn't make all star team, doesn't make all nba, doesn't make all defense, doesn't lead his team in any statistical category and sat out 24 games but you think that it was debatable whether he was better that season than Harden, who was the MVP of the league?

I've gotta ask, are you Chris Paul's mother?

[iggymcfrack]

Huh?

I assume you're talking about 2017-2018. Chris Paul was not an all-star that year. He didn't make all NBA first team, 2nd team or 3rd team. He did not lead his team in any major statistical category. Not points, not rebounds, not blocks, not FG%, not assists, not steals.

You're making lots of assumptions here. You're just assuming that if Paul played in either game 6 or 7 that the Rockets would win? Hmm, going into game 6, the Rockets won their 3 games that series by an average of 9.6 points. The Warriors won their 2 games by an average of 27 points. That's not even close! Also, the warriors took games 6 and 7 by an average margin of victory of 19 points. I could see if at least one of those games was a nail biter you could MAYBE argue that a healthy Paul would have made the difference, but you're reaching here.

You're also assuming that if the Rockets beat the Warriors that they would have beaten the Cavs in the finals..another leap. I mean, the Rockets probably would have won, but we'll never know. Especially since up Paul had never even never won more than 1 playoff series in the same season prior to 2018, so now we're going to make the leap and say that he wins 4 playoff series in the same season?

He led the entire NBA in RPM that year, probably the best one number stat to determine the value of a player and is much more meaningful than if he had led the league in scoring or assists. He absolutely should have been an all-star and been all-NBA but he wasn’t due to a combination of voters underrating him and the fact that he only played 58 regular season games.


It was a real debate that year who was the more valuable player between Harden and Paul. Harden was the primary scorer and ball-handler when they were both on the floor together, but the Paul w/o Harden lineups outscored the opposition at a prodigious rate and Paul was the best defensive point guard in the entire league. He wasn’t the purely supporting player he would become the following season.

You're really reaching here. Paul doesn't make all star team, doesn't make all nba, doesn't make all defense, doesn't lead his team in any statistical category and sat out 24 games but you think that it was debatable whether he was better that season than Harden, who was the MVP of the league?

I've gotta ask, are you Chris Paul's mother?

I’m saying when they were both playing. The reason that Paul didn’t get any of those awards is that he missed 24 games.

[prophet_of_rage]

Are you really that unaware of all the stuff that transpired between the Pistons and Bulls from 88-91? Back then feuds between teams were very real and MJ above pretty much any other player in nba history is known for holding grudges. He wouldn't even talk to Barkley for years after Barkley criticized him one time as a gm on tv. Pippen wouldn't even allow Rodman to become a Bull until he heard an apology from him for shoving him under the basket during a playoff game 8 years earlier. Its not like they needed Isiah to win the gold or something. They didn't need him at all which is why it was so easy to leave him off. Isiah's hadn't made an all nba team in 2-3 years by then either so at the time he probably didn't truly deserve a spot much like you could argue that Bird didn't. Based on stature within the sport though he deserved a spot as did Bird.

I'm talking more about Magic. Even Magic didn't want Isiah on the team.

Isiah said Magic was gay.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[Bidofo]

Spoiler:

This should be obvious but people often confuse cause and effect when it comes to winning. You aren't better because you win. You win because you are a better player (assuming equal level of supporting cast, opponents and luck). Bill Russell didn't win 11 rings because he was born a winner. Russell won a lot because he was by far the greatest defender ever. Jordan didn't go 6/6 because he was competitively obsessed with winning and refused to lose. His team success came because he was the GOAT scorer and was elite in other areas of the game too. Calling a player better because he is a "winner" is just a lazy way to count rings without actually evaluating what makes that player great.

Isiah has 2 rings but what it is about him that actually made the Pistons win? Was it because Isiah was a top scorer, rebounder, playmaker, shooter or defender? There is a lot of talk about Isiah being a "winner" but none of his supporters ever go into discussing his actual level of play during the title winning years. Why? Because a closer look will show he was not as good a player as a few other all time great PGs who didn't win as much as he did. Isiah fans will argue he was sacrificing his individual play for his team's success but exactly how did his sacrifice help the Pistons? Did Isiah sacrifice offensive volume to elevate his team's offense? No, because his efficiency didn't improve on lower volume as one would usually expect and the Pistons' offense was worse during the title years than before. Did Isiah sacrifice offense for more defense then? Maybe, but he was never a top defensive guard and the addition of Rodman, Dumars, Mahorn and John Salley probably had more to do with the Pistons' defensive improvement in the late 80s. Isiah making sacrifices for his team makes for a better storyline but the reality is that Pistons rose to championship level because the improvements in Isiah's supporting cast more than offset his decline from his peak in the mid-80s. Isiah's argument begins and ends with his rings because he doesn't really have much of an argument otherwise to be a top 5 point guard of all time (unless anybody wants to go ahead and make a case for his peak being that high because he sure doesn't have the longevity for it).

And since it is a popular narrative to hype up Isiah as a legendary small guard who beat Magic/Bird/Jordan in David v Goliath fashion, let's look at who the Pistons actually beat to win their two titles:

• 89 Celtics without Bird (injured) and Ainge (traded). DJ missed the end of the season due to ankle injury and limped his way to 2.7 ppg in the series because the Celtics had zero guard depth.
• 89 Bucks without two of their best players in Cummings and Pressey. They went 6-9 in the regular season without Pressey.
• 89 Bulls. 47 wins, +2.1 SRS. They have MJ but the Bulls as a team (16 games behind) were not a contender yet.
• 89 Lakers without Byron Scott and Magic for half the series. By G4, LA was starting 42 year old Kareem, AC Green, Worthy, Cooper and Tony Campbell. Minus Worthy, that starting lineup is arguably worse than Detroit's bench.

• 90 Pacers. 42 wins, -0.2 SRS. Poor defense and easy first round fodder.
• 90 Knicks. 45 wins, +0.8 SRS. Ewing one man team that went 10-20 to finish the regular season after a mid-season trade.
• 90 Bulls. Title contender and healthy. Dumars played like a superstar in the Piston's first three wins while Isiah disappeared (26ppg on 63% TS vs 8ppg on 36% TS). That's no typo - Pistons won 3 games against MJ despite Isiah scoring only 8.3 ppg on 36% TS.
• 90 Blazers. Title contender and healthy. Impressive series by Isiah destroying Terry Porter who was an All Star level point guard.

All in all, that's 3 non contenders at 47 or less wins, 3 opponents missing multiple starters (all in one playoffs), a series against the Jordan Bulls where Isiah's failures got completely overlooked because of Dumars going hot, and a series against the Blazers where Isiah played excellent in. For someone whose career legacy rests heavily on these two postseasons, it's really not that notable of a run. Luckily for Isiah though, most NBA fans don't really care about basketball history and will just repeat whatever they hear on social media, which is something like "Isiah beat Magic/Bird/Jordan in the toughest era of all time so he must be top 20 all time!!"

I can’t wait for posts like this and others that bring up very valid points and criticisms of the pro-Isiah side to be completely ignored, resulting in the same people posting the same outdated tropes about Thomas’ career the next time he’s mentioned.

You don’t need a foot in this debate to see which side is making a much more convincing argument. Typically when you get to the point of “Basketball is not all about stats”/“Actually watch the game”, you’re kind of on your last legs and lose much credibility. That’s just me though...

Nothing to see here, just quoting myself because I was very much right.