Who is in your GOAT tier?

[falcolombardi]

I don't think NO-KG-AI was saying that teams today should go all out in the regular season to prove something. Resting for the postseason is fine and probably the optimal strategy. The point is that a team that wins 53 games and then a championship isn't the same as a team that wins 67 games and then a championship. The latter is much more difficult and should be appreciated more.

When a player misses say 10 regular season games every season, takes off second nights of back-to-back etc. plays shortened seasons due to lockouts/Covid/whatever it just doesn't seem right to value that the same way as another season where a player plays all 82 games with highest minutes to boot. It's not a Lebron thing. All modern players suffer in all-time comparisons due to having seasons that feel incomplete. I wonder what kind of postseason numbers Jordan and all other past legends would put up if they had the luxury to take the foot off the gas pedal in the regular season. It's a relevant question to ponder. Modern and past stars aren't competing on an equal footing from a load management perspective. The NBA 8 years ago reduced the minimum games requirement for scoring titles and other statistical achievements. These days you can win a scoring title playing 58 games. Before 2014 you had to play 70 games. A scoring title now isn't even the same thing it used to be back then. 58 games is a bit over two thirds of the season. And that's just one example.

As for proving things to fans, excuse me but they should. The NBA wouldn't exist if not for the fans. People pay big money to go watch an NBA game. Imagine paying $600 for you and your girl to go watch a Lakers - Nets game and an hour before the game you find out Lebron is sitting out the game resting a sore ankle and Durant isn't playing because it's the 2nd night of a back to back and he's supposedly resting a sore shoulder. You'd feel cheated and rightfully so.

Would be playing themselves against more rested rivals too

[penbeast0]

Of course then the guys who watched basketball in the 60s would say, yeah, well if Wilt had taken off minutes to rest like Jordan did rather than playing at least one season where he averaged over 48 minutes a game while carrying such an offensive load that he scored 50+ per game, he could have been far more effective per minute too. Players that play bigger loads should get some credit for it; discounting some of Kawhi's effectiveness by assuming a league average reserve wing has to play a lot of minutes covering his inability to be out there every night.

[AEnigma]

Jordan’s minutes per game ranks by season: 4th, injured, 3rd, 1st, 1st, 4th, 26th (the season everyone picks as his peak…), 6th, 6th, retired, partially retired, 19th, 28th, 17th, retired again. To his credit, in total minutes played, he was top three in his first five full seasons (three years leading the league), and top twenty for the six championships years — but in those championship years, he never finished higher than ninth.

Lebron, on the other hand? In minutes per game, he finished: 10th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 13th, 5th, 6th, 6th, 8th, 6th, 5th, 12th, 1st, 1st, injured (was roughly 7th across 55 games), 17th, injured (but would not have made top 30), 20th. In total minutes played it does fall somewhat, but he still has three years leading the league in minutes played (same as Jordan), another second place finish (same as Jordan), six more top ten finishes (to Jordan’s three), and five more top twenty finishes (to Jordan’s four).

The idea that Jordan was playing more relative to his league environment is just a flat out incorrect one, and their minutes per game both in the regular season and the postseason are pretty much identical even without that adjustment! I am sure you could do something similar with Russell and Wilt and Kareem relative to their league environments too, but per usual, the Jordan mythos marches on unabated.

[penbeast0]

That was sort of my point with the Wilt comp, that you are looking at it "relative to their league environments" while others are looking at a flat minutes played.

[AEnigma]

That was sort of my point with the Wilt comp, that you are looking at it "relative to their league environments" while others are looking at a flat minutes played.

Their minute averages are nearly identical. So really people are just gesturing at Jordan averaging like 81 games played in any given healthy season while Lebron averages more like 77 in any given prime season — even though Jordan was substantially more likely to miss the bulk of a season and consequently only has 11 meaningfully valuable regular seasons to his name.

[Djoker]

I don't think NO-KG-AI was saying that teams today should go all out in the regular season to prove something. Resting for the postseason is fine and probably the optimal strategy. The point is that a team that wins 53 games and then a championship isn't the same as a team that wins 67 games and then a championship. The latter is much more difficult and should be appreciated more.

When a player misses say 10 regular season games every season, takes off second nights of back-to-back etc. plays shortened seasons due to lockouts/Covid/whatever it just doesn't seem right to value that the same way as another season where a player plays all 82 games with highest minutes to boot. It's not a Lebron thing. All modern players suffer in all-time comparisons due to having seasons that feel incomplete. I wonder what kind of postseason numbers Jordan and all other past legends would put up if they had the luxury to take the foot off the gas pedal in the regular season. It's a relevant question to ponder. Modern and past stars aren't competing on an equal footing from a load management perspective. The NBA 8 years ago reduced the minimum games requirement for scoring titles and other statistical achievements. These days you can win a scoring title playing 58 games. Before 2014 you had to play 70 games. A scoring title now isn't even the same thing it used to be back then. 58 games is a bit over two thirds of the season. And that's just one example.

As for proving things to fans, excuse me but they should. The NBA wouldn't exist if not for the fans. People pay big money to go watch an NBA game. Imagine paying $600 for you and your girl to go watch a Lakers - Nets game and an hour before the game you find out Lebron is sitting out the game resting a sore ankle and Durant isn't playing because it's the 2nd night of a back to back and he's supposedly resting a sore shoulder. You'd feel cheated and rightfully so.

Would be playing themselves against more rested rivals too

Considering most players in the NBA are role players who play limited minutes anyways, your point isn't relevant. It's the stars that benefit most from load management not role players who play 20 mpg anyways.

[Djoker]

Jordan’s minutes per game ranks by season: 4th, injured, 3rd, 1st, 1st, 4th, 26th (the season everyone picks as his peak…), 6th, 6th, retired, partially retired, 19th, 28th, 17th, retired again. To his credit, in total minutes played, he was top three in his first five full seasons (three years leading the league), and top twenty for the six championships years — but in those championship years, he never finished higher than ninth.

Lebron, on the other hand? In minutes per game, he finished: 10th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 13th, 5th, 6th, 6th, 8th, 6th, 5th, 12th, 1st, 1st, injured (was roughly 7th across 55 games), 17th, injured (but would not have made top 30), 20th. In total minutes played it does fall somewhat, but he still has three years leading the league in minutes played (same as Jordan), another second place finish (same as Jordan), six top ten finishes (to Jordan’s three), and five more top twenty finishes (to Jordan’s four).

The idea that Jordan was playing more relative to his league environment is just a flat out incorrect one, and their minutes per game both in the regular season and the postseason are pretty much identical even without that adjustment! I am sure you could do something similar with Russell and Wilt and Kareem relative to their league environments too, but per usual, the Jordan mythos marches on unabated.

Minutes per game? You do realize that players these days cap out at about 37 mpg. In Jordan's time and until around 2008 that was like 42 mpg. And it's not just the minutes but the missed games, the shortened seasons... It's not just Lebron. It's this whole era of stars that kind of has an asterisk in that regard. These new guys play the fewest games as well as the lowest minutes per game in NBA history.

[AEnigma]

… But not Lebron. Lebron’s career averages are right there with Jordan’s despite playing for a longer period of time and without ever missing entire seasons, in a more schematically developed and higher talent league where it is more normalised for stars to scale their minutes back.

And somehow you guys twist that into relative praise for Jordan.

[falcolombardi]

I don't think NO-KG-AI was saying that teams today should go all out in the regular season to prove something. Resting for the postseason is fine and probably the optimal strategy. The point is that a team that wins 53 games and then a championship isn't the same as a team that wins 67 games and then a championship. The latter is much more difficult and should be appreciated more.

When a player misses say 10 regular season games every season, takes off second nights of back-to-back etc. plays shortened seasons due to lockouts/Covid/whatever it just doesn't seem right to value that the same way as another season where a player plays all 82 games with highest minutes to boot. It's not a Lebron thing. All modern players suffer in all-time comparisons due to having seasons that feel incomplete. I wonder what kind of postseason numbers Jordan and all other past legends would put up if they had the luxury to take the foot off the gas pedal in the regular season. It's a relevant question to ponder. Modern and past stars aren't competing on an equal footing from a load management perspective. The NBA 8 years ago reduced the minimum games requirement for scoring titles and other statistical achievements. These days you can win a scoring title playing 58 games. Before 2014 you had to play 70 games. A scoring title now isn't even the same thing it used to be back then. 58 games is a bit over two thirds of the season. And that's just one example.

As for proving things to fans, excuse me but they should. The NBA wouldn't exist if not for the fans. People pay big money to go watch an NBA game. Imagine paying $600 for you and your girl to go watch a Lakers - Nets game and an hour before the game you find out Lebron is sitting out the game resting a sore ankle and Durant isn't playing because it's the 2nd night of a back to back and he's supposedly resting a sore shoulder. You'd feel cheated and rightfully so.

Would be playing themselves against more rested rivals too

Considering most players in the NBA are role players who play limited minutes anyways, your point isn't relevant. It's the stars that benefit most from load management not role players who play 20 mpg anyways.

The opposite actually

In playoffs bench players play less and starters increase minutes

Another rrason why playoffs are a different game than regular season

[Djoker]

… But not Lebron. Lebron’s career averages are right there with Jordan’s despite playing for a longer period of time and without ever missing entire seasons, in a more schematically developed and higher talent league where it is more normalised for stars to scale their minutes back.

And somehow you guys twist that into relative praise for Jordan.

How about total minutes played in each season? Because total minutes depend on minutes per game and games played and you're kind of dismissing the latter.

[falcolombardi]

Jordan averaged 38.6 mpg in his bulls career, 11 and a half seasons

Lebron averaged 38.0mpg between 2006 and 2020 (15 season sample), if i pick lebron 12 highest minutes season he actually matches jordan mpg in the same amount of seasons played

We dont know if jordan body would have been able to keep up that pace for as long as lebron did either

[falcolombardi]

… But not Lebron. Lebron’s career averages are right there with Jordan’s despite playing for a longer period of time and without ever missing entire seasons, in a more schematically developed and higher talent league where it is more normalised for stars to scale their minutes back.

And somehow you guys twist that into relative praise for Jordan.

How about total minutes played in each season? Because total minutes depend on minutes per game and games played and you're kind of dismissing the latter.

Lebron startes playing nba basketball 3 years earlier so he has much, much more accumulated wear and tear (and the gap becomes huge counting playoffs minutes)

Lebron wins total minutes by a mile

[70sFan]

… But not Lebron. Lebron’s career averages are right there with Jordan’s despite playing for a longer period of time and without ever missing entire seasons, in a more schematically developed and higher talent league where it is more normalised for stars to scale their minutes back.

And somehow you guys twist that into relative praise for Jordan.

How about total minutes played in each season? Because total minutes depend on minutes per game and games played and you're kind of dismissing the latter.

James actually has two higher total minutes seasons than Jordan's career high.

[Djoker]

Ok since you guys are still disputing literal facts I'm just going to post the numbers. Let's just compare their championship seasons in regular season minutes played.

2012 Lebron - 2326 mins
2013 Lebron - 2877 mins
2016 Lebron - 2709 mins
2020 Lebron - 2316 mins

Lebron Average: 2557 mins

1991 Jordan - 3034 mins
1992 Jordan - 3102 mins
1993 Jordan - 3067 mins
1996 Jordan - 3090 mins
1997 Jordan - 3106 mins
1998 Jordan - 3181 mins

Jordan Average: 3097 mins (21% more)

That's a significantly higher load for Jordan in their best seasons.

Overall Lebron has eight 3000+ minute seasons, with six of eight in his first six years from 2004-2009. The others are 2011 and 2018. Jordan has twelve 3000+ minute seasons including 1985, ten straight from 1987-1998 and then one more in 2003.

Lebron from 2012-2022 which is 11 straight seasons averaged 2453 minutes per season. He played an average of 67 games at 36.5 mpg during that span. No one is criticizing Lebron's early career but as the years went on, his loads in the regular season were very small historically compared to his predecessors. That cannot be disputed. Not all of it was load management. Some was legit injuries, some lockouts, some Covid-shortened seasons... Still a reduced load at the end of the day!

[falcolombardi]

Ok since you guys are still disputing literal facts I'm just going to post the numbers. Let's just compare their championship seasons in regular season minutes played.

2012 Lebron - 2326 mins
2013 Lebron - 2877 mins
2016 Lebron - 2709 mins
2020 Lebron - 2316 mins

Lebron Average: 2557 mins

1991 Jordan - 3034 mins
1992 Jordan - 3102 mins
1993 Jordan - 3067 mins
1996 Jordan - 3090 mins
1997 Jordan - 3106 mins
1998 Jordan - 3181 mins

Jordan Average: 3097 mins (21% more)

That's a significantly higher load for Jordan in their best seasons.

Overall Lebron has eight 3000+ minute seasons, with six of eight in his first six years from 2004-2009. The others are 2011 and 2018. Jordan has twelve 3000+ minute seasons including 1985, ten straight from 1987-1998 and then one more in 2003.

Lebron from 2012-2022 which is 11 straight seasons averaged 2453 minutes per season. He played an average of 67 games at 36.5 mpg during that span. No one is criticizing Lebron's early career but as the years went on, his loads in the regular season were very small historically compared to his predecessors. That cannot be disputed. Not all of it was load management. Some was legit injuries, some lockouts, some Covid-shortened seasons... Still a reduced load at the end of the day!

If you are gonna go by total minutes per year you should include 94 and 95 in the equation then or 86 for that matter

It makes no sense to mention 2012-2020 total minutes which were affected by injuries and shortened seasons, but not include 94 and 95 in jordan minutes played across the 91-98 stretch

[AEnigma]

Per usual, when your sole end goal is deification of Jordan, anything goes.

Lebron 2003-18: 44,000 regular season minutes

Jordan 1984-2003: 41,000 regular season minutes

[PaulieWal]

Per usual, when your sole end goal is deification of Jordan, anything goes.

Lebron 2003-18: 44,000 regular season minutes

Jordan 1984-2003: 41,000 regular season minutes

And if you add 2019 and 2020, the gap is even larger. LeBron was still in his prime in 2020, meanwhile MJ was not in his prime during the Wiz 2 years.

[Homer38]

In 2012,the teams had so many back to back because of the lockout.Even at one point they had 3 games in 3 days at one point during the regular season for every team.It was a very hard schedule for every team and despite this,LBJ has missing only 4 games(and 2 of his games was the last 2 of the season) and he won the MVP.
LBJ had also a bigger load in his career that Jordan since he had to be the best scorer, playmaker and defender(and sometimes the best rebounder with the Heat) of his team for his first 15 seasons and that with a lot of minutes

[Djoker]

Ok since you guys are still disputing literal facts I'm just going to post the numbers. Let's just compare their championship seasons in regular season minutes played.

2012 Lebron - 2326 mins
2013 Lebron - 2877 mins
2016 Lebron - 2709 mins
2020 Lebron - 2316 mins

Lebron Average: 2557 mins

1991 Jordan - 3034 mins
1992 Jordan - 3102 mins
1993 Jordan - 3067 mins
1996 Jordan - 3090 mins
1997 Jordan - 3106 mins
1998 Jordan - 3181 mins

Jordan Average: 3097 mins (21% more)

That's a significantly higher load for Jordan in their best seasons.

Overall Lebron has eight 3000+ minute seasons, with six of eight in his first six years from 2004-2009. The others are 2011 and 2018. Jordan has twelve 3000+ minute seasons including 1985, ten straight from 1987-1998 and then one more in 2003.

Lebron from 2012-2022 which is 11 straight seasons averaged 2453 minutes per season. He played an average of 67 games at 36.5 mpg during that span. No one is criticizing Lebron's early career but as the years went on, his loads in the regular season were very small historically compared to his predecessors. That cannot be disputed. Not all of it was load management. Some was legit injuries, some lockouts, some Covid-shortened seasons... Still a reduced load at the end of the day!

If you are gonna go by total minutes per year you should include 94 and 95 in the equation then or 86 for that matter

It makes no sense to mention 2012-2020 total minutes which were affected by injuries and shortened seasons, but not include 94 and 95 in jordan minutes played across the 91-98 stretch

Other than 2009 and 2018, Lebron has no other prime season above 3000 minutes played. Jordan's has 10 consecutive prime seasons from 1987-1998 above 3000 minutes. Or 10 out of 11 seasons if you insist on including 1995.

And in some of Lebron's title seasons in particular like 2012 and 2020 his minute totals are laughable.

[PaulieWal]

Ok since you guys are still disputing literal facts I'm just going to post the numbers. Let's just compare their championship seasons in regular season minutes played.

2012 Lebron - 2326 mins
2013 Lebron - 2877 mins
2016 Lebron - 2709 mins
2020 Lebron - 2316 mins

Lebron Average: 2557 mins

1991 Jordan - 3034 mins
1992 Jordan - 3102 mins
1993 Jordan - 3067 mins
1996 Jordan - 3090 mins
1997 Jordan - 3106 mins
1998 Jordan - 3181 mins

Jordan Average: 3097 mins (21% more)

That's a significantly higher load for Jordan in their best seasons.

Overall Lebron has eight 3000+ minute seasons, with six of eight in his first six years from 2004-2009. The others are 2011 and 2018. Jordan has twelve 3000+ minute seasons including 1985, ten straight from 1987-1998 and then one more in 2003.

Lebron from 2012-2022 which is 11 straight seasons averaged 2453 minutes per season. He played an average of 67 games at 36.5 mpg during that span. No one is criticizing Lebron's early career but as the years went on, his loads in the regular season were very small historically compared to his predecessors. That cannot be disputed. Not all of it was load management. Some was legit injuries, some lockouts, some Covid-shortened seasons... Still a reduced load at the end of the day!

If you are gonna go by total minutes per year you should include 94 and 95 in the equation then or 86 for that matter

It makes no sense to mention 2012-2020 total minutes which were affected by injuries and shortened seasons, but not include 94 and 95 in jordan minutes played across the 91-98 stretch

Other than 2009 and 2018, Lebron has no other prime season above 3000 minutes played. Jordan's has 10 consecutive prime seasons from 1987-1998 above 3000 minutes. Or 10 out of 11 seasons if you insist on including 1995.

And in some of Lebron's title seasons in particular like 2012 and 2020 his minute totals are laughable.

Not sure what your point is at all to be honest.....minutes are a cumulative burden on an athlete's body. Of all the things to say MJ>LeBron seems to be a weird argument given that LeBron had already matched Jordan's Chicago Bull's RS minutes by 2015.