RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread

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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#321 » by tsherkin » Sat Sep 2, 2023 2:38 pm

70sFan wrote: West possessed the same qualities than made Jordan amazing and he's the most natural comparison to MJ (more so than Kobe in my opinion).


"Many of the same qualities" seems a more appropriate phrase. I don't think West was an outlier athlete relative to his period in the same way as was Jordan, though his quickness and leaping ability were evident. He still had some key physical attributes, like his coordination and wingspan, of course, but it isn't the same. He did deviate from his league environment more in terms of his FG% and FT% than Jordan, reflecting a level of proficiency well beyond most of his peers, and he was leaps and bounds beyond almost anyone else in terms of drawing fouls, and paid the price for it in health.

"Most natural comparison to MJ" is an interesting one. I'm waffling about this, it doesn't feel quite right to me. Kobe seems best compared to like, 98 Jordan. Definitely not young Jordan. When I watch West, I never really catch the same stylistic feel, either in terms of the way they athletically navigate the floor compared to their peers or in their goals on the court. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I mostly see West going for like a quick pass-pass J with a big, or coming around a screen with a live dribble for the J, or that dirty, dirty, dirty hard pull-up jumper he exploited. That last one sounds a little Jordan-ish, it's a staple for three-point era wing scorers. He seems more methodical to me, carefully dribbling in and out of the post, navigating his screens, always ready to pop that J or make a pass. It doesn't feel the same as MJ, especially young Jordan, hunting for that seam to explode through. Or old MJ, setting up off-ball and waiting for it to come into the post for a bump and fling.

I think Kobe is actually a more natural comparison for Jordan not just because of his well-documented emulation, because what he was doing on the court was often more similar.

So that's my thoughts, but what makes you think West and Jordan are a natural comparison?
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#322 » by 70sFan » Sat Sep 2, 2023 4:55 pm

tsherkin wrote:"Many of the same qualities" seems a more appropriate phrase. I don't think West was an outlier athlete relative to his period in the same way as was Jordan, though his quickness and leaping ability were evident. He still had some key physical attributes, like his coordination and wingspan, of course, but it isn't the same. He did deviate from his league environment more in terms of his FG% and FT% than Jordan, reflecting a level of proficiency well beyond most of his peers, and he was leaps and bounds beyond almost anyone else in terms of drawing fouls, and paid the price for it in health.

That's fair, your choice of words sounds better than mine.

"Most natural comparison to MJ" is an interesting one. I'm waffling about this, it doesn't feel quite right to me. Kobe seems best compared to like, 98 Jordan. Definitely not young Jordan. When I watch West, I never really catch the same stylistic feel, either in terms of the way they athletically navigate the floor compared to their peers or in their goals on the court. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I mostly see West going for like a quick pass-pass J with a big, or coming around a screen with a live dribble for the J, or that dirty, dirty, dirty hard pull-up jumper he exploited. That last one sounds a little Jordan-ish, it's a staple for three-point era wing scorers. He seems more methodical to me, carefully dribbling in and out of the post, navigating his screens, always ready to pop that J or make a pass. It doesn't feel the same as MJ, especially young Jordan, hunting for that seam to explode through. Or old MJ, setting up off-ball and waiting for it to come into the post for a bump and fling.

I think Kobe is actually a more natural comparison for Jordan not just because of his well-documented emulation, because what he was doing on the court was often more similar.


So that's my thoughts, but what makes you think West and Jordan are a natural comparison?[/quote]
I think it's fairly easy - West was a better scorer than Kobe and he leveraged his quick and high release point more than Kobe. I also think of his defensive abilities which were definitely closer to Jordan than to Kobe.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#323 » by tsherkin » Sat Sep 2, 2023 7:07 pm

70sFan wrote:I think it's fairly easy - West was a better scorer than Kobe and he leveraged his quick and high release point more than Kobe. I also think of his defensive abilities which were definitely closer to Jordan than to Kobe.


West definitely had a more appropriate approach to the game in his time, for sure. Kobe artificially increased the degree of difficulty he faced based on the shots he preferred, no doubt. West definitely used that stop-and-pop to devastating effect, it was so nasty in his day. Would probably still be, really. He'd need to look a little more up and be less stiff with his live dribble, but we all know why that was and he had more of a left hand than almost anyone in his day, too, so I don't think it'd be a huge issue at all. As a guy who touched 86, 87% from the line at his peak, I also can't envision him NOT developing a three ball, particularly with his reasonably clean and fundamental mechanics.

The remark about defense makes sense, that's true.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#324 » by SHAQ32 » Mon Sep 4, 2023 7:56 pm

Why was Steph ranked so high? He hasn't played in enough games.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#325 » by Owly » Mon Sep 4, 2023 8:06 pm

SHAQ32 wrote:Why was Steph ranked so high? He hasn't played in enough games.

The best place to find out would be the thread in which he was voted in.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#326 » by One_and_Done » Mon Sep 4, 2023 8:14 pm

Shortest thread yet for #21. I think some chilling effect might be involved.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#327 » by Colbinii » Tue Sep 5, 2023 7:30 pm

SHAQ32 wrote:Why was Steph ranked so high? He hasn't played in enough games.


If you go to page 1 in this thread, you can click a link for Steph Curry.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#328 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Sep 7, 2023 11:40 pm

Are there players who have been inducted onto the list over players who were added to the ballot before them?
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#329 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Sep 8, 2023 7:46 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:Are there players who have been inducted onto the list over players who were added to the ballot before them?


Oh definitely.

- Hakeem jumped Wilt
- West & Oscar jumped Mikan
- Paul & Erving jumped Durant

Possible there are others I'm not thinking of.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#330 » by iggymcfrack » Sat Sep 9, 2023 3:30 am

SHAQ32 wrote:Why was Steph ranked so high? He hasn't played in enough games.


I don't understand this mentality. Steph has played in 882 games. The player voted ahead of him, Magic Johnson, played in 906 games. The player voted in after him, Larry Bird, played in 897 games. He's not any sort of outlier in terms of longevity. In Magic Johnson's final season, he averaged 15/6/7 off the bench for 32 games. In Bird's final season, he played 45 games while struggling through a back injury leading to an ugly first round exit. If Curry had a season like that next year, played 40 games or so at a meh level while struggling through injuries, would that change your opinion of him much? He'd have "more games" than the guy voted in before and after him, but I don't see why a season like that would affect how you rank him as a player. Why does someone completing the decline phase of their career make such a difference for you? And if it does, do you give the same benefits for someone like John Stockton who's longevity edge over an average legend is much larger than the gap between Steph and an average legend on the low side?
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#331 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Sep 9, 2023 3:44 am

iggymcfrack wrote:
SHAQ32 wrote:Why was Steph ranked so high? He hasn't played in enough games.


I don't understand this mentality. Steph has played in 882 games. The player voted ahead of him, Magic Johnson, played in 906 games. The player voted in after him, Larry Bird, played in 897 games. He's not any sort of outlier in terms of longevity. In Magic Johnson's final season, he averaged 15/6/7 off the bench for 32 games. In Bird's final season, he played 45 games while struggling through a back injury leading to an ugly first round exit. If Curry had a season like that next year, played 40 games or so at a meh level while struggling through injuries, would that change your opinion of him much? He'd have "more games" than the guy voted in before and after him, but I don't see why a season like that would affect how you rank him as a player. Why does someone completing the decline phase of their career make such a difference for you? And if it does, do you give the same benefits for someone like John Stockton who's longevity edge over an average legend is much larger than the gap between Steph and an average legend on the low side?



I agree with your general point but it is worth noting that Magic/Bird started off as higher level players than Curry who was a late bloomer. Their total games are comparable but Magic/Bird probably have a decent lead as all-nba players.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#332 » by iggymcfrack » Sat Sep 9, 2023 5:41 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
SHAQ32 wrote:Why was Steph ranked so high? He hasn't played in enough games.


I don't understand this mentality. Steph has played in 882 games. The player voted ahead of him, Magic Johnson, played in 906 games. The player voted in after him, Larry Bird, played in 897 games. He's not any sort of outlier in terms of longevity. In Magic Johnson's final season, he averaged 15/6/7 off the bench for 32 games. In Bird's final season, he played 45 games while struggling through a back injury leading to an ugly first round exit. If Curry had a season like that next year, played 40 games or so at a meh level while struggling through injuries, would that change your opinion of him much? He'd have "more games" than the guy voted in before and after him, but I don't see why a season like that would affect how you rank him as a player. Why does someone completing the decline phase of their career make such a difference for you? And if it does, do you give the same benefits for someone like John Stockton who's longevity edge over an average legend is much larger than the gap between Steph and an average legend on the low side?



I agree with your general point but it is worth noting that Magic/Bird started off as higher level players than Curry who was a late bloomer. Their total games are comparable but Magic/Bird probably have a decent lead as all-nba players.


10 all-NBA seasons for Bird, 10 for Magic, 9 for Curry. He’s not really that far behind.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#333 » by Dr Positivity » Tue Sep 12, 2023 2:14 am

One_and_Done wrote:Shortest thread yet for #21. I think some chilling effect might be involved.


Did we stop quoting people? I haven't gotten one for a while.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#334 » by One_and_Done » Tue Sep 12, 2023 3:00 am

Dr Positivity wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Shortest thread yet for #21. I think some chilling effect might be involved.


Did we stop quoting people? I haven't gotten one for a while.

Posters are only quoted by a mod in the event of a tie. You need to remember to post yourself otherwise. That's not what I'd chalk up the chilling effect to.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#335 » by postertag » Wed Sep 13, 2023 4:39 pm

could be the string of unlikable players dampering enthusiasm (K Malone, Paul, Durant), or that the majority of recent candidates lean 2010's which doesn't strike as much curiosity
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#336 » by ShotCreator » Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:32 pm

Probably the list I agree with most, ever, at a glance. At least as far as ranges and tiers. I don't think I could even agree my own list set in stone.

Two things though: Stockton simply has to make an all-time list by 20-ish. It's a decade and half career of all-nba guard play with no missed games, ever.

On a universal level, Stockton might have had a top 10 career purely due to the volume of all-nba basketball he played.

Plus minus metrics put him on at least, top 5 in the league impact guy year to year. A fringe-MVP essentially. It's not a regular level of career impact. And naturally Malone falls into the category too, though I believe his career defense and offense was less developed at different parts of his career and that from the late 80's to mid 90's he was worse than Stockton.

Secondly, the Magic/Bird/Curry trio just seems too high to me all for the same reasons. Longevity.

If you honestly, go year by year and ask yourself, when EXACTLY, by year, Curry had more objective career value than Chris Paul, and had surpassed him, and you try to be scientific and nail that down, you realize how weak Curry's career has been compared to a #11 ranking. Though the past two years help him greatly.

Chris Paul didn't stop having fringe-MVP impact until 2019. And he was an MVP candidate twice before Curry was even a rookie. It's a high bar if you objectively analyze it.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#337 » by One_and_Done » Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:41 pm

Stockton not bring MVP level has been discussed extensively my dude.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#338 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed Sep 13, 2023 11:46 pm

ShotCreator wrote:Probably the list I agree with most, ever, at a glance. At least as far as ranges and tiers. I don't think I could even agree my own list set in stone.

Two things though: Stockton simply has to make an all-time list by 20-ish. It's a decade and half career of all-nba guard play with no missed games, ever.

On a universal level, Stockton might have had a top 10 career purely due to the volume of all-nba basketball he played.

Plus minus metrics put him on at least, top 5 in the league impact guy year to year. A fringe-MVP essentially. It's not a regular level of career impact. And naturally Malone falls into the category too, though I believe his career defense and offense was less developed at different parts of his career and that from the late 80's to mid 90's he was worse than Stockton.

Secondly, the Magic/Bird/Curry trio just seems too high to me all for the same reasons. Longevity.

If you honestly, go year by year and ask yourself, when EXACTLY, by year, Curry had more objective career value than Chris Paul, and had surpassed him, and you try to be scientific and nail that down, you realize how weak Curry's career has been compared to a #11 ranking. Though the past two years help him greatly.

Chris Paul didn't stop having fringe-MVP impact until 2019. And he was an MVP candidate twice before Curry was even a rookie. It's a high bar if you objectively analyze it.


I think if you value totality of career value then I would agree that Stockton is in the 20s if not a bit higher.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#339 » by JazzP » Thu Sep 14, 2023 8:16 pm

Vote: Dwyane Wade
Alternative Vote: Nikola Jokic

Nomination: Bob Pettit
Alternative Nomination: Scottie Pippen
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread 

Post#340 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Sep 14, 2023 9:35 pm

JazzP wrote:Vote: Dwyane Wade
Alternative Vote: Nikola Jokic

Nomination: Bob Pettit
Alternative Nomination: Scottie Pippen



Wrong thread. Also, remember to add reasoning for your primary vote.

If you're not on the voting list then ask Doc MJ and you'll be able to vote next round.

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