RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #13 (Kobe Bryant)

[eminence]

The next time I see Bill Russell waiting in the paint for me at an LA Fitness will be the first.

Played against a future NBA player (Mark Davis, so not even a rotation player), he blocked one of my shots from more than 10' away.

Yeah, pro talents can just clown around in gym pickup games, do things the rest of us can't dream of. I think the worst I've ever seen a team get beat down (on my team luckily enough) was when Stanley Umude (who? fringe fringe NBA guy - has a camp contract with the Pistons currently) was taking one somewhat seriously.

But hey, me and you would totally be legit minutes getting pros in the 60s/70s, lol.

[therealbig3]

Jerry West is a fully worthy pick here btw…as well as Oscar Robertson, Dirk, and Mikan. I’ve supported Kobe and he would be my pick, but the discussion is what’s important, and the more I’m reading, the more impressed I am with everyone being debated right now. They’re all great. Wish we had as much data and film on Oscar and West that we could dissect like we do with Kobe and Dirk.

[Colbinii]

The next time I see Bill Russell waiting in the paint for me at an LA Fitness will be the first.

Played against a future NBA player (Mark Davis, so not even a rotation player), he blocked one of my shots from more than 10' away.

Yeah, pro talents can just clown around in gym pickup games, do things the rest of us can't dream of. I think the worst I've ever seen a team get beat down (on my team luckily enough) was when Stanley Umude (who? fringe fringe NBA guy - has a camp contract with the Pistons currently) was taking one somewhat seriously.

But hey, me and you would totally be legit minutes getting pros in the 60s/70s, lol.

I played with Justin Patton in the summer of 2018 in Minneapolis at a small court [half court]. He was the best passer I had ever seen in a pick-up game.

[penbeast0]

Yeah, pro talents can just clown around in gym pickup games, do things the rest of us can't dream of. I think the worst I've ever seen a team get beat down (on my team luckily enough) was when Stanley Umude (who? fringe fringe NBA guy - has a camp contract with the Pistons currently) was taking one somewhat seriously.

But hey, me and you would totally be legit minutes getting pros in the 60s/70s, lol.

I couldn't make my high school team in the 70s. Heck, let's be honest, I couldn't have made a high school team in the 1940s, I was a painfully skinny 5'11 guy who lived by my hook shot.

[eminence]

Yeah, pro talents can just clown around in gym pickup games, do things the rest of us can't dream of. I think the worst I've ever seen a team get beat down (on my team luckily enough) was when Stanley Umude (who? fringe fringe NBA guy - has a camp contract with the Pistons currently) was taking one somewhat seriously.

But hey, me and you would totally be legit minutes getting pros in the 60s/70s, lol.

I couldn't make my high school team in the 70s. Heck, let's be honest, I couldn't have made a high school team in the 1940s, I was a painfully skinny 5'11 guy who lived by my hook shot.

Just needed to move to the rural midwest, everybody makes the team round these parts.

I actually first learned basketball from my mother, who taught me 6v6 Iowa HS Girls rules (3 per team per half, can't switch halves, guards played defense, forwards played offense). It was... different.

[cupcakesnake]

For the people debating Kobe>West due to era related concerns, who are saying 60s guards can't be ranked over 2000s guards...
Where do you rank guys like West and Oscar? What's the cutoff, and how many modern guards do you rank ahead of them based off the same criteria? Is it a tiebreaker type of criteria, or much more important than that?

[Colbinii]

For the people debating Kobe>West due to era related concerns, who are saying 60s guards can't be ranked over 2000s guards...
Where do you rank guys like West and Oscar? What's the cutoff, and how many modern guards do you rank ahead of them based off the same criteria? Is it a tiebreaker type of criteria, or much more important than that?

It only matters when compared to their favorite player [Kobe]. It will not apply to Harden or Wade.

[OhayoKD]

The next time I see Bill Russell waiting in the paint for me at an LA Fitness will be the first.

Played against a future NBA player (Mark Davis, so not even a rotation player), he blocked one of my shots from more than 10' away.

Yeah, pro talents can just clown around in gym pickup games, do things the rest of us can't dream of. I think the worst I've ever seen a team get beat down (on my team luckily enough) was when Stanley Umude (who? fringe fringe NBA guy - has a camp contract with the Pistons currently) was taking one somewhat seriously.

But hey, me and you would totally be legit minutes getting pros in the 60s/70s, lol.

I am very curious what all this has to do with how a 60's guard would fare today.

[AEnigma]

For the people debating Kobe>West due to era related concerns, who are saying 60s guards can't be ranked over 2000s guards...
Where do you rank guys like West and Oscar? What's the cutoff, and how many modern guards do you rank ahead of them based off the same criteria? Is it a tiebreaker type of criteria, or much more important than that?

It only matters when compared to their favorite player [Kobe]. It will not apply to Harden or Wade.

Yes, everyone voting Kobe over Oscar and West are doing so because we all just love Kobe so much. Even when we say we actively dislike him, do not trust us, because our subconscious love knows no bounds.

The most obsessive self-proclaimed modernist here is strictly voting against Kobe at every opportunity, but yeah, it is the guys voting for him who have a problem with looking to vote according to their personal biases.

[Colbinii]

For the people debating Kobe>West due to era related concerns, who are saying 60s guards can't be ranked over 2000s guards...
Where do you rank guys like West and Oscar? What's the cutoff, and how many modern guards do you rank ahead of them based off the same criteria? Is it a tiebreaker type of criteria, or much more important than that?

It only matters when compared to their favorite player [Kobe]. It will not apply to Harden or Wade.

Yes, everyone voting Kobe over Oscar and West are doing so because we all just love Kobe so much. Even when we say we actively dislike him, do not trust us, because our subconscious love knows no bounds.

The most obsessive self-proclaimed modernist here is strictly voting against Kobe at every opportunity, but yeah, it is the guys voting for him who have a big problem with drifting toward their favourites.

That isn't my point and I don't think you read cupcakesnake.

My point is more so about people saying 1960s guards won't translate. If that is their stance, then Kobe shouldn't be the only guard better than them. Considering Wade and Harden are knocking on the door on the Top 20, their arguments should be clearly ahead of West is Kobe's argument is West can't translate well to this era.

[AEnigma]

It only matters when compared to their favorite player [Kobe]. It will not apply to Harden or Wade.

Yes, everyone voting Kobe over Oscar and West are doing so because we all just love Kobe so much. Even when we say we actively dislike him, do not trust us, because our subconscious love knows no bounds.

The most obsessive self-proclaimed modernist here is strictly voting against Kobe at every opportunity, but yeah, it is the guys voting for him who have a problem with looking to vote according to their personal biases.

That isn't my point and I don't think you read cupcakesnake.

My point is more so about people saying 1960s guards won't translate. If that is their stance, then Kobe shouldn't be the only guard better than them. Considering Wade and Harden are knocking on the door on the Top 20, their arguments should be clearly ahead of West is Kobe's argument is West can't translate well to this era.

I read cupcake’s point fine. You decided to turn it into a lazy quip that applies to literally no voter here.

[Doctor MJ]

A day ago it was 10-10 best Kobe & West.

New votes:

Kobe - 6 (Clyde, Funda, Dr P, Jimmy, falco, ceoofk)
West - 5 (eminence, Colbinii, DGold, Moonbeam, Luka)

Kobe takes it 16-15.

Kobe Bryant is Inducted at the #13 spot.

[Colbinii]

It only matters when compared to their favorite player [Kobe]. It will not apply to Harden or Wade.

Yes, everyone voting Kobe over Oscar and West are doing so because we all just love Kobe so much. Even when we say we actively dislike him, do not trust us, because our subconscious love knows no bounds.

The most obsessive self-proclaimed modernist here is strictly voting against Kobe at every opportunity, but yeah, it is the guys voting for him who have a big problem with drifting toward their favourites.

That isn't my point and I don't think you read cupcakesnake.

My point is more so about people saying 1960s guards won't translate. If that is their stance, then Kobe shouldn't be the only guard better than them. Considering Wade and Harden are knocking on the door on the Top 20, their arguments should be clearly ahead of West is Kobe's argument is West can't translate well to this era.

If your rationale for Kobe is this:

People are talking about modernism most of the time with these type of comparisons and I don’t think anyone with a brain doubts how Kobe translates today lol. Kobes era was probably the most difficult era in an absolute sense for wings to score anyway so this does not help the argument at all lol

Well Harden is literally the GOAT at isolation scoring against Modern Offenses.

I will 100% admit that yeah, we won’t ever know without a time machine if West in an absolute sense is comparable to Kobe or not, we also don’t know if he’d be as good as Austin reaves or even if he’s an nba player. Maybe he’s better than kobe, or maybe he’s a worse discount version of Austin reaves, which in an absolute sense you could absolutely make that argument if you want to make this Kobe and west one an argument too lol.

You see what I mean? West shouldn't be in the Top 100 for this person. That is my point. If this is the rationale someone is using, then West shouldn't sniff their Top 100. And that is fine--as long as they are consistent.

[Colbinii]

Yes, everyone voting Kobe over Oscar and West are doing so because we all just love Kobe so much. Even when we say we actively dislike him, do not trust us, because our subconscious love knows no bounds.

The most obsessive self-proclaimed modernist here is strictly voting against Kobe at every opportunity, but yeah, it is the guys voting for him who have a problem with looking to vote according to their personal biases.

That isn't my point and I don't think you read cupcakesnake.

My point is more so about people saying 1960s guards won't translate. If that is their stance, then Kobe shouldn't be the only guard better than them. Considering Wade and Harden are knocking on the door on the Top 20, their arguments should be clearly ahead of West is Kobe's argument is West can't translate well to this era.

I read cupcake’s point fine. You decided to turn it into a lazy quip that applies to literally no voter here.

You are right, unibro isn't a voter

[AEnigma]

Deleted

[Dr Positivity]

For the people debating Kobe>West due to era related concerns, who are saying 60s guards can't be ranked over 2000s guards...
Where do you rank guys like West and Oscar? What's the cutoff, and how many modern guards do you rank ahead of them based off the same criteria? Is it a tiebreaker type of criteria, or much more important than that?

I'd rate West over some modern players who are clearly lower tier than him for their era, it's not like I'd rate Drexler over them or anything. West/Oscar vs Paul is probably at least an argument for me honestly.

How much better is West for the 60s than Kobe for the 00s? West's volume is less for his era than Kobe's when you take into account pace and minutes, but he is EXTREMELY efficient compared to his peers. So his WS stats are better. Still, at the end of the day, he's not really any closer to being better than Wilt/Russell than Kobe was to being better than Shaq/Duncan.

I just think Kobe and Dirk have all around extremely good resumes of high level play, longevity, commitment to winning, etc. It falls off hard after them for modern competition, I just had to put Durant as 2nd on my nominee list who I'm a hater of.

[Colbinii]

This tier from Bird to Dirk/Malone is going to be a ton of very close threads.

[Colbinii]

How much better is West for the 60s than Kobe for the 00s? West's volume is less for his era than Kobe's when you take into account pace and minutes, but he is EXTREMELY efficient compared to his peers. So his WS stats are better. Still, at the end of the day, he's not really any closer to being better than Wilt/Russell than Kobe was to being better than Shaq/Duncan.

This is an interesting thought exercise and how to compare these players.

On one hand, West led his team to a ton of NBA Finals while West/Oscar were clearly a tier up on all other perimeter players from that era.

On the other hand, arguments for CP3/Wade/LeBron/Nash as perimeter players were all close to, at, or above Kobe's level peak-for-peak.

Now, Kobe's prime longevity is a feather in his cap against just about any perimeter player post-Miller and pre-LeBron.

[eminence]

Played against a future NBA player (Mark Davis, so not even a rotation player), he blocked one of my shots from more than 10' away.

Yeah, pro talents can just clown around in gym pickup games, do things the rest of us can't dream of. I think the worst I've ever seen a team get beat down (on my team luckily enough) was when Stanley Umude (who? fringe fringe NBA guy - has a camp contract with the Pistons currently) was taking one somewhat seriously.

But hey, me and you would totally be legit minutes getting pros in the 60s/70s, lol.

I am very curious what all this has to do with how a 60's guard would fare today.

As a qualified LA Fitness hooper I figured I could comment on how close my own skill level is to 60s/70s pros. Then just some fun memories from each.

[OhayoKD]

Yeah, pro talents can just clown around in gym pickup games, do things the rest of us can't dream of. I think the worst I've ever seen a team get beat down (on my team luckily enough) was when Stanley Umude (who? fringe fringe NBA guy - has a camp contract with the Pistons currently) was taking one somewhat seriously.

But hey, me and you would totally be legit minutes getting pros in the 60s/70s, lol.

I am very curious what all this has to do with how a 60's guard would fare today.

As a qualified LA Fitness hooper I figured I could comment on how close my own skill level is to 60s/70s pros. Then just some fun memories from each.

You have played 60's/70's pros?