2019-20 NBA Season Discussion

[Dr Positivity]

I assume it was an open secret Davis was hell bent on going to LA

Lebron's plan was getting both George and Davis in my opinion and he would have if not for weird OKC resign. He read it perfectly that a bunch of LA guys in a row were FAs. The only thing he cares about is catching MJ, if they had all wanted BKN or whatever he'd have gone there.

[yoyoboy]

Good point, and if he's a clearly outstanding 3-point shooter in addition to his best-in-league passing and savvy interior scoring game, it's pretty dang understandable why it's impossible to stop the Denver offense. (To say nothing of Murray turning the corner.)

Are you higher on Jokic’s passing than LeBron’s?

Yes.

Interesting. He's certainly better at squeezing passes through tight windows, but LeBron's advantage when it comes to being able to rocket passes with both speed and distance makes it difficult for me. Would you place any of Trae, Luka, Curry, Draymond, or Paul ahead of LBJ?

[MyUniBroDavis]

Good point, and if he's a clearly outstanding 3-point shooter in addition to his best-in-league passing and savvy interior scoring game, it's pretty dang understandable why it's impossible to stop the Denver offense. (To say nothing of Murray turning the corner.)

Are you higher on Jokic’s passing than LeBron’s?

Yes.

Why out of curiousity?

I think for their positions maybe but in terms of overall i dont see how jokic is a better passer. Lebron has a big edge in volume, a huge edge in versatility, according to bball index has a great edge in terms of shot quality from his assists

From film, id say jokic is better at making reads passing to cutters early, but its offset by lebron being a more versatile passer and taking better care of the ball in terms of his passing, along with being great at those as well (and arguably it being a case of not takkng those opportunities + the generally more stagnant lakers offense). when you compare lebrons assist ratio to his bad pass ratio, its better than jokic or any other of the top scoring-playmakers in the league. This is pretty significant because pick and roll ball handlers generally will have the highest bad pass amounts as well since its definately the play that gives the most turnovers relatively speaking (and it holds true comparing players of those archetype vs passing big archetypes, although jokic is obviously unique in that regard because more of his passes are high risk high reward than other playmakjng centers). Beyond that, id say lebron generally has less room for his passes and is better on instinctual than jokic, jokic is more seeing the play develop or surveying everyone and picking out the right pass or pass faking to open up windows (which bron does really well too) whereas brons often is making tight passes in really short windows after glancing upwards and not having time to see the play develop

In terms of creating windows jokic is the best in the league at pass fakes to open up windows but lebron normally uses his eyes to sell fakes, alot of his lobs to ad howard and mcgee come from him staring at kcp in the corner and the help defender branching it out, and since this play happens multiple times a game hes good at baiting it and then actually doing it when the defender thinks hes gonna bait the next possession


I think one of the main things for me is i like to define playmaking by how consistently someone makes the right reads, and the kinda of reads they can make, and lebron is kind of godly in this regard at this point of his career. He isnt as flashy a passer as jokic, doncic, or even harden, but hes very much the ultimate jack of all trades passer as a whole. He can pass in every situation at a very good level, some at an elite ATG level, and i think theres alot of value in that. While theres generally tradeoffs to having too many guys that want to score, or post playmakers etc etc, there arent really tradeoffs of having too many guys that can do those things vs has to

I realize jokic isnt a post olaymaking is is the hild the ball in the air for awhile look and find the cutter before they know they gonna do it-pass fake to guy inside to draw the d and kick it out for the open three type type beat but i think lebrons versatility as a playmaker and intelligence in that while he might not always make these obscene crazy reads, he almost always makes great ones, has more value to me.

From bball index standpoing he ranks first in pass versatility, volume, effeciency, and third in quality creation (behind trae and harden iirc, i dont watch trae but harden makes sense from his offense being what it is). He also averages the most high value assists per game among other things

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I feel lebrons passing has hit another level this year honestly, especially considering his relative lack of passing turnovers I think hes having an atg season from that regard

[Doctor MJ]

For one what culture did that team have? They’d been a mess on and off court for a long time.


Things went sour in an attempt to get AD. And AD, as it turns out, was worth that.

Well, to me LeBron's behavior last year was an extension of some of the passive aggressive crap I'd seen before. To me LeBron has a clear tendency to take his frustration out on those around him and he did so last year when the other players on the team were trying to make a good impression and the franchise was looking at the very least to improve their trade value.

They got AD yes, and yes the fact that they were after AD made things tougher, but there were problems all year.

[MyUniBroDavis]

For one what culture did that team have? They’d been a mess on and off court for a long time.


Things went sour in an attempt to get AD. And AD, as it turns out, was worth that.

Well, to me LeBron's behavior last year was an extension of some of the passive aggressive crap I'd seen before. To me LeBron has a clear tendency to take his frustration out on those around him and he did so last year when the other players on the team were trying to make a good impression and the franchise was looking at the very least to improve their trade value.

They got AD yes, and yes the fact that they were after AD made things tougher, but there were problems all year.

Im pretty sure the young guys have gone on record and said it wasnt what lebron did its what the media circus around him was, and bron himself was great, and they thought it was weird bron was getting blamed

I know they wouldnt say otherwise but i dont see how he would have handled that situation differently, hes human and we dont actually know what goes on behind the scenes, we hear what reporters say they think is going on

The only real big thing there is is the kyrie stuff and now that seems way more kyrie

[Doctor MJ]

Are you higher on Jokic’s passing than LeBron’s?

Yes.

Why out of curiousity?

I think for their positions maybe but in terms of overall i dont see how jokic is a better passer. Lebron has a big edge in volume, a huge edge in versatility, according to bball index has a great edge in terms of shot quality from his assists

From film, id say jokic is better at making reads passing to cutters early, but its offset by lebron being a more versatile passer and taking better care of the ball in terms of his passing, along with being great at those as well (and arguably it being a case of not takkng those opportunities + the generally more stagnant lakers offense). when you compare lebrons assist ratio to his bad pass ratio, its better than jokic or any other of the top scoring-playmakers in the league. This is pretty significant because pick and roll ball handlers generally will have the highest bad pass amounts as well since its definately the play that gives the most turnovers relatively speaking (and it holds true comparing players of those archetype vs passing big archetypes, although jokic is obviously unique in that regard because more of his passes are high risk high reward than other playmakjng centers). Beyond that, id say lebron generally has less room for his passes and is better on instinctual than jokic, jokic is more seeing the play develop or surveying everyone and picking out the right pass or pass faking to open up windows (which bron does really well too) whereas brons often is making tight passes in really short windows after glancing upwards and not having time to see the play develop

In terms of creating windows jokic is the best in the league at pass fakes to open up windows but lebron normally uses his eyes to sell fakes, alot of his lobs to ad howard and mcgee come from him staring at kcp in the corner and the help defender branching it out, and since this play happens multiple times a game hes good at baiting it and then actually doing it when the defender thinks hes gonna bait the next possession

I think Jokic showed more instinct at passing right when he came in the league than LeBron ever showed despite the fact that LeBron tried to paint himself as Magic when he came in the league. LeBron's an outstanding passer, but there's a level above him with truly intuitive creativity that leaves people saying "How do you even describe what that was?" Guys like Bird, Magic, and Nash are on that level. Jokic is too, I don't think LeBron is. LeBron's a bit robotic in comparison.

I think you can make an argument based on things like consistency that Jokic is a bit unproven still, but he does things we haven't seen before.

Re: Jokic better passing angle. By a little yes, though extra passing angle is mostly important when you're close to 6 feet. Meanwhile LeBron typically has the advantage of teams actually wanting him to pass because they're more scared of his scoring than his passing, which is a pretty big deal.

[Dupp]

For one what culture did that team have? They’d been a mess on and off court for a long time.


Things went sour in an attempt to get AD. And AD, as it turns out, was worth that.

Well, to me LeBron's behavior last year was an extension of some of the passive aggressive crap I'd seen before. To me LeBron has a clear tendency to take his frustration out on those around him and he did so last year when the other players on the team were trying to make a good impression and the franchise was looking at the very least to improve their trade value.

They got AD yes, and yes the fact that they were after AD made things tougher, but there were problems all year.

You’re right about Lebrons passive aggressive behaviour that’s definitely been an issue. Usually toward ownership ( Dan and Pat) but the tweet about love was really bad. Loves the ultimate team player.


What issues were lebron and the Lakers having before all the AD trade rumours last season? Seemed like they were gelling pretty well before lebron got injured?

[Doctor MJ]

For one what culture did that team have? They’d been a mess on and off court for a long time.


Things went sour in an attempt to get AD. And AD, as it turns out, was worth that.

Well, to me LeBron's behavior last year was an extension of some of the passive aggressive crap I'd seen before. To me LeBron has a clear tendency to take his frustration out on those around him and he did so last year when the other players on the team were trying to make a good impression and the franchise was looking at the very least to improve their trade value.

They got AD yes, and yes the fact that they were after AD made things tougher, but there were problems all year.

Im pretty sure all the young guys have gone on record and said it wasnt what lebron did its what the media circus around him was, and bron himself was great

I know they wouldnt say otherwise but i dont see how he would have handled that situation differently, hes human and we dont actually know what goes on behind the scenes, we hear what reporters say they think is going on

The only real big thing there is is the kyrie stuff and now that seems way more kyrie

I've seen the way his teammates act during and after LeBron has a tantrum. It's not good.

To be clear: Jordan and Kobe had similar things going on and I don't let them off the hook for that, but things compound once there's a proven track record that if LeBron starts acting like that the team is going to start making trades, and then they compound even further when specific rumors make rounds.

You can say it doesn't really matter because he needed to get rid of those guys and he treated teammates well once things were going well, but it's easy to be kind to others when everything is going well for you. It's telling what you do when you have the power and you take the frustration out on those around you. LeBron's a bit of a dog kicker, just like Jordan and Kobe, and I wish they weren't. I wish that wasn't the example of leadership younger people were continuing to learn from.

[Dupp]

Did lebron really ever treat his teammates bad besides IT? I get he had a disregard for them in Peru’s it of his own glory but has he really been a jerk that often? I can think of IT and the live tweet. I’m sure there’s more but I dunno. Lebron and live actually ended up having a pretty good relationship too.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Yes.

Why out of curiousity?

I think for their positions maybe but in terms of overall i dont see how jokic is a better passer. Lebron has a big edge in volume, a huge edge in versatility, according to bball index has a great edge in terms of shot quality from his assists

From film, id say jokic is better at making reads passing to cutters early, but its offset by lebron being a more versatile passer and taking better care of the ball in terms of his passing, along with being great at those as well (and arguably it being a case of not takkng those opportunities + the generally more stagnant lakers offense). when you compare lebrons assist ratio to his bad pass ratio, its better than jokic or any other of the top scoring-playmakers in the league. This is pretty significant because pick and roll ball handlers generally will have the highest bad pass amounts as well since its definately the play that gives the most turnovers relatively speaking (and it holds true comparing players of those archetype vs passing big archetypes, although jokic is obviously unique in that regard because more of his passes are high risk high reward than other playmakjng centers). Beyond that, id say lebron generally has less room for his passes and is better on instinctual than jokic, jokic is more seeing the play develop or surveying everyone and picking out the right pass or pass faking to open up windows (which bron does really well too) whereas brons often is making tight passes in really short windows after glancing upwards and not having time to see the play develop

In terms of creating windows jokic is the best in the league at pass fakes to open up windows but lebron normally uses his eyes to sell fakes, alot of his lobs to ad howard and mcgee come from him staring at kcp in the corner and the help defender branching it out, and since this play happens multiple times a game hes good at baiting it and then actually doing it when the defender thinks hes gonna bait the next possession

I think Jokic showed more instinct at passing right when he came in the league than LeBron ever showed despite the fact that LeBron tried to paint himself as Magic when he came in the league. LeBron's an outstanding passer, but there's a level above him with truly intuitive creativity that leaves people saying "How do you even describe what that was?" Guys like Bird, Magic, and Nash are on that level. Jokic is too, I don't think LeBron is. LeBron's a bit robotic in comparison.

I think you can make an argument based on things like consistency that Jokic is a bit unproven still, but he does things we haven't seen before.

Re: Jokic better passing angle. By a little yes, though extra passing angle is mostly important when you're close to 6 feet. Meanwhile LeBron typically has the advantage of teams actually wanting him to pass because they're more scared of his scoring than his passing, which is a pretty big deal.

I get what ur saying, and would agree up to this year. I think its that lebrons instinct is much more subtle and less flashy passing wise. He doesnt really even attempt to throw the ball into those super tight windows, it might be a risk reward thing, or to rephrase that when he throws a ball into a tight window its usually when he knows if he throws it right itll connect, at least relative to the times where he might throw it right and it might not connect (idk if that made sense)

Otoh, i think hes an insane passer at reacting to things as it happens around him (more so than when he surveys the floor), might be up there with best court awareness while hes attacking ever, and his passing versatility is unmatched. I agree his passes usually have less flash than guys like jokic or bird but they just seem more reliable as a whole, in terms of making the right traditional reads, etc etc.

I think hes better at reacting to whats around him than in front of him, and i probably would have more value in that

[Doctor MJ]

For one what culture did that team have? They’d been a mess on and off court for a long time.


Things went sour in an attempt to get AD. And AD, as it turns out, was worth that.

Well, to me LeBron's behavior last year was an extension of some of the passive aggressive crap I'd seen before. To me LeBron has a clear tendency to take his frustration out on those around him and he did so last year when the other players on the team were trying to make a good impression and the franchise was looking at the very least to improve their trade value.

They got AD yes, and yes the fact that they were after AD made things tougher, but there were problems all year.

You’re right about Lebrons passive aggressive behaviour that’s definitely been an issue. Usually toward ownership ( Dan and Pat) but the tweet about love was really bad. Loves the ultimate team player.


What issues were lebron and the Lakers having before all the AD trade rumours last season? Seemed like they were gelling pretty well before lebron got injured?

I appreciate you throwing me a bone here and mentioning Love. Seriously, Kevin "I've been struggling with anxiety" Love who writes this in Cleveland after brimming with confidence in Minnesota. I think a different leader could have gotten more out of Love. Love needed his confidence built when he struggled, and while LeBron certainly tried to be positive at times, the truth of the matter is that it's not about the positive interactions and subtracting the negative. Any time you do something negative when you're in a position of power you're likely to erode the confidence of others around you, and building it back up is always harder.

Re: What issues...? In all honesty I don't remember and it may be that it's just all blurring together for me. The thing is I was really looking to see last season if the locker room vibe would sour if they struggled and how LeBron would respond if that occurred precisely because what I'd seen him do in Cleveland. Hence the argument of "Well they were going fine until..." isn't really how it sits with me. I wanted to see LeBron bring out the best in those guys, and I felt he drove them in the opposite direction. And I'll point to Brandon Ingram specifically here as someone everyone thought LeBron could make look better but in fact looked better as soon as he didn't have to play with LeBron any more. Yes, fit is a thing, but a guy can still look confident in his playing with sub-optimal fit. I'd have hoped LeBron would have helped with that, and I really don't think he did.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Well, to me LeBron's behavior last year was an extension of some of the passive aggressive crap I'd seen before. To me LeBron has a clear tendency to take his frustration out on those around him and he did so last year when the other players on the team were trying to make a good impression and the franchise was looking at the very least to improve their trade value.

They got AD yes, and yes the fact that they were after AD made things tougher, but there were problems all year.

You’re right about Lebrons passive aggressive behaviour that’s definitely been an issue. Usually toward ownership ( Dan and Pat) but the tweet about love was really bad. Loves the ultimate team player.


What issues were lebron and the Lakers having before all the AD trade rumours last season? Seemed like they were gelling pretty well before lebron got injured?

I appreciate you throwing me a bone here and mentioning Love. Seriously, Kevin "I've been struggling with anxiety" Love who writes this in Cleveland after brimming with confidence in Minnesota. I think a different leader could have gotten more out of Love. Love needed his confidence built when he struggled, and while LeBron certainly tried to be positive at times, the truth of the matter is that it's not about the positive interactions and subtracting the negative. Any time you do something negative when you're in a position of power you're likely to erode the confidence of others around you, and building it back up is always harder.

Re: What issues...? In all honesty I don't remember and it may be that it's just all blurring together for me. The thing is I was really looking to see last season if the locker room vibe would sour if they struggled and how LeBron would respond if that occurred precisely because what I'd seen him do in Cleveland. Hence the argument of "Well they were going fine until..." isn't really how it sits with me. I wanted to see LeBron bring out the best in those guys, and I felt he drove them in the opposite direction. And I'll point to Brandon Ingram specifically here as someone everyone thought LeBron could make look better but in fact looked better as soon as he didn't have to play with LeBron any more. Yes, fit is a thing, but a guy can still look confident in his playing with sub-optimal fit. I'd have hoped LeBron would have helped with that, and I really don't think he did.

I mean its more so coaching than fit there. Outside of his shooting improving and being able to run the pick and roll better, ingram wasnt really different back then vs now

He was really bad at running it on the lakers and walton was just like nah fam keep doing it , whether he was bad becauze of coaching or worked on it in the summer idk, but walten put a bunch of guys in a position to fail

[Doctor MJ]

Why out of curiousity?

I think for their positions maybe but in terms of overall i dont see how jokic is a better passer. Lebron has a big edge in volume, a huge edge in versatility, according to bball index has a great edge in terms of shot quality from his assists

From film, id say jokic is better at making reads passing to cutters early, but its offset by lebron being a more versatile passer and taking better care of the ball in terms of his passing, along with being great at those as well (and arguably it being a case of not takkng those opportunities + the generally more stagnant lakers offense). when you compare lebrons assist ratio to his bad pass ratio, its better than jokic or any other of the top scoring-playmakers in the league. This is pretty significant because pick and roll ball handlers generally will have the highest bad pass amounts as well since its definately the play that gives the most turnovers relatively speaking (and it holds true comparing players of those archetype vs passing big archetypes, although jokic is obviously unique in that regard because more of his passes are high risk high reward than other playmakjng centers). Beyond that, id say lebron generally has less room for his passes and is better on instinctual than jokic, jokic is more seeing the play develop or surveying everyone and picking out the right pass or pass faking to open up windows (which bron does really well too) whereas brons often is making tight passes in really short windows after glancing upwards and not having time to see the play develop

In terms of creating windows jokic is the best in the league at pass fakes to open up windows but lebron normally uses his eyes to sell fakes, alot of his lobs to ad howard and mcgee come from him staring at kcp in the corner and the help defender branching it out, and since this play happens multiple times a game hes good at baiting it and then actually doing it when the defender thinks hes gonna bait the next possession

I think Jokic showed more instinct at passing right when he came in the league than LeBron ever showed despite the fact that LeBron tried to paint himself as Magic when he came in the league. LeBron's an outstanding passer, but there's a level above him with truly intuitive creativity that leaves people saying "How do you even describe what that was?" Guys like Bird, Magic, and Nash are on that level. Jokic is too, I don't think LeBron is. LeBron's a bit robotic in comparison.

I think you can make an argument based on things like consistency that Jokic is a bit unproven still, but he does things we haven't seen before.

Re: Jokic better passing angle. By a little yes, though extra passing angle is mostly important when you're close to 6 feet. Meanwhile LeBron typically has the advantage of teams actually wanting him to pass because they're more scared of his scoring than his passing, which is a pretty big deal.

I get what ur saying, and would agree up to this year. I think its that lebrons instinct is much more subtle and less flashy passing wise. He doesnt really even attempt to throw the ball into those super tight windows, it might be a risk reward thing, or to rephrase that when he throws a ball into a tight window its usually when he knows if he throws it right itll connect, at least relative to the times where he might throw it right and it might not connect (idk if that made sense)

Otoh, i think hes an insane passer at reacting to things as it happens around him (more so than when he surveys the floor), might be up there with best court awareness while hes attacking ever, and his passing versatility is unmatched. I agree his passes usually have less flash than guys like jokic or bird but they just seem more reliable as a whole, in terms of making the right traditional reads, etc etc.

I think hes better at reacting to whats around him than in front of him, and i probably would have more value in that

I'd disagree. LeBron's built his passing game from a young age to be eye-catching. He made a show of the no-look passes as a kid and had his first ad campaign be the "Book of Dimes" where he was throwing sexy, sexy passes all over the place. I think that LeBron now is more all-business than he used to be and he's better for it, but the thing is that in actual NBA games, I never thought LeBron gave you the kind of every game "Oh my god, how did he thing to do that?" we see from someone like Jokic. And often when Jokic makes those kinds of plays, there's literally nothing about his body motion that is flashy. The flash comes from our cognitive processing as we try to get our head's around the geometry of the situation.

I think you can perhaps make the point that Jokic's sacred geometry isn't as effective as it is beautiful when consider turnovers, shooting outcomes, etc - I haven't looked at those numbers - but there's a "Oh my god, that's not a type of move, that's bespoke improvisation" feeling to Jokic that I just don't get from LeBron.

[Doctor MJ]

You’re right about Lebrons passive aggressive behaviour that’s definitely been an issue. Usually toward ownership ( Dan and Pat) but the tweet about love was really bad. Loves the ultimate team player.


What issues were lebron and the Lakers having before all the AD trade rumours last season? Seemed like they were gelling pretty well before lebron got injured?

I appreciate you throwing me a bone here and mentioning Love. Seriously, Kevin "I've been struggling with anxiety" Love who writes this in Cleveland after brimming with confidence in Minnesota. I think a different leader could have gotten more out of Love. Love needed his confidence built when he struggled, and while LeBron certainly tried to be positive at times, the truth of the matter is that it's not about the positive interactions and subtracting the negative. Any time you do something negative when you're in a position of power you're likely to erode the confidence of others around you, and building it back up is always harder.

Re: What issues...? In all honesty I don't remember and it may be that it's just all blurring together for me. The thing is I was really looking to see last season if the locker room vibe would sour if they struggled and how LeBron would respond if that occurred precisely because what I'd seen him do in Cleveland. Hence the argument of "Well they were going fine until..." isn't really how it sits with me. I wanted to see LeBron bring out the best in those guys, and I felt he drove them in the opposite direction. And I'll point to Brandon Ingram specifically here as someone everyone thought LeBron could make look better but in fact looked better as soon as he didn't have to play with LeBron any more. Yes, fit is a thing, but a guy can still look confident in his playing with sub-optimal fit. I'd have hoped LeBron would have helped with that, and I really don't think he did.

I mean its more so coaching than fit there. Outside of his shooting improving and being able to run the pick and roll better, ingram wasnt really different back then vs now

He was really bad at running it on the lakers and walton was just like nah fam keep doing it , whether he was bad becauze of coaching or worked on it in the summer idk, but walten put a bunch of guys in a position to fail

I mean, the Lakers hired Walton as coach with him pitching them on a motion offense that resembled Kerr's Warriors and Phil's Lakers. The moment LeBron announced he was coming, we all thought "Well, LeBron's not going to want to do that and there's not much point to Luke as coach then, so they should probably just fired Luke now." And that's totally what happened. Luke, like all the other players, were basically powerless in LeBron's wake.

Look: I wouldn't be so hard on LeBron here if I didn't have so much confidence in his floor raising abilities. He joined a team that won 35 games the year before and they were basically a .500 team when he played. I understand there were other lineup differences, but this is LeBron. He's made a habit of lifting mediocre talent to 60 wins. He didn't show the ability to do anything like that last year, and while chalk some of that up to not being 100%, I just never got that "We're going to go hard every damn game!" edge from him that I've seen from him in many years.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I think Jokic showed more instinct at passing right when he came in the league than LeBron ever showed despite the fact that LeBron tried to paint himself as Magic when he came in the league. LeBron's an outstanding passer, but there's a level above him with truly intuitive creativity that leaves people saying "How do you even describe what that was?" Guys like Bird, Magic, and Nash are on that level. Jokic is too, I don't think LeBron is. LeBron's a bit robotic in comparison.

I think you can make an argument based on things like consistency that Jokic is a bit unproven still, but he does things we haven't seen before.

Re: Jokic better passing angle. By a little yes, though extra passing angle is mostly important when you're close to 6 feet. Meanwhile LeBron typically has the advantage of teams actually wanting him to pass because they're more scared of his scoring than his passing, which is a pretty big deal.

I get what ur saying, and would agree up to this year. I think its that lebrons instinct is much more subtle and less flashy passing wise. He doesnt really even attempt to throw the ball into those super tight windows, it might be a risk reward thing, or to rephrase that when he throws a ball into a tight window its usually when he knows if he throws it right itll connect, at least relative to the times where he might throw it right and it might not connect (idk if that made sense)

Otoh, i think hes an insane passer at reacting to things as it happens around him (more so than when he surveys the floor), might be up there with best court awareness while hes attacking ever, and his passing versatility is unmatched. I agree his passes usually have less flash than guys like jokic or bird but they just seem more reliable as a whole, in terms of making the right traditional reads, etc etc.

I think hes better at reacting to whats around him than in front of him, and i probably would have more value in that

I'd disagree. LeBron's built his passing game from a young age to be eye-catching. He made a show of the no-look passes as a kid and had his first ad campaign be the "Book of Dimes" where he was throwing sexy, sexy passes all over the place. I think that LeBron now is more all-business than he used to be and he's better for it, but the thing is that in actual NBA games, I never thought LeBron gave you the kind of every game "Oh my god, how did he thing to do that?" we see from someone like Jokic. And often when Jokic makes those kinds of plays, there's literally nothing about his body motion that is flashy. The flash comes from our cognitive processing as we try to get our head's around the geometry of the situation.

I think you can perhaps make the point that Jokic's sacred geometry isn't as effective as it is beautiful when consider turnovers, shooting outcomes, etc - I haven't looked at those numbers - but there's a "Oh my god, that's not a type of move, that's bespoke improvisation" feeling to Jokic that I just don't get from LeBron.

I mean thats mostly what im saying though, referring to 2020 bron in particular

I will say tho some of the passes lebron make dont seem as pretty or cool as beatiful as jokic's, but i dont think that neccessarily makes them less difficult

Like passing wise, i guess jokic makes me think how did he see that whereas bron makes me think how did he do that you know what i mean

[Doctor MJ]

Are you higher on Jokic’s passing than LeBron’s?

Yes.

Interesting. He's certainly better at squeezing passes through tight windows, but LeBron's advantage when it comes to being able to rocket passes with both speed and distance makes it difficult for me. Would you place any of Trae, Luka, Curry, Draymond, or Paul ahead of LBJ?

I think Luka is more instinctive as well, though his actual decision making judgment is nowhere near as good as LeBron.

I think Dray thinks as quick as anybody but is hard to compare to LeBron because their roles are so different. LeBron's built his passing game around the idea that the entire defense is predicated on stopping him from scoring. He looks to use the attention he draws from the defense around him to his advantage gravity style. Dray on the other hand works in the shadows and then makes use of the fact that the ball is faster than the man to get superior scorers the ball.

I see Paul and LeBron pretty similarly in general. LeBron's a more effective offensive player primarily because of his body.

I love Curry but don't think he's in the same tier as LeBron, Dray, or Paul as a passer.

Honestly haven't watched enough Trae to comment.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I appreciate you throwing me a bone here and mentioning Love. Seriously, Kevin "I've been struggling with anxiety" Love who writes this in Cleveland after brimming with confidence in Minnesota. I think a different leader could have gotten more out of Love. Love needed his confidence built when he struggled, and while LeBron certainly tried to be positive at times, the truth of the matter is that it's not about the positive interactions and subtracting the negative. Any time you do something negative when you're in a position of power you're likely to erode the confidence of others around you, and building it back up is always harder.

Re: What issues...? In all honesty I don't remember and it may be that it's just all blurring together for me. The thing is I was really looking to see last season if the locker room vibe would sour if they struggled and how LeBron would respond if that occurred precisely because what I'd seen him do in Cleveland. Hence the argument of "Well they were going fine until..." isn't really how it sits with me. I wanted to see LeBron bring out the best in those guys, and I felt he drove them in the opposite direction. And I'll point to Brandon Ingram specifically here as someone everyone thought LeBron could make look better but in fact looked better as soon as he didn't have to play with LeBron any more. Yes, fit is a thing, but a guy can still look confident in his playing with sub-optimal fit. I'd have hoped LeBron would have helped with that, and I really don't think he did.

I mean its more so coaching than fit there. Outside of his shooting improving and being able to run the pick and roll better, ingram wasnt really different back then vs now

He was really bad at running it on the lakers and walton was just like nah fam keep doing it , whether he was bad becauze of coaching or worked on it in the summer idk, but walten put a bunch of guys in a position to fail

I mean, the Lakers hired Walton as coach with him pitching them on a motion offense that resembled Kerr's Warriors and Phil's Lakers. The moment LeBron announced he was coming, we all thought "Well, LeBron's not going to want to do that and there's not much point to Luke as coach then, so they should probably just fired Luke now." And that's totally what happened. Luke, like all the other players, were basically powerless in LeBron's wake.

Look: I wouldn't be so hard on LeBron here if I didn't have so much confidence in his floor raising abilities. He joined a team that won 35 games the year before and they were basically a .500 team when he played. I understand there were other lineup differences, but this is LeBron. He's made a habit of lifting mediocre talent to 60 wins. He didn't show the ability to do anything like that last year, and while chalk some of that up to not being 100%, I just never got that "We're going to go hard every damn game!" edge from him that I've seen from him in many years.

Waltons offense system in 2018 pre lebron was pretty much worst in the league as well though, and it was as bad in 2019. It wasnt bad in the sense that it just didnt put the players in correct positions although it didnt but they didnt have a list of non high school level set plays iirc

Like cranjis literally made a tier list of coaches schemes and had like a gap at the bottom and below that put luke tier or something lol, he sold himself as one thing and completely failed at it, although alot of it was murmeys

Hes been better in the kings i think system wise but it doesnt change that it was horrible with the lakers. Theres an idea that lue just said lol give it to lebron and leave in the cavs vut their offensive system as a whole was probably better than the current lakers

Luke getting fired was the best thing to happen to the lakers, like genuinly would lose 4th pikc from last year vs another year of luke

[Heej]

In regards to LeBron and Jokic's passing it's a fascinating debate. I think Jokic is clearly one of those guys that inspires people to cut and he has incredible touch, timing, and accuracy with his passing. Personally, I think football terms are the best way for me to sum up my thoughts on the matter. And what I'm gonna go with is that LeBron has the GOAT arm talent in NBA history.

Arm talent in NFL terms being the power and accuracy a quarterback can get on their throws. It doesn't have anything to do with vision or progressing through your reads or whatever, just which guy can hit the bullseye and throw a ball thru sheetrock kinda deal. Jokic has exceptional arm talent, especially with his shorter range passes to cutters and his outlets; but the one thing no one in this league has managed to come close to LeBron in is the zip that he has on his passes to spot up shooters. Even watching a guy like Luka who can make the same skip passes, he throws lofty lobs over defenses that allow an extra split second for the closeout to get there and either force the player to burp up a contested miss or record scratch the offense. LeBron throws MFin darts to those guys man.

No one else creates that same extra half second that LeBron consistently buys you with his kickouts. And honestly, most of it is just his unusually explosive tendons and ligaments. Sometimes when you play ball with guys or even younger kids that are more explosive than you, there's times you can tell from the weight of the pass you catch that this person is able to put a different level of zip on that ball that you're not gonna be able to replicate. Some young guys I've seen that do have comparable zip to LeBron are Simmons and Lonzo coincidentally. Those 2 just have great pop to their passes, it's great to see.

So while Jokic has many things in his favor, from a mechanical efficiency standpoint you're just not gonna get a guy that can create wide open shots at the same rate because some of the exact same passes that a Luka, Harden (although his zip is comparable), or Jokic throw just doesn't create a look that's as open because the defender has an extra split second to recover due to the decreased velocity.

That's why Magic is the GOAT and will be for a while, because he had a comparable amount of arm talent to LeBron in terms of the speed at which some of his catchable passes zipped to teammates; but he also had a different energy and natural sense about his passing that's rarely seen. But that's how it goes ya know, if Ricky Rubio had even James Hardens arm talent he'd be the best passer in the league lol.

[tone wone]

I mean its more so coaching than fit there. Outside of his shooting improving and being able to run the pick and roll better, ingram wasnt really different back then vs now

He was really bad at running it on the lakers and walton was just like nah fam keep doing it , whether he was bad becauze of coaching or worked on it in the summer idk, but walten put a bunch of guys in a position to fail

I mean, the Lakers hired Walton as coach with him pitching them on a motion offense that resembled Kerr's Warriors and Phil's Lakers. The moment LeBron announced he was coming, we all thought "Well, LeBron's not going to want to do that and there's not much point to Luke as coach then, so they should probably just fired Luke now." And that's totally what happened. Luke, like all the other players, were basically powerless in LeBron's wake.

Look: I wouldn't be so hard on LeBron here if I didn't have so much confidence in his floor raising abilities. He joined a team that won 35 games the year before and they were basically a .500 team when he played. I understand there were other lineup differences, but this is LeBron. He's made a habit of lifting mediocre talent to 60 wins. He didn't show the ability to do anything like that last year, and while chalk some of that up to not being 100%, I just never got that "We're going to go hard every damn game!" edge from him that I've seen from him in many years.

Waltons offense system in 2018 pre lebron was pretty much worst in the league as well though, and it was as bad in 2019. It wasnt bad in the sense that it just didnt put the players in correct positions although it didnt but they didnt have a list of non high school level set plays iirc

Like cranjis literally made a tier list of coaches schemes and had like a gap at the bottom and below that put luke tier or something lol, he sold himself as one thing and completely failed at it, although alot of it was murmeys

Hes been better in the kings i think system wise but it doesnt change that it was horrible with the lakers. Theres an idea that lue just said lol give it to lebron and leave in the cavs vut their offensive system as a whole was probably better than the current lakers

Luke getting fired was the best thing to happen to the lakers, like genuinly would lose 4th pikc from last year vs another year of luke

Magic was right!

Following the Lakers for the last 2 years...the most hilarious thing about the 2019 team was that Magic was 100% right about Luke Walton. He wanted him gone...ownership balked. He wanted Luke to upgrade his staff (running joke on Lakers Twitter about Luke's "frat bros" staff)...ownership left it up to Luke. He rewarded their faith in him by producing the worst Lebron-led offense since the days of Eric Snow and Ira Newbel.

CP3 this year in OKC this year is what Lebron hoped for in 2019. A low stakes break from the championship rat race. A gap year. Injuries rob them of that. I don't think its wise to look for any deeper meaning into that season. They were a poorly coached, poorly constructed team that could've been "solid" but got wrecked with injuries

[Dupp]

Not saying who’s better but I think the most impressive thing about Lebrons passing is the speed and precision he makes his passes and hits shooters in their pockets. Not so much flash or anything like that.