Retro Player of the Year Project

[Sedale Threatt]

It's all about standards. For 95% of the NBA, his 35/7/7 in the opener would be a career game. For him, it's just a bit above average. That's why he's already being named a potential GOAT candidate without having won a single championship ring.

Like I said, I've defended him to the absolute hilt for last year. THAT I blame 100% on his supporting cast and his crappy coach. He couldn't have done anything more.

This year, though, I don't see how anyone can gloss over how he played. Just look at the numbers, and replay the games while they're still fresh in the mind.

Cleveland's up 2-1, having just snatched home court back on the strength of his Game 3 tour de force, and he proceeds to shoot under 40 percent, while failing to reach his scoring average, with a total of 19 turnovers, in each of the final three games.

Game 6 I can live with; he at least left it all out on the court. But Game 5 was one of the worsts superstar performances I've ever seen in a big game -- and that's saying something considering I've seen Kobe flame out in multiple Finals. Playing bad is one thing, but to just not show up on an emotional level...it still baffles me. Game 2 wasn't a whole lot better.

Doesn't mean he's not a great player (understatement of the year). No question he needs more help. But this can't be considered anything but a pretty severe tarnish on his legacy -- with plenty more chapters to come, obviously. Indeed, if he's a true champion, he'll use it as fuel.

[ElGee]

Best player in the series? Really?

I defended him to the hilt last year, when he went down with both barrels blazing. This year, however, he was obviously well below par in a pretty massive flameout.

Very good to great in two games, medciore to poor in four others. All in all, I have no problem calling that the worsts series of his career considering his experience and what was at stake.

He was below par for him, and depending on how you break down the games -- something I've argued for in the past -- you might be able to come up with a better player (Rondo?). That's fair. But, overall, if every possession in the series is valued the same, then he was the best. If we judge him by different standards or value G5 more than G1, then you could make a case for someone else.

I think the glasses through which people judge LeBron James are quite tinted.

(I'd say G1 great. G2 very good -- still probably best player on floor. G3 epic. G4 not so good. G5 worse. G6 good. So if you value G4-G6 more than G1-G3 I can understand the criticism. And somehow those three games are enough to drop James in people's book.)

[Sedale Threatt]

He was below par for him...

Well, yeah. That's the whole key, isn't it?

As I said before, it's all about standards -- HIS standards. Which are incredibly high, but his nonetheless. He's the one who set the bar that high.

Triple double aside, I'm not sure if I'd consider last night a good game. Nine turnovers and 8-for-21 shooting isn't enough to offset the statistical dominance. I appreciated his effort; he left it out there. But that's not a good game -- for him.

Same thing with Game 2. That wasn't a very good game by his standards. Indeed, it was well below par across the board, especially considering they got rolled at home.

In terms of "dropping" him based on this series, I'm not sure how to answer that. He's still the best player in the world, in my opinion.

But I have to think this has had a pretty significant impact on his image. It's one thing to play great and lose, like last year. No harm, no foul. But to play poorly -- by his standards -- and lose, at this stage of his career, with so much at stake...how does he avoid taking a substantial hit in this instance?

No question it's a blemish. How he responds next will determine the extent of the damage.

[semi-sentient]

Hey, get back to work!

[Sedale Threatt]

Dude, these **** are taking forever. I'm almost literally sitting here with my dick in my hands, waiting for this particular event to finish. We had a five-hour rain delay so everything is all backed up to hell.

[Sedale Threatt]

If they're not done by 10:30, I'm just going to say F it.

[semi-sentient]

Cool. I'm planning to head out there in 10 minutes, so just give me a heads up when you're on your way. I'll be at the bar (to the left when you walk in).

[ElGee]

He was below par for him...

Well, yeah. That's the whole key, isn't it?

As I said before, it's all about standards -- HIS standards. Which are incredibly high, but his nonetheless. He's the one who set the bar that high.

Triple double aside, I'm not sure if I'd consider last night a good game. Nine turnovers and 8-for-21 shooting isn't enough to offset the statistical dominance. I appreciated his effort; he left it out there. But that's not a good game -- for him.

Same thing with Game 2. That wasn't a very good game by his standards. Indeed, it was well below par across the board, especially considering they got rolled at home.

In terms of "dropping" him based on this series, I'm not sure how to answer that. He's still the best player in the world, in my opinion.

But I have to think this has had a pretty significant impact on his image. It's one thing to play great and lose, like last year. No harm, no foul. But to play poorly -- by his standards -- and lose, at this stage of his career, with so much at stake...how does he avoid taking a substantial hit in this instance?

No question it's a blemish. How he responds next will determine the extent of the damage.

Timeout. Aren't we comparing players to each other, not themselves? James at 95% is still better than Tony Allen at 140%. Overachieving doesn't make Tony Allen the best player in that series.

Of course it has a significant impact on his image, because his image is shaped by the masses who are slaves to team success, What Have You Done For Me Lately disease, inability to analyze the sport beyond basic box stats and suffer from All Or Nothing Syndrome (see: Manning, Peyton, Super Bowl).

I thought KG and Rondo were better last night, but LeBron still had a good game. And it was his 4th best game of the 6.

[Gongxi]

He was below par for him...

Well, yeah. That's the whole key, isn't it?

As I said before, it's all about standards -- HIS standards. Which are incredibly high, but his nonetheless. He's the one who set the bar that high.

No, that's not the key. We're comparing players to each other, not to themselves. If LeBryan Nash averages 40/20/15 in 2017 and then in the playoffs drops to 30/15/10 while his team gets beat in the second round, you don't dock him points for that unless someone actually plays better than 30/15/10.

[bastillon]

game 6 was awful. he kept Celtics in the game singlehandedly with his TOVs. it generated tons of points in transition. his poor shooting didn't help either, despite the huge bonus from the refs like all series. game 5 was one of the most embarrassing moments for a superstar ever. never showed up. game 4 was poor as well and so was game 2. he played great in game 3 and very well in game 1. the rest of the series he didn't show up.

I know I'll put Nash, Dwight, probably Kobe and Wade EASILY ahead of him. Wade played to win. LeBron played to... I don't know, stat-pad ? I think all of these players would do more for Cleveland in that series. I'll think about Dirk vs LeBron for no.5, but I know Nowitzki would at least show up and not lose in such an embarrassing fashion. this is what strikes me the most... he seemed as if he didn't even care... and then the way g6 ended, with Cavs giving up when there was 1 min to go ? wtf ? where's your leadership ? this guy is nowhere near no.1 on my list for that ridiculous performance.

[Sedale Threatt]

No, that's not the key. We're comparing players to each other, not to themselves.

Timeout. Aren't we comparing players to each other, not themselves?

A good point.

But I have a problem rating somebody as having been the best in a series when they can be considered to have played below average in two thirds of it, while their team squandered another opportunity to win a championship.

Context needs to be applied. You can't just toss that out in favor of rote statistical production. That was a poor series for him, no matter how you cut it. He underachieved and his team lost.

Tony Allen is a poor comparison as a role player. But somebody like Rondo? Who overachieved while putting up great numbers in his own right, and leading his team to a pretty significant upset? That's pretty clearly better in my mind.

[Sedale Threatt]

Of course it has a significant impact on his image, because his image is shaped by the masses who are slaves to team success, What Have You Done For Me Lately disease, inability to analyze the sport beyond basic box stats and suffer from All Or Nothing Syndrome (see: Manning, Peyton, Super Bowl).

OK, then -- give us your analysis of his performance beyond to so-called "basic box score stats." Which is an ironic statement, as you seem to be clinging pretty heavily to his pts/rbs/assts from Game 6 and not much else.

What subtleties, what intangibles that elude basic observation did he bring that can outweigh what occurred?

I'm sure he'll be thrilled to have been "the best player in the series" despite scoring less, shooting worse, committing more turnovers with less assists than he did during the RS, all while playing with noticeably less energy and intensity in more games than not, as his team was eliminated by a team they finished 11 games ahead of in the standings.

[Silver Bullet]

Of course it has a significant impact on his image, because his image is shaped by the masses who are slaves to team success, What Have You Done For Me Lately disease, inability to analyze the sport beyond basic box stats and suffer from All Or Nothing Syndrome (see: Manning, Peyton, Super Bowl).

OK, then -- give us your analysis of his performance beyond to so-called "basic box score stats."

He was injured.

[Doctor MJ]

Now on break. Next thread, Monday morning.

[bastillon]

Of course it has a significant impact on his image, because his image is shaped by the masses who are slaves to team success, What Have You Done For Me Lately disease, inability to analyze the sport beyond basic box stats and suffer from All Or Nothing Syndrome (see: Manning, Peyton, Super Bowl).

OK, then -- give us your analysis of his performance beyond to so-called "basic box score stats."

He was injured.

can't believe you're actually using this as an excuse. "his elbow needs rest" - this has no meaning in playoff basketball. Nash played with one-eye, Kobe is injured all season long, Garnett played through foot injury. no way you can come in and discard his performance because of some imaginary pain that didn't affect him in Game 1... or Game 3... but suddenly had series-changing impact during the rest of the series. this Lelbow crap got out of hand, but let's be real here.

[Gongxi]

game 6 was awful. he kept Celtics in the game singlehandedly with his TOVs. it generated tons of points in transition. his poor shooting didn't help either, despite the huge bonus from the refs like all series. game 5 was one of the most embarrassing moments for a superstar ever. never showed up. game 4 was poor as well and so was game 2. he played great in game 3 and very well in game 1. the rest of the series he didn't show up.

I know I'll put Nash, Dwight, probably Kobe and Wade EASILY ahead of him. Wade played to win. LeBron played to... I don't know, stat-pad ? I think all of these players would do more for Cleveland in that series. I'll think about Dirk vs LeBron for no.5, but I know Nowitzki would at least show up and not lose in such an embarrassing fashion. this is what strikes me the most... he seemed as if he didn't even care... and then the way g6 ended, with Cavs giving up when there was 1 min to go ? wtf ? where's your leadership ? this guy is nowhere near no.1 on my list for that ridiculous performance.

You'd put LeBron 5th this year? Holy ****. Talk about a handful of games having a inordinate amount of influence on the analysis of how someone played over the course of a season. Why don't you just take the last four games out of any one player's season and just rank them on that?

[Silver Bullet]

OK, then -- give us your analysis of his performance beyond to so-called "basic box score stats."

He was injured.

can't believe you're actually using this as an excuse. "his elbow needs rest" - this has no meaning in playoff basketball. Nash played with one-eye, Kobe is injured all season long, Garnett played through foot injury. no way you can come in and discard his performance because of some imaginary pain that didn't affect him in Game 1... or Game 3... but suddenly had series-changing impact during the rest of the series. this Lelbow crap got out of hand, but let's be real here.

So your explanation is what again ?

that he choked ?

[sp6r=underrated]

Lebron is still number 1 for me, and will be regardless of what happens. In my MVP ballot for the RS, I had

Lebron

(gap)

Wade/Howard/Durant

(gap)

Kobe

I could only see Wade, Howard, or Durant passing going into the playoffs. But for that to happen, it would have an epic PS melt-down by Lebron (think 95 Robinson), and a historic run by one of those three.

Lebron, despite the disaster of game 5, overall played great in the PS. That means it would be almost impossible for me to consider taking someone over Lebron. Out of the three candidates for passing Lebron.

Durant played awful vs LA so he is out.

Wade did play at a high enough level that I would consider him. But his team was bounced out of the 1st round. I'm not elevating Wade for a great series against Boston, which IMO was better than Lebron's effort, but was still only a 1st round series.

Howard struggled vs Charlotte. He had an excellent series vs Atlanta but it wasn't at the level necessary to come close to passing Lebron. Overall, he's not close in the PS to what it would take for me to rank Howard over Lebron.

[Sedale Threatt]

Of course it has a significant impact on his image, because his image is shaped by the masses who are slaves to team success, What Have You Done For Me Lately disease, inability to analyze the sport beyond basic box stats and suffer from All Or Nothing Syndrome (see: Manning, Peyton, Super Bowl).

OK, then -- give us your analysis of his performance beyond to so-called "basic box score stats."

He was injured.

Or how about Delonte screwing his mom? I like that excuse better.

[Silver Bullet]

Yea, In fact, I will - for my personal satisfaction - use the 2010 vote as a sanity gauge. I will recount all the votes for every year - discarding the votes of anybody that didn't vote for Lebron in 2010.