RealGM Top 100 List -- 2011

Laimbeer · Post #341 » by **Laimbeer** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:18 pm

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

After seeing the arguments in the threads and explanations, I'm pretty much convinced we need two lists.

1) Peak individual play and how well their style of play and skills would transcend into different eras (this basically meaning downgrade players of earlier eras). Heavy reliance on statistical analysis.

2) Best overall career, judging players on how they performed against their peers. Heavier emphasis on team success (particularly titles), intangibles, and impact on the game of basketball. More reliance on expert opinion, eyewitness accounts, and awards.

I'm convinced these are two pretty distinct methods, with most posters subscribing to one or the other. The first is utilized by perhaps 75% of the realgm judges and the second more commonly used elsewhere. Both can be argued as fitting the original criteria outlined.

JerkyWay · Post #342 » by **JerkyWay** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:28 pm

Laimbeer wrote:After seeing the arguments in the threads and explanations, I'm pretty much convinced we need two lists.

That would be great, unfortunately it's far too late... :-?

Laimbeer wrote:1) Peak individual play and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. Heavy reliance on statistical analysis.

That's the "best" player.

Laimbeer wrote:2) Best overall career, judging how players performed against their peers. Heavier emphasis on team success and intangibles. More reliance on expert opinion, eyewitness accounts, and awards.

That's the "greatest" player.

Excellent idea, Laimbeer.

Bill Russell is a very interesting case - I can agree he is the "greatest" player of all-time ( albeit Jordan has just as good case as him for that title - his accolades are unmatched ), but he's probably a fringe Top 10 if we're talking about the first point Laimbeer has done. I guess he's somewhere in Duncan/Hakeem territory.

Laimbeer · Post #343 » by **Laimbeer** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:37 pm

I think you nailed it JW - "Best" or "Greatest"?

What we have is generally the first and a bit of a hybrid. Not that it isn't interesting.

Fencer reregistered · Post #344 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:46 pm

Laimbeer wrote:I think you nailed it JW - "Best" or "Greatest"?

What we have is generally the first and a bit of a hybrid. Not that it isn't interesting.

Officially, we're looking for the "Greatest".

I have no problems with those who are looking for the "Best" instead. I do, however, get annoyed with those who assert scornfully that we're only looking for the "Best", and that anybody who is looking for the "Greatest" is way out of line.

Fencer reregistered · Post #345 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:47 pm

Laimbeer wrote:eyewitness accounts,

One quibble -- those are at least as relevant to your #1 as to your #2.

drza · Post #346 » by **drza** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:10 am

Laimbeer wrote:Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

After seeing the arguments in the threads and explanations, I'm pretty much convinced we need two lists.

1) Peak individual play and how well their style of play and skills would transcend into different eras (this basically meaning downgrade players of earlier eras). Heavy reliance on statistical analysis.

2) Best overall career, judging players on how they performed against their peers. Heavier emphasis on team success (particularly titles), intangibles, and impact on the game of basketball. More reliance on expert opinion, eyewitness accounts, and awards.

I'm convinced these are two pretty distinct methods, with most posters subscribing to one or the other. The first is utilized by perhaps 75% of the realgm judges and the second more commonly used elsewhere. Both can be argued as fitting the original criteria outlined.

Your 2nd list was the way the last top 100 list was done back in 2008. From my understanding, Baller and crew wanted to make this list less about a compilation of accomplishments and more about who played the best (with criteria for judging that left pretty open).

Here's the '08 list thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=830301&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

JerkyWay · Post #347 » by **JerkyWay** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:00 am

drza wrote:Here's the '08 list thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=830301&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

I love the Top 10, but I'd put Shaq at 6th, Bird at 7th and Hakeem at 9th. I'm just not sure who's better between Hakeem and Duncan.

Hondo at #14 is pretty high...Too high.

BTW. Guys, why did you exclude Mikan even though who was still available three years ago? :roll:

Post #348 » by **penbeast0** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:12 am

I suggested it, partly because I have a tough time judging pre shot clock players . . . Fulks and the pre-NBA guys even more than Mikan . . . and partly because I hate reading that great past players couldn't be scrubs today . . . but mainly because you need a starting point and shot clock seems a better one than "start of NBA" or "where B-R.com stats exist"

Similar reasons to exclude Euroleague play and ABL numbers -- ABA gets included because they merged and we have ways to compare them to their NBA counterparts (league jumpers, exhibitions, play after merger, etc.)

MacGill · Post #349 » by **MacGill** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:18 pm

Who got in at #26-27?

Laimbeer · Post #350 » by **Laimbeer** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:57 pm

MacGill wrote:Who got in at #26-27?

Baylor and Ewing, I believe. Late on Baylor, early on Pat.

MacGill · Post #351 » by **MacGill** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:03 pm

Laimbeer wrote:
MacGill wrote:Who got in at #26-27?

Baylor and Ewing, I believe. Late on Baylor, early on Pat.

Thanks, yeah I'd be most interested in the Ewing debate.

Laimbeer · Post #352 » by **Laimbeer** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:38 pm

Just as an aside, it would probably be a good idea to re-post the list at the beginning of each new thread rather than just at the top of this one - I assume baller is tied up.

JordansBulls · Post #353 » by **JordansBulls** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:22 pm

Laimbeer wrote:Just as an aside, it would probably be a good idea to re-post the list at the beginning of each new thread rather than just at the top of this one - I assume baller is tied up.

But can't a mod edit the list for him?

Fencer reregistered · Post #354 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:09 am

We have a hurricane coming. My wife is convinced there will be a power outage, and hopes it will be measured in hours rather than days. The governor of Connecticut has predicted statewide outages of days or weeks.

It's possible that a delay in the voting schedule is in order.

Laimbeer · Post #355 » by **Laimbeer** » Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:17 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:We have a hurricane coming. My wife is convinced there will be a power outage, and hopes it will be measured in hours rather than days. The governor of Connecticut has predicted statewide outages of days or weeks.

It's possible that a delay in the voting schedule is in order.

Not sure if that will happen, but leave a list while you can.

Best of luck and be safe.

Dr Positivity · Post #356 » by **Dr Positivity** » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:55 pm

If penbeast wants to update the first thread himself, here's the links to quote and copy/paste:

26) Elgin Baylor
27) Patrick Ewing
28) John Havlicek
29) Isiah Thomas

ronnymac2 · Post #357 » by **ronnymac2** » Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:14 pm

Aww yeahhhhh, hurricane yeaahhhh...

May get clobbered as well, so I left TMAC the West Coast cat a list.

If I am absent beyond the life of the list, just count TMAC's vote as double; I trust his judgment. I'll be damned if I'm without roof AND vote...

If counting his vote twice is illegal, disregard my last paragraph.

Post #358 » by **penbeast0** » Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:08 pm

Thanks DrM, looking forward to seeing your responses to my English v. Nique points.

Fencer reregistered · Post #359 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:21 am

I'm in San Francisco, well-clear of the hurricane. But that still leaves me on a busy trip, with an uncomfortable hotel room computer set-up, with my spare time focused on seeing how my family is doing in the face of Irene back home.

So I should be able to log on and vote, but mainly I'll just be voting my previous opinions without a whole lot of new thought added.

shawngoat23 · Post #360 » by **shawngoat23** » Thu Sep 1, 2011 7:08 am

Hey, I haven't been participating much the last few weeks. I recently underwent knee surgery and have been either 1) in a lot of pain, 2) feeling really nauseous from medication, or 3) feeling really bummed out about the situation.

I'll try to catch up on what I've missed by reading the previous threads. Hopefully, if I'm feeling better, I would like to participate again (if it's okay with you guys!).