Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise

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Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise

Hakeem Olajuwon
53
50%
Tim Duncan
53
50%
 
Total votes: 106

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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#341 » by baki » Tue Jul 1, 2014 3:44 am

microfib4thewin wrote:If Hakeem played more minutes during his youth then we will also have to consider the possibility that Hakeem would not play as well when he got older, and with him playing worse past age 30 he may not have the same deep playoff runs that he enjoyed from age 30 - 34('93 - '97). We might never see a fabled run as great as his '94 and '95 postseason.


All great points, only thing different I would say is that Houston had some quality players prior to their championship run to have been a good team (Otis Thorpe, Ken Smith, Maxwell and much earlier with Sampson and McCray).

I think the issue was that Hakeem thought that he was a better player than he was at the time and should have been entitled more than what he was getting, so it became more about him and less about the team. After all, he was the first pick of the 1984 draft BEFORE Jordan so he had a lot to live up to (that same draft also happened to get Otis Thorpe as the 9th pick). In addition he also had 1983 1st pick Ralph Sampson and 3rd pick Rodney McCray. Those 2 years (1983/1984) had some of the best players coming out of them and they made NBA finals.

When you have that much team potentials riding early in your career you would think that he would have tasted success a lot faster, so I say his attitude problem and ego was probably a strong hindrance in Houston's early chance for a championship run.
* Since 1985, Jeremy Lin became one of 15 players to have scored at least 20 points, seven assists and a steal for six games in a row, including 136 points in 5 starts beating out Iverson, Jordan and O'Neal :D
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#342 » by baki » Tue Jul 1, 2014 3:48 am

JordansBulls wrote:Never seen a debate this close on Realgm before. We are talking almost 100 votes and the poll is tied up. Two evenly matched players.


Yup, early on it seemed that Hakeem would be runaway leader in this poll (it was like 63% to 27% Duncan).
* Since 1985, Jeremy Lin became one of 15 players to have scored at least 20 points, seven assists and a steal for six games in a row, including 136 points in 5 starts beating out Iverson, Jordan and O'Neal :D
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#343 » by magicmerl » Tue Jul 1, 2014 4:03 am

JordansBulls wrote:Never seen a debate this close on Realgm before. We are talking almost 100 votes and the poll is tied up. Two evenly matched players.

Yes, it's pretty amazing. I wonder if this will pull the two players close together in the goat rankings currently ongoing?
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#344 » by Shot Clock » Tue Jul 1, 2014 7:12 am

JordansBulls wrote:Never seen a debate this close on Realgm before. We are talking almost 100 votes and the poll is tied up. Two evenly matched players.


One player was playing when most of the voters were likely not even around.

The other still has the Dirk effect on him of a title win.
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#345 » by Shot Clock » Tue Jul 1, 2014 7:19 am

baki wrote:
microfib4thewin wrote:If Hakeem played more minutes during his youth then we will also have to consider the possibility that Hakeem would not play as well when he got older, and with him playing worse past age 30 he may not have the same deep playoff runs that he enjoyed from age 30 - 34('93 - '97). We might never see a fabled run as great as his '94 and '95 postseason.


All great points, only thing different I would say is that Houston had some quality players prior to their championship run to have been a good team (Otis Thorpe, Ken Smith, Maxwell and much earlier with Sampson and McCray).

I think the issue was that Hakeem thought that he was a better player than he was at the time and should have been entitled more than what he was getting, so it became more about him and less about the team. After all, he was the first pick of the 1984 draft BEFORE Jordan so he had a lot to live up to (that same draft also happened to get Otis Thorpe as the 9th pick). In addition he also had 1983 1st pick Ralph Sampson and 3rd pick Rodney McCray. Those 2 years (1983/1984) had some of the best players coming out of them and they made NBA finals.

When you have that much team potentials riding early in your career you would think that he would have tasted success a lot faster, so I say his attitude problem and ego was probably a strong hindrance in Houston's early chance for a championship run.


At this point in the thread there's no way you can be this ignorant of the 80's Rockets situation. You have to be trolling.
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#346 » by Baller2014 » Tue Jul 1, 2014 7:32 am

Shot Clock continues to disregard the many pages of analysis about Hakeem myself and others provided I see. Shot Clock, a mountain of evidence was provided about the many solid to good support casts Hakeem had, please go back and read it.
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#347 » by baki » Tue Jul 1, 2014 10:00 am

Shot Clock wrote:
At this point in the thread there's no way you can be this ignorant of the 80's Rockets situation. You have to be trolling.


Why do some people feel the need to get personal? It's been well documented that Hakeem had a temper and had issues with management from players to money, before everyone saw him as a calm and gentle guy he was an absolute prima donna early in his career. He even faked an injury and asked to be traded because he didn't think the Rockets had a chance at winning the championship. He threw in the towel on Houston, not once but twice.
* Since 1985, Jeremy Lin became one of 15 players to have scored at least 20 points, seven assists and a steal for six games in a row, including 136 points in 5 starts beating out Iverson, Jordan and O'Neal :D
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#348 » by Shot Clock » Tue Jul 1, 2014 1:34 pm

baki wrote:
Shot Clock wrote:
At this point in the thread there's no way you can be this ignorant of the 80's Rockets situation. You have to be trolling.


Why do some people feel the need to get personal?


I guess it's personal because at this point your posts are so baseless there are only a few explanations for them. You seem to be willfully misrepresenting the facts or are ignorant of them.

He even faked an injury and asked to be traded because he didn't think the Rockets had a chance at winning the championship. He threw in the towel on Houston, not once but twice.


You say he "faked an injury" - fact is he was in a dispute with the inept ownership and the owner accused him of faking an injury with no evidence. The doc had cleared him to play but during those days diagnosing injuries wasn't as easy. The equivalent would be Reinsdorf coming out and saying Rose was faking an injury in the media. It just wouldn't happen today. Ownership wouldn't be that stupid.

You say "asked to be traded because he didn't think the Rockets had a chance at winning the championship" - Fact is that the trade demand came in response to this media accusation. Nothing to do with winning a title.

I'm sure some of this is due to my inability to decipher what you are trying to say. I suspect English isn't your first language and I can't hold that against you as beyond my first language I can hardly put a thought together.

All great points, only thing different I would say is that Houston had some quality players prior to their championship run to have been a good team (Otis Thorpe, Ken Smith, Maxwell and much earlier with Sampson and McCray).


Not sure what you are getting at here. Leaving Sampson out of the discussion, the other 4 have a combined 1 All Star games among them. Thorpe was a solid player but he wasn't a second star. Houston was always in the hunt to find a decent PG.

After all, he was the first pick of the 1984 draft BEFORE Jordan so he had a lot to live up to (that same draft also happened to get Otis Thorpe as the 9th pick). In addition he also had 1983 1st pick Ralph Sampson and 3rd pick Rodney McCray. Those 2 years (1983/1984) had some of the best players coming out of them and they made NBA finals.


I really struggle to understand what you are trying to say here so I'll limit my comments to the bolded section.

So Ralph was first, we know that. Not sure why Rodney was a big deal. He was a good defender but that's it. Did you know the team wanted to pick Drexler instead of McCray but the coach insisted on Rodney? Draft pick position doesn't equate to talent level.

When you have that much team potentials riding early in your career you would think that he would have tasted success a lot faster, so I say his attitude problem and ego was probably a strong hindrance in Houston's early chance for a championship run.


Then you go off on another baseless assumption. How does going to the Finals in your second year show him being a hindrance for a championship run?

His team that went to the Finals consisted of the following players contributing significant minutes

Sampson*
McCray
Hakeem
Lloyd*
Lucas*

Reid (asked to play PG when all their PG went out)
Peterson
Wiggins*

By the next season their talented young tagteam SG's Lloyd/Wiggins tested positive and were suspended. Lucas was gone and tested positive but avoided a suspension by taking the rehab route. Sampson's body broke down and he was never the same. They had just lost most of their core team. You don't recover from that overnight.

But according to you, if he had a better attitude they'd have don't more during that period.
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#349 » by Shot Clock » Tue Jul 1, 2014 1:39 pm

Baller2014 wrote:Shot Clock continues to disregard the many pages of analysis about Hakeem myself and others provided I see. Shot Clock, a mountain of evidence was provided about the many solid to good support casts Hakeem had, please go back and read it.


I think you have drawn the wrong conclusion. I disregard most of the "evidence" because it's too weak to bother replying to. Every now and then I can't ignore the fact that some of it is so bad it needs to be addressed.
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#350 » by Baller2014 » Tue Jul 1, 2014 1:48 pm

If you're just going to ignore most of the posts that point out Hakeem's flaws, I'm not sure there's a lot of point you continuing to post on the thread. I mean, it's a bit one sided a discussion isn't it. You assert something, we provide a tonne of evidence to prove you wrong, and you just ignore it and repeat the same assertion 5 pages later. That's not an intelligent exchange of ideas, that's just you yelling at us.

I'm also not sure why you're trashing Rodney McCray. He was a good player. Not that he was on most of the teams I've been focusing on (late 80's early 90's), but then I cringed when I saw Rockets/Hakeem fans trash Otis Thorpe as "nothing" pages earlier, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#351 » by ShaqAttack3234 » Tue Jul 1, 2014 1:56 pm

baki wrote:When you have that much team potentials riding early in your career you would think that he would have tasted success a lot faster, so I say his attitude problem and ego was probably a strong hindrance in Houston's early chance for a championship run.


That's ridiculous. Yes, Houston seemed promising, but they exceeded expectations in '86, which was just Hakeem's 2nd year by beating the showtime Lakers who were heavy favorites with more talent than Houston with a roster that consisted of Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Cooper ect. to get to the finals where they lost to arguably the greatest team in NBA history. And they did that with point guard John Lucas not even playing in the playoffs because he left the team due to a cocaine relapse and was released by them in the postseason, which forced Robert Reid to play point forward for Houston during their playoff run. I mean, yeah, the '86 team had the great twin towers duo and a few really good supporting players, but that core didn't last long.

Sampson was obviously highly skilled for a player well over 7 feet with those hooks he'd shoot, his mid-range jumper, his passing from the high-post and he was a solid rebounder due to his size and would pretty much just play volleyball with Dream on the offensive glass giving them a huge advantage there. Though Sampson also had flaws. He only weighed about 230 pounds and really lacked strength, he was just a good enough ball-handler to try to do too much for a 7 footer and led to some careless turnovers, and he was still making too many of the rookie mistakes that resulted in turnovers and unnecessary fouls in his 3rd year, and Sampson's head wasn't always in the game. Despite the hype, it was clear by their second season together that Olajuwon was the one destined for true greatness and had firmly established himself as the man by their 2nd year together. That's not to take away from Sampson, though. He was clearly a hall of fame talent, and had he stayed healthy, probably would have been a hall of famer based on his NBA career as opposed to his college career with averages of 21/11/3/2 on 51% shooting through his first 3 years with an all-nba second team selection and a finals appearance under his belt.

They also had a nice cast around the towers with a veteran like Robert Reid who had been on the '81 finals team and stepped up big in the '86 playoffs filling in as a point forward to average 15/4/7, but the young players, even around the towers really make you wonder what could have been. Rodney McCray was an excellent all around player, particularly for his defense, but a great rebounder at the 3, and he was also a very efficient scorer who was good for about 15 ppg, and topped the 5 apg mark one season. Lewis Lloyd was a very talented offensive player with excellent size who from what I've seen excelled in the open court, had a great touch on his mid-range jumper and averaged 17/4/4 on 53% shooting for the '86 team.

I don't think Dream underachieved at all during those early years. In Sampson's rookie year, the year before Dream arrived, Houston had gone just 29-53 and they had the 7th worst defense in the league, but Dream replaced Caldwell Jones in his rookie year who had always been a very good defensive center and Houston improved to 48-34, had a top 4 defense and made the playoffs. There were other changes to the roster, but Dream was clearly the biggest difference.

That team just fell apart after '86. Sampson missed nearly half the season with injuries in '87, didn't play nearly as well as his first 3 years as he wasn't in all-star form and continued struggling with injuries in '88 as Houston finally traded him in December. Both Lewis Lloyd were suspended for a couple of years for cocaine early in the '87 season and they traded Rodney McCray with Jim Petersen to Sacramento prior to the '89 season, though at least they got Otis Thorpe in return.

That's the thing, the one season we got to see that team with all of the great talent, they got to the finals upsetting a Laker team that had won the previous championship and would win the 2 after that. That team definitely seemed like a future championship team and it's extremely disappointing we'll never how they turned out, but considering how short of time Hakeem had with that team and how early in his career it was, I definitely wouldn't expect more success, and certainly not a title. It's impressive that Dream even led the '87 team to a record over .500 and got to the second round of the playoffs considering Sampson missed half the season with injuries in addition to the suspensions to Loyd and Wiggins. Dream also anchored a top 3 defense that year, and did everything in his power in the WCSF averaging 30.5 ppg, 12.7 rpg and 3.8 bpg on 60.3 FG% and 63.8 TS% including 49/25 with 6 blocks in a 3 point double OT loss in game 6, coming ridiculously close to pretty much single-handedly pushing that series to 7.

As mentioned, that was the last year with that core, and with context, it pretty much ended up as Dream carrying the team. After that, Houston did a poor job putting a contending team around him. It'd be rare to have such a promising young core fall apart so suddenly and build another contender overnight. It took Houston over half a decade, though they had quite a bit of their '94 championship core in the early 90's, they just didn't have a coach who properly utilized it, put it a system that worked and was a championship-caliber coach until Rudy T's first full season in '93, when they almost instantly became a legitimate title contender.
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#352 » by Baller2014 » Tue Jul 1, 2014 2:04 pm

Again with this focus on one season in the mid 80's when there were drug issues. I spent a tonne of time looking at some of the seasons where Hakeem had plenty of help in the late 80's and early 90's, and it's more or less been ignored. Hakeem wasn't losing to great teams these years either (the X-Man Sonics twice, the Blackman Mavs, the young Payton Sonics, not even making the playoffs in 92, etc), and in the years he was it was because he'd failed to lead the Rockets to a better record in the regular season. Don't win 41 games and you won't have to play the showtime Lakers in the 1st round. The coaching excuse is weak, not just because he had Fitch before Chaney, but because a) Chaney was coach of the year, b) it wasn't like there was some magic turn right away around when Rudy took over, and c) it doesn't even matter. Guys are judged on the careers they actually had, not the ones they might have had if circumstances had been more favourable. Even if it were true that no coach truly figured out how to get Hakeem to utilized his full potential until 1993, what of it? He still never actually played at the level he did when utilised better until 93 (assuming this only for the sake of argument).
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#353 » by G35 » Tue Jul 1, 2014 2:33 pm

Shot Clock wrote:
Baller2014 wrote:Shot Clock continues to disregard the many pages of analysis about Hakeem myself and others provided I see. Shot Clock, a mountain of evidence was provided about the many solid to good support casts Hakeem had, please go back and read it.


I think you have drawn the wrong conclusion. I disregard most of the "evidence" because it's too weak to bother replying to. Every now and then I can't ignore the fact that some of it is so bad it needs to be addressed.



How can you tell someone to go back and look at "many pages of evidence" but then arbitrarily disregard any opposing evidence? In your view it may be bad but to others it may be critical. This is one of the major problems in these debates is that some people think by repeatedly affirming something makes it true or by repeatedly denouncing something makes it untrue......
I'm so tired of the typical......
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#354 » by Shot Clock » Tue Jul 1, 2014 2:52 pm

G35 wrote:
Shot Clock wrote:
Baller2014 wrote:Shot Clock continues to disregard the many pages of analysis about Hakeem myself and others provided I see. Shot Clock, a mountain of evidence was provided about the many solid to good support casts Hakeem had, please go back and read it.


I think you have drawn the wrong conclusion. I disregard most of the "evidence" because it's too weak to bother replying to. Every now and then I can't ignore the fact that some of it is so bad it needs to be addressed.



How can you tell someone to go back and look at "many pages of evidence" but then arbitrarily disregard any opposing evidence? In your view it may be bad but to others it may be critical. This is one of the major problems in these debates is that some people think by repeatedly affirming something makes it true or by repeatedly denouncing something makes it untrue......


Because there's a couple of them that have been shredded continuously for making claims with no evidence. Just baseless claims that have been dissected. It's not just me that has a problem with them they've been called out by others too.

**btw it isn't me constantly saying go back and look at the "many pages of evidence", it's the other side of this. Yet they rarely put up any evidence that holds up for a second. I really don't think some of these guys were even born back then by their arguments.

The Shaq thing was hilarious. Multiple examples were posted of Shaq having suffered injuries during the SAS series and the only evidence given besides their opinion was

Baller2014 wrote:There is nothing to suggest that the injuries were especially bad in the Spurs series, that is pure assertion on your part. He was said to have the same issues in the SacTown series and the playoffs/season generally, and he had no problem in any of those series. Indeed, the article you got those quotes from (which you didn't link to, I suspect for this very reason) makes that point repeatedly:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=au
"From what I can tell, he hasn't been himself," forward Rick Fox said. "But that's something we've dealt with all year. We came to grips with that a long time ago."


"He has a lot going on," guard Derek Fisher said. "When you're struggling physically, it affects you mentally. We've understood all year long we haven't been dealing with the A-list, No. 1 Shaquille O'Neal. We know everything's bothering him, we definitely understand that."

Jackson also criticises Shaq's lack of effort (a frequent criticism in Shaq's career).

We heard the same stuff in the Kings series, in the very article linked earlier in this thread. "Yeh, Shaq's ailing man" his team said after splitting the first two games v.s the Kings. "Ailing Shaq" had averaged 30.5ppg and 10.5rpg on awesome efficiency over the first two games.


Why respond to this? None of this addresses the issue that Shaq suffered new injuries. It just confirms he had injuries all season long that the team was dealing with. I posted direct statements about the condition of his finger etc. The "counter evidence" doesn't even counter it. 'Phil called him out for his effort' yes and Shaq responded with a comment about Phil knowing how good his sprained ankle was.

I'm not wasting time with responding to this weak stuff. It just keeps coming back.
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#355 » by Baller2014 » Tue Jul 1, 2014 3:00 pm

It's like you didn't read my post. Nobody disagreed Shaq, as usual, had ongoing, niggling injuries... it's just he always had those, and his own team admits as much; "Shaq's walking wounded... as usual" was their sentiment. What was asserted, with no evidence whatever, was that he was especially injured in the Spurs series, and not in the other series... and there's no evidence for that at all, it's pure assertion and speculation. Some of the articles linked to in the discussion are from the next series in fact, including those quotes above, which happened after these "new" injuries. So the only quotes we have are of people telling us Shaq was still hurt in the Kings series. Yet the claim is that he was healthier in the Kings series than the Spurs series... a claim based on nothing but assertion and wild speculation. Evidence would be something like the Lakers doctor (or a player) saying "Shaq was really badly effected by injuries in the 2nd round, but now he's back to normal". Instead they're basically saying the opposite to that.
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#356 » by ShaqAttack3234 » Tue Jul 1, 2014 3:32 pm

Baller2014 wrote:Again with this focus on one season in the mid 80's when there were drug issues. I spent a tonne of time looking at some of the seasons where Hakeem had plenty of help in the late 80's and early 90's, and it's more or less been ignored. Hakeem wasn't losing to great teams these years either (the X-Man Sonics twice, the Blackman Mavs, the young Payton Sonics, not even making the playoffs in 92, etc), and in the years he was it was because he'd failed to lead the Rockets to a better record in the regular season. Don't win 41 games and you won't have to play the showtime Lakers in the 1st round. The coaching excuse is weak, not just because he had Fitch before Chaney, but because a) Chaney was coach of the year, b) it wasn't like there was some magic turn right away around when Rudy took over, and c) it doesn't even matter. Guys are judged on the careers they actually had, not the ones they might have had if circumstances had been more favourable. Even if it were true that no coach truly figured out how to get Hakeem to utilized his full potential until 1993, what of it? He still never actually played at the level he did when utilised better until 93 (assuming this only for the sake of argument).


The "Blackman Mavs?" Stop being disingenuous. In addition to Rolando Blackman, that team was loaded with talent such as Mark Aguirre, Derek Harper, Sam Perkins and Roy Tarpley in their primes, and additional talent such as a young Detlef Schrempf on the bench. That team took a Laker team that went on to win their 2nd straight title that year to 7 games in the WCF. Not only was that team with pretty stacked and extremely talented, but they were a damn good team who were a game from knocking off the champs and getting to the finals. By the way, what did Hakeem do in that series? He had 41/26 with 4 blocks in the Rockets lone win in game 2, 40/15 on 16/24 shooting and 8/8 from the line in the elimination game 4 and he averaged 37.5 ppg, 16.8 rpg, 2.8 bpg and 2.3 spg on 57.1 FG% and 64.1 TS% in the series.

The "young Payton Sonics?" That might be even more disingenuous because that was a truly stacked team, arguably the most talented team in the league. Payton was already a great defender and fine player, but he wasn't their best player. Seattle also had Shawn Kemp, Derrick McKey, Sam Perkins, Ricky Pierce, Eddie Johnson, Nate McMillan, Michael Cage and Dana Barros. That team was significantly more talented than Dream's Rockets, yet Dream took them to OT in game 7 of the WCSF, and Houston was really robbed by bad calls. By the way, Seattle not only led the league in margin of victory, but took a 62 win Suns team to game 7 of the WCF.

It's hilarious how you're overrating Hakeem's mediocre late 80's/early 90's teams saying he had plenty of help considering your ridiculous description of some of Duncan's teams, then combined with your massive underrating of some of his opponents and I'm at a loss for words. I don't even know how someone could get that biased.

By the way, Houston missed the playoffs by 1 game in '92, and that was only because they were 2-10 without him, but 40-30 with him.

I have to laugh at you bringing up Cheney's coach of the year considering we've seen guys like Mike Brown and Scott Brooks voted coach of the year. Even Dream pretty much said Cheney wasn't a good enough coach.

Shot Clock wrote:Because there's a couple of them that have been shredded continuously for making claims with no evidence. Just baseless claims that have been dissected. It's not just me that has a problem with them they've been called out by others too.

**btw it isn't me constantly saying go back and look at the "many pages of evidence", it's the other side of this. Yet they rarely put up any evidence that holds up for a second. I really don't think some of these guys were even born back then by their arguments.

The Shaq thing was hilarious. Multiple examples were posted of Shaq having suffered injuries during the SAS series and the only evidence given besides their opinion was

Why respond to this? None of this addresses the issue that Shaq suffered new injuries. It just confirms he had injuries all season long that the team was dealing with. I posted direct statements about the condition of his finger etc. The "counter evidence" doesn't even counter it. 'Phil called him out for his effort' yes and Shaq responded with a comment about Phil knowing how good his sprained ankle was.

I'm not wasting time with responding to this weak stuff. It just keeps coming back.


Don't waste any more of your time with Baller2014. You've done a great job backing your argument up, but he's just too biased.
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#357 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Tue Jul 1, 2014 3:56 pm

Shot Clock wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Never seen a debate this close on Realgm before. We are talking almost 100 votes and the poll is tied up. Two evenly matched players.


One player was playing when most of the voters were likely not even around.

The other still has the Dirk effect on him of a title win.

It's not a Dirkesque run, so I don't think it will have to much of an effect on Duncan's ranking.
On the other hand, Hakeem is a very tricky player to rate and very easy to overrate for the younger people who didn't "live" his career at least from the early 90s.
On paper he's basically the perfect player, offense, defense, athletic ability, quickness, very few players give you an impression of absolute excellence out of highlight reels. Duncan on the other hand is a player that can be easily underrated, when talking about peak play.
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#358 » by Shot Clock » Tue Jul 1, 2014 4:19 pm

Baller2014 wrote:Again with this focus on one season in the mid 80's when there were drug issues. I spent a tonne of time looking at some of the seasons where Hakeem had plenty of help in the late 80's and early 90's,


Here you go. I scanned some articles from the time period. Feel free to educate yourself of how his "plenty of help" was viewed back then. The last 2 links are the most detailed.

Complete Handbook of Pro Basketball 1989

http://i61.tinypic.com/id680h.jpg

Sport Magazine November 1989
http://i62.tinypic.com/rwntat.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/315egsj.jpg


Sporting News Pro Basketball yearbook 1989-90
http://i59.tinypic.com/2ajcg2d.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/70u9aw.jpg
anyone involved in that meddling to justice”. NO COLLUSION

- DJT
microfib4thewin
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#359 » by microfib4thewin » Tue Jul 1, 2014 5:04 pm

Shaq dealt with nagging injuries all the time. I have a hard time believing that Shaq not playing well in the 2002 WCSF is purely coming from his health.
Shot Clock
RealGM
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Re: Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan - Start a franchise 

Post#360 » by Shot Clock » Tue Jul 1, 2014 5:21 pm

microfib4thewin wrote:Shaq dealt with nagging injuries all the time. I have a hard time believing that Shaq not playing well in the 2002 WCSF is purely coming from his health.


Ok well you got me there. I can't refute anything you presented.
anyone involved in that meddling to justice”. NO COLLUSION

- DJT

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