The Stephen Curry Thread (2015-16 Pt. 2)

[Doctor MJ]

The video doesn't show Curry defending well for the most part. Most of the plays, he gets absolutely blown by and then Westbrook misses a gimme play or the help defense contests the shot. Also some of the plays, Curry wasn't even close to Westbrook so I don't know how Curry was counted as "defending" him on those plays

You talking about bballbreakdown's video? Because when I watch that what I see is that Westbrook basically isn't getting swishes. Sometimes it rattles in, sometimes it rattles out, but in no way can you see Westbrook is getting easy shots because of Curry.

[bigboi]

The video doesn't show Curry defending well for the most part. Most of the plays, he gets absolutely blown by and then Westbrook misses a gimme play or the help defense contests the shot. Also some of the plays, Curry wasn't even close to Westbrook so I don't know how Curry was counted as "defending" him on those plays

You talking about bballbreakdown's video? Because when I watch that what I see is that Westbrook basically isn't getting swishes. Sometimes it rattles in, sometimes it rattles out, but in no way can you see Westbrook is getting easy shots because of Curry.

He is blowing past Curry almost every play simple as that. You can't consider Curry to be playing good defense when he's getting blown by almost every play and even when he's not, I see only a handful of times where he has a good contest

[Doctor MJ]

The video doesn't show Curry defending well for the most part. Most of the plays, he gets absolutely blown by and then Westbrook misses a gimme play or the help defense contests the shot. Also some of the plays, Curry wasn't even close to Westbrook so I don't know how Curry was counted as "defending" him on those plays

You talking about bballbreakdown's video? Because when I watch that what I see is that Westbrook basically isn't getting swishes. Sometimes it rattles in, sometimes it rattles out, but in no way can you see Westbrook is getting easy shots because of Curry.

He is blowing past Curry almost every play simple as that. You can't consider Curry to be playing good defense when he's getting blown by almost every play and even when he's not, I see only a handful of times where he has a good contest

You're clearly fixated on some almost-moral judgment here.

What I'm saying is that Golden State is already forcing Westbrook to take shots he can't hit that well so clearly focusing on whoever's guarding Westbrook is missing the point. GS can live with Westbrook taking shots like that. Other things are happening they can't live with.

[therealbig3]

I don't see what you're even talking about, Curry is not getting blown by on every play, pretty much every shot Westbrook takes is a contested one.

And part of the defensive strategy is to let Westbrook drive into the teeth of the defense btw.

People are just so fixated on wanting Curry to be a poor defender that even when clear evidence is presented that shows he's doing a good job on Westbrook (which was also the case during the RS), people are still trying to find excuses why it's not the case. Jeez, just give credit where it's due.

[bigboi]

I don't see what you're even talking about, Curry is not getting blown by on every play, pretty much every shot Westbrook takes is a contested one.

And part of the defensive strategy is to let Westbrook drive into the teeth of the defense btw.

People are just so fixated on wanting Curry to be a poor defender that even when clear evidence is presented that shows he's doing a good job on Westbrook (which was also the case during the RS), people are still trying to find excuses why it's not the case. Jeez, just give credit where it's due.

The defensive strategy is to drive Westbrook into the the teeth of the defense. You know damn well that makes zero sense since Westbrook is practically getting to the lane at will, which is what he's best at. And do you really want me to count the amount of plays that Curry got blown by

[bigboi]

You talking about bballbreakdown's video? Because when I watch that what I see is that Westbrook basically isn't getting swishes. Sometimes it rattles in, sometimes it rattles out, but in no way can you see Westbrook is getting easy shots because of Curry.

He is blowing past Curry almost every play simple as that. You can't consider Curry to be playing good defense when he's getting blown by almost every play and even when he's not, I see only a handful of times where he has a good contest

You're clearly fixated on some almost-moral judgment here.

What I'm saying is that Golden State is already forcing Westbrook to take shots he can't hit that well so clearly focusing on whoever's guarding Westbrook is missing the point. GS can live with Westbrook taking shots like that. Other things are happening they can't live with.

Nevermind then, we're not even debating the same points. I'm talking about the stat not really being representative of how Curry plays defense and Curry really is an average defender masked by an amazing team defense

[kayess]

therealbig3, Doc - fair enough, but did you see his D in game 4, for example? Him getting blown by every possession is an exaggeration, to be sure, but if offense isn't as cut and dry as FG%, it follows that defense isn't as simple, too - you could be playing bad defense and the other guy's just missing open shots.

What does primary defender even mean in this context - he contested the shot, he started the possession on Russell, ...?

[therealbig3]

therealbig3, Doc - fair enough, but did you see his D in game 4, for example? Him getting blown by every possession is an exaggeration, to be sure, but if offense isn't as cut and dry as FG%, it follows that defense isn't as simple, too - you could be playing bad defense and the other guy's just missing open shots.

What does primary defender even mean in this context - he contested the shot, he started the possession on Russell, ...?

With all due respect, this kind of logic is a strawman argument to what my point really was...OF COURSE opponent FG% doesn't tell the whole story...my entire point was that A. Curry is a good defender, and that's backed up by video evidence and defensive stats like the graphic I posted, and B. kind of along the same point, Westbrook is not dominating Curry and has actually struggled with his shooting when defended by him.

That does not mean I'm saying that Curry is the only reason why Westbrook isn't making his shots against him, nor does it mean that Curry is an elite defender...I simply think he's a very smart and pesky defender with good hands, who moves his feet. That kind of player is always going to be a good defender. But yes, he's athletically limited, especially when compared to a guy like Westbrook. But he's holding his own and is doing fine. That's what that graphic SUPPORTS, but doesn't PROVE.

I mean, there's just no evidence for Curry simply being an average defender masked by a great defensive system, like what another poster is trying to say...cherry picking games when an opposing player went off isn't evidence for anything, because there are just as many games when an opposing player got shut down. When opposing PGs have great games, the people that don't like Curry will say that proves he's not a good defender. When opposing PGs have bad games, the people that don't like Curry will say he's not even guarding them and won't give him any credit. So which is it? Is he guarding them, or isn't he? Because if he is, then he deserves credit when opposing PGs play like crap too, and not just criticized for the occasional times they go off. If he's not guarding them, then those occasional times they go off can't be blamed on him.

Video analysis and defensive stats all point to Curry being a good defender. So to me, it's Occam's Razor...the most likely explanation is that he's a good defender.

[kayess]

therealbig3, Doc - fair enough, but did you see his D in game 4, for example? Him getting blown by every possession is an exaggeration, to be sure, but if offense isn't as cut and dry as FG%, it follows that defense isn't as simple, too - you could be playing bad defense and the other guy's just missing open shots.

What does primary defender even mean in this context - he contested the shot, he started the possession on Russell, ...?

With all due respect, this kind of logic is a strawman argument to what my point really was...OF COURSE opponent FG% doesn't tell the whole story...my entire point was that A. Curry is a good defender, and that's backed up by video evidence and defensive stats like the graphic I posted, and B. kind of along the same point, Westbrook is not dominating Curry and has actually struggled with his shooting when defended by him.

That does not mean I'm saying that Curry is the only reason why Westbrook isn't making his shots against him, nor does it mean that Curry is an elite defender...I simply think he's a very smart and pesky defender with good hands, who moves his feet. That kind of player is always going to be a good defender. But yes, he's athletically limited, especially when compared to a guy like Westbrook. But he's holding his own and is doing fine. That's what that graphic SUPPORTS, but doesn't PROVE.

I mean, there's just no evidence for Curry simply being an average defender masked by a great defensive system, like what another poster is trying to say...cherry picking games when an opposing player went off isn't evidence for anything, because there are just as many games when an opposing player got shut down. When opposing PGs have great games, the people that don't like Curry will say that proves he's not a good defender. When opposing PGs have bad games, the people that don't like Curry will say he's not even guarding them and won't give him any credit. So which is it? Is he guarding them, or isn't he? Because if he is, then he deserves credit when opposing PGs play like crap too, and not just criticized for the occasional times they go off. If he's not guarding them, then those occasional times they go off can't be blamed on him.

Video analysis and defensive stats all point to Curry being a good defender. So to me, it's Occam's Razor...the most likely explanation is that he's a good defender.

I just skimmed through the thread and saw the FG% graphic, so I thought that was what you were talking about (which I now see that you acknowledge in your posts anyway).

How is it a strawman when I prefaced my post by agreeing with what you were saying (hence, "fair enough"), but wanted to add that you revisit Game 4 as well - Russ didn't shoot all that well, but there was just no effort at times, which is appalling enough - but when you're about to be down 3-1? None of which is to say Curry's a bad defender, but to add more evidence, more nuance to the discussion.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill here, with all due respect. If there was a wording issue in my post you could point out, I'd be happy to tweak my writing and whatnot, but I've reread it a couple of times and I just don't see how it could be taken to be me cherrypicking, or whatever.

Also, Curry being a good defender, and him defending poorly this series, or in certain games, aren't mutually exclusive

[therealbig3]

therealbig3, Doc - fair enough, but did you see his D in game 4, for example? Him getting blown by every possession is an exaggeration, to be sure, but if offense isn't as cut and dry as FG%, it follows that defense isn't as simple, too - you could be playing bad defense and the other guy's just missing open shots.

What does primary defender even mean in this context - he contested the shot, he started the possession on Russell, ...?

With all due respect, this kind of logic is a strawman argument to what my point really was...OF COURSE opponent FG% doesn't tell the whole story...my entire point was that A. Curry is a good defender, and that's backed up by video evidence and defensive stats like the graphic I posted, and B. kind of along the same point, Westbrook is not dominating Curry and has actually struggled with his shooting when defended by him.

That does not mean I'm saying that Curry is the only reason why Westbrook isn't making his shots against him, nor does it mean that Curry is an elite defender...I simply think he's a very smart and pesky defender with good hands, who moves his feet. That kind of player is always going to be a good defender. But yes, he's athletically limited, especially when compared to a guy like Westbrook. But he's holding his own and is doing fine. That's what that graphic SUPPORTS, but doesn't PROVE.

I mean, there's just no evidence for Curry simply being an average defender masked by a great defensive system, like what another poster is trying to say...cherry picking games when an opposing player went off isn't evidence for anything, because there are just as many games when an opposing player got shut down. When opposing PGs have great games, the people that don't like Curry will say that proves he's not a good defender. When opposing PGs have bad games, the people that don't like Curry will say he's not even guarding them and won't give him any credit. So which is it? Is he guarding them, or isn't he? Because if he is, then he deserves credit when opposing PGs play like crap too, and not just criticized for the occasional times they go off. If he's not guarding them, then those occasional times they go off can't be blamed on him.

Video analysis and defensive stats all point to Curry being a good defender. So to me, it's Occam's Razor...the most likely explanation is that he's a good defender.

I just skimmed through the thread and saw the FG% graphic, so I thought that was what you were talking about (which I now see that you acknowledge in your posts anyway).

How is it a strawman when I prefaced my post by agreeing with what you were saying (hence, "fair enough"), but wanted to add that you revisit Game 4 as well - Russ didn't shoot all that well, but there was just no effort at times, which is appalling enough - but when you're about to be down 3-1? None of which is to say Curry's a bad defender, but to add more evidence, more nuance to the discussion.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill here, with all due respect. If there was a wording issue in my post you could point out, I'd be happy to tweak my writing and whatnot, but I've reread it a couple of times and I just don't see how it could be taken to be me cherrypicking, or whatever.

Also, Curry being a good defender, and him defending poorly this series, or in certain games, aren't mutually exclusive

I apologize, I kind of went after your post, but my frustration wasn't really directed at you so much as it was in general, because other posters also kept bringing up how that graphic doesn't prove anything and it's a bad way to show that Curry is a good defender, etc. And the whole point about cherry picking is actually with regards to the general overall criticism that Curry most often gets with regards to his defense.

My bad. My rant wasn't really directed at you, it was more of an in-general comment against some of the criticisms I've read here and on the GB, and your post just happened to bring up the point about FG% that I've been wanting to respond to, and like I said, I ended up ranting lol.

[kayess]

With all due respect, this kind of logic is a strawman argument to what my point really was...OF COURSE opponent FG% doesn't tell the whole story...my entire point was that A. Curry is a good defender, and that's backed up by video evidence and defensive stats like the graphic I posted, and B. kind of along the same point, Westbrook is not dominating Curry and has actually struggled with his shooting when defended by him.

That does not mean I'm saying that Curry is the only reason why Westbrook isn't making his shots against him, nor does it mean that Curry is an elite defender...I simply think he's a very smart and pesky defender with good hands, who moves his feet. That kind of player is always going to be a good defender. But yes, he's athletically limited, especially when compared to a guy like Westbrook. But he's holding his own and is doing fine. That's what that graphic SUPPORTS, but doesn't PROVE.

I mean, there's just no evidence for Curry simply being an average defender masked by a great defensive system, like what another poster is trying to say...cherry picking games when an opposing player went off isn't evidence for anything, because there are just as many games when an opposing player got shut down. When opposing PGs have great games, the people that don't like Curry will say that proves he's not a good defender. When opposing PGs have bad games, the people that don't like Curry will say he's not even guarding them and won't give him any credit. So which is it? Is he guarding them, or isn't he? Because if he is, then he deserves credit when opposing PGs play like crap too, and not just criticized for the occasional times they go off. If he's not guarding them, then those occasional times they go off can't be blamed on him.

Video analysis and defensive stats all point to Curry being a good defender. So to me, it's Occam's Razor...the most likely explanation is that he's a good defender.

I just skimmed through the thread and saw the FG% graphic, so I thought that was what you were talking about (which I now see that you acknowledge in your posts anyway).

How is it a strawman when I prefaced my post by agreeing with what you were saying (hence, "fair enough"), but wanted to add that you revisit Game 4 as well - Russ didn't shoot all that well, but there was just no effort at times, which is appalling enough - but when you're about to be down 3-1? None of which is to say Curry's a bad defender, but to add more evidence, more nuance to the discussion.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill here, with all due respect. If there was a wording issue in my post you could point out, I'd be happy to tweak my writing and whatnot, but I've reread it a couple of times and I just don't see how it could be taken to be me cherrypicking, or whatever.

Also, Curry being a good defender, and him defending poorly this series, or in certain games, aren't mutually exclusive

I apologize, I kind of went after your post, but my frustration wasn't really directed at you so much as it was in general, because other posters also kept bringing up how that graphic doesn't prove anything and it's a bad way to show that Curry is a good defender, etc. And the whole point about cherry picking is actually with regards to the general overall criticism that Curry most often gets with regards to his defense.

My bad. My rant wasn't really directed at you, it was more of an in-general comment against some of the criticisms I've read here and on the GB, and your post just happened to bring up the point about FG% that I've been wanting to respond to, and like I said, I ended up ranting lol.

NP, I really wanted to be snarkier in my reply because I just couldn't see where you were coming from given what I posted, but decided against it and wanted to see if there was anything more to this.

[GSP]

Steph has done a solid job on Russ in half court no matter how u want to spin it. Obviously no one not named Lebron or Green maybe (Danny or Draymond) can have much of an impact defending Russ in transition where u have to most likely form a **** wall. Obviously it's not complete isolations leaving anyone on an island to defend Russ is stupid as hell but he's done in his job in their schemes. It's why the Hakeem/Robinson comparisons were way off/premature. Robinson saw more doubles and triples in that series since SA didn't have the shooters/spaces out as Hakeem who still def got the better of the one on one plays as overblown as it can be by some. Lot of ball left and despite his numbers Russ was pretty bad last night on offense and had the a poor defensive game as well. Steph defense on Russ was one of the main reasons I didn't buy the hurt excuse. Obviously he isn't 100 no one is, Adams has a hurt back, likely ankle issues, bloody noses, and 1 testicle and he's still played above his regular season game clearly.

Does anyone have insider? This seems interesting which according to it shows steph has played faster than normal

http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/15742294/is-stephen-curry-knee-slowing-nba

[therealbig3]

I don't think he's hurt. I think he's out of shape because of the missed time though.

[2klegend]

What is this fixated Westbrook fg% about? Westbrook had never been a guy who care about his efficiency. His playoff ts% so far is 52% which is common for him. Westbrook has a mentality that he will shoot if he feel like it, regardless of who defending him. Curry is doing an okayish job. Westbrook pretty much have his way with him. And without the help defense, it's pretty clear Westbrook destroy him. Before last night game, Curry is a -0.3 on the defensive RAM. He's up a bit now to 0.5. Pretty average at best.

[lorak]

Does anyone have insider? This seems interesting which according to it shows steph has played faster than normal

http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/15742294/is-stephen-curry-knee-slowing-nba

But the interesting thing is that Curry is playing faster on average now than he did in the regular season. Actually, his overall speed in the past two losses is higher than it was in the 2015 playoffs when Golden State won the title.

Here are the numbers.

Curry averaged 4.45 miles per hour in Game 3 and 4.47 mph in Game 4, according to SportVU data here at ESPN. It turns out those numbers are slightly faster than his average overall speed in the postseason (4.42 mph) and regular season (4.32 mph).

So we can see, looking at the big picture, that he's playing faster than usual.

You might be thinking, "OK, but OKC plays faster. That's fudging the numbers." I checked into that too. Curry's speed in three regular-season matchups against the Thunder stood at just 4.28 mph. He's stepping on the gas more now.

To be clear, this doesn't mean that Curry isn't hurting, or that he has not slowed in some other more granular way. Perhaps it takes him longer to hit top speed, or maybe he's coasting at a higher speed simply because it's more painful for him to start and stop quickly. Also, overall speed doesn't entirely capture his quickness or his first step.

[RSCD3_]

Does anyone have insider? This seems interesting which according to it shows steph has played faster than normal

http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/15742294/is-stephen-curry-knee-slowing-nba

But the interesting thing is that Curry is playing faster on average now than he did in the regular season. Actually, his overall speed in the past two losses is higher than it was in the 2015 playoffs when Golden State won the title.

Here are the numbers.

Curry averaged 4.45 miles per hour in Game 3 and 4.47 mph in Game 4, according to SportVU data here at ESPN. It turns out those numbers are slightly faster than his average overall speed in the postseason (4.42 mph) and regular season (4.32 mph).

So we can see, looking at the big picture, that he's playing faster than usual.

You might be thinking, "OK, but OKC plays faster. That's fudging the numbers." I checked into that too. Curry's speed in three regular-season matchups against the Thunder stood at just 4.28 mph. He's stepping on the gas more now.

To be clear, this doesn't mean that Curry isn't hurting, or that he has not slowed in some other more granular way. Perhaps it takes him longer to hit top speed, or maybe he's coasting at a higher speed simply because it's more painful for him to start and stop quickly. Also, overall speed doesn't entirely capture his quickness or his first step.

Well golden state has been using him a lot more off ball vs the thunder and he has been hesitant to let it fly vs Westbrook in one on one's ( the warriors are setting much softer screens ( notice how nobody is complaining about that in the Game threads lol ) ) so he's running off ball a lot more to get easier looks.

That's due to him being outta shape or outta rhythm which is affecting his ability as a mobile flamethrower from anywhere. And that's why where not seeing the same offensive domination as before because being an on ball flamethrower made defenders forced to blitz him.

With him being more gun shy / less accurate and draymond thinking he's Dwight Howard ( he's gone to the post way too much in favor of the unstoppable pick and roll they had together )...


....OKC has been able to defend him more conservatively

[RSCD3_]

Andrew Bogut is kendrick perkins on offense

[JordansBulls]

OKC choking at the end after dominating entire game.

[Nbafanatic]

And the dream lives on!! Thanks, Curry!

[nikomCH]

Are we really gonna see two 3-1 leads slip away 2 years in a row? Crazy