2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[eminence]

Denver/Utah was a weird series, both of the guards were just on fire to a degree you don't see very often. Wouldn't take strong defensive takes away on either Gobert or Jokic.

[BelgradeNugget]

Nuggets defensive rating in the first 5 games in Utah series (before Harris come back): 127.4
Nuggets defensive rating in the last 2 games in Utah series and 5 games in Clippers series: 108.4

[MyUniBroDavis]

On jokic:

I havent watched the nuggets much outside of a few games against the jazz but the knock on him vs the others is always gonna be his defense. I mean he was kind of atrocious on D when i saw him and i remember dray did a segment on it to, he just really sucked at rotating. Has that changed?

- i dont like net rtg over small samples but jesus christ his defense is +23 lmfao

For as good as he is offensively, and to be perfectly honest i definately dont think hes been better than davis on that end so far, theres just kind of a huge gap on D

Lebrons not even a conversation really. Its really impressive how he handled gobert, but its kinda offset by being part of the opposing teams offensive gameplan too

It usualy takes more than a few games to form a good opinion. He is a much better defender than he showed in the first part of the Utah series. Was it due to having COVID before bubble or the Nuggets missing Harris it is questionable. The Nuggets and Jokic were much better defensively in the Clippers series, mostly due to more effort, better pnr defense (2 man game) better game plane...

Id have less trouble believing that if over the course of two series that the nuggets werent the worst defensive team with him on vs elite on defense with him off the floor, his defensive pipm being so bad its basically an outlier, and if the games against teh clippers werent a similar story, especially that horrid first one, which might have been as bad as any jazz one

Hes decent at positioning in certain coverages but a lack of athleticism and bad instincts as a rim protector hinder him heavily

[limbo]

LeBron
Kawhi
Harden
Giannis
AD
-
Luka
Jokic
Butler
Tatum
Lillard
-
Paul
Embiid
Gobert
Bam
Lowry

This is how i feel about my Top 15 right now.

Are your '-' used to separate tiers or simply every 5 players?

I was just doing it for every 5th player for visual purposes...

Tier-based would be more difficult to rank. I would need bigger PS sample sizes for some players.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Nuggets defensive rating in the first 5 games in Utah series (before Harris come back): 127.4
Nuggets defensive rating in the last 2 games in Utah series and 5 games in Clippers series: 108.4

Overall

Defensive rtg without jokic 99.3
Defensive rtg with jokic 120.4

Vs jazz

Defensive rtg without jokic 102
Defensive rtg with jokic 120.4

Vs clippers

Defensive rtg with jokic 110
Defensive rtg without jokic 90.4

I dont love raw on-off with small samples but with the film weve seen as well its just hard to see how anyone is arguing hes been a small positive on D or anytting

[BelgradeNugget]

Nuggets defensive rating in the first 5 games in Utah series (before Harris come back): 127.4
Nuggets defensive rating in the last 2 games in Utah series and 5 games in Clippers series: 108.4

Overall

Defensive rtg without jokic 99.3
Defensive rtg with jokic 120.4

Vs jazz

Defensive rtg without jokic 102
Defensive rtg with jokic 120.4

Vs clippers

Defensive rtg with jokic 110
Defensive rtg without jokic 90.4

I dont love raw on-off with small samples but with the film weve seen as well its just hard to see how anyone is arguing hes been a small positive on D or anytting

You know who has the second best defensive rating in the playoffs for Nuggets. Michael Porter Jr.
Now about the best one in Drtg among the Nuggets - Mason Plumlee. He averages 10 mins per game. In game 1 against Utah he comes in and commits 3 fouls in 5 mins. He had probably 0 Dfg in that time and puts Nuggets in bonus for the rest of 2Q. They must avoid fouls for the rest of the Q. Plumlee did his job. Defended for 5 mins and destroyed their defense for the rest of the way.
The worst Drtg - the Nuggets best defender (along with Harris) Millsap.
Whoever watched the Spurs series last year knows that Spurs were targeting Murray. Same as Portland. Utah/Clippers play pnr 80% of the time because all Nba teams play pnr 80% of the time. Saying that they play pnr to target Jokic is like saying Nuggets played pnr to target 2 times DPOY Gobert. Murray/Jokic combined for 58 ppg against Utah.
Small samples

[BelgradeNugget]

This is from another treat before Jokic cough COVID. Again if anyone of you played basketball after flu he knows that it can affect your energy level. Russ also had COVID before bubble we saw how he played in the POs

Recently I saw that Jokic vs Embiid is still an active discussion with some preferring Embiid because of Jokic' lack of defense. Now I know just looking at a stat doesn't paint the full picture but what surprises me is that Jokic grades out as pretty elite in both DWS and DBPM. This season Jokic is 12th in DWS (5th among centers behind Gobert, Brook Lopez, Drummond and Sabonis) and 9th in DBPM (2nd amond centers behind Brook Lopez). DWS and DBPM are pretty different at what they try to measure but both have Jokic as one of the best defenders in the league. It doesn't seem to be a fluke either as last year Jokic graded out even better, being 8th in DWS and 2nd in DBPM.

Do you think it is true that Jokic is actually a good defender or are these stats misleading here?

You can add:
DRPM Jokic is 5th among centers
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/9
NBA Math DPS Jokic is 4th in the league
https://nbamath.com/2019-20-nba-tpa/

Read on Twitter

It looks like he knows what he is doing on both sides on the court

[MyUniBroDavis]

Nuggets defensive rating in the first 5 games in Utah series (before Harris come back): 127.4
Nuggets defensive rating in the last 2 games in Utah series and 5 games in Clippers series: 108.4

Overall

Defensive rtg without jokic 99.3
Defensive rtg with jokic 120.4

Vs jazz

Defensive rtg without jokic 102
Defensive rtg with jokic 120.4

Vs clippers

Defensive rtg with jokic 110
Defensive rtg without jokic 90.4

I dont love raw on-off with small samples but with the film weve seen as well its just hard to see how anyone is arguing hes been a small positive on D or anytting

You know who has the second best defensive rating in the playoffs for Nuggets. Michael Porter Jr.
Now about the best one in Drtg among the Nuggets - Mason Plumlee. He averages 10 mins per game. In game 1 against Utah he comes in and commits 3 fouls in 5 mins. He had probably 0 Dfg in that time and puts Nuggets in bonus for the rest of 2Q. Thay must avoid fouls for the rest of the Q. Plumlee did his job. Defended for 5 mins and destroyed their defense for the rest of the way.
The worst Drtg - the Nuggets best defender (along with Harris) Millsap.
Whoever watched the Spurs series last year knows that Spurs were targeting Murray. Same as Portland. Utah/Clippers play pnr 80% of the time because all Nba teams play pnr 80% of the time. Saying that they play pnr to target Jokic is like saying Nuggets played pnr to target 2 times DPOY Gobert. Murray/Jokic combined for 58 ppg against Utah.
Small samples

1. Porter Jr has the second worst defensive rtg out of nuggets players that play minutes
2. Jokic has the worst defensive rtg
3. I mean, people were saying they were targetting him on here and on everywhere, there were segments on tnt about then targetting him, videos on youtube about it etc
4. Harris and millsap are both among the best in net def rtg for thise playing significant minutes, but also more impressive considering they play more mintt it es with jokic than some of the others

[MyUniBroDavis]

This is from another treat before Jokic cough COVID. Again if anyone of you played basketball after flu he knows that it can affect your energy level. Russ also had COVID before bubble we saw how he played in the POs

Recently I saw that Jokic vs Embiid is still an active discussion with some preferring Embiid because of Jokic' lack of defense. Now I know just looking at a stat doesn't paint the full picture but what surprises me is that Jokic grades out as pretty elite in both DWS and DBPM. This season Jokic is 12th in DWS (5th among centers behind Gobert, Brook Lopez, Drummond and Sabonis) and 9th in DBPM (2nd amond centers behind Brook Lopez). DWS and DBPM are pretty different at what they try to measure but both have Jokic as one of the best defenders in the league. It doesn't seem to be a fluke either as last year Jokic graded out even better, being 8th in DWS and 2nd in DBPM.

Do you think it is true that Jokic is actually a good defender or are these stats misleading here?

You can add:
DRPM Jokic is 5th among centers
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/9
NBA Math DPS Jokic is 4th in the league
https://nbamath.com/2019-20-nba-tpa/

Read on Twitter

It looks like he knows what he is doing on both sides on the court

https://stats.nba.com/players/roll-man/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=POSS&dir=1

It says hes in the 34th percentile and gives up more than the other guys here

Defensive win shares and defensive box plus minus are by all means useless

He wasnt playing through covid lol and wasnt he asymptotic?

Hes a decent defender that hasnt defended well in the playoffs, and can be targetted because he isnt great at rim protection or rotations, although hes generally decent at certain pick and roll coverages and his positioning on drop coverages is usally really solid although he drops too low, I dont see why thats not a fair statement based of how hes played

Hes generally good at pick and roll defense for certain coverages but fails in others, and that has shown to be able to be attacked in certain ways, i dont think you can blame covid since its happened with the clips too, and the fact that his defense on off is THAT bad is concerning when you analyze all the data together

In all honesty im pretty sure a more correct view is his defense is getting hated on too much while his offense is getting a bit too hyped up atm.

[BelgradeNugget]

Overall

Defensive rtg without jokic 99.3
Defensive rtg with jokic 120.4

Vs jazz

Defensive rtg without jokic 102
Defensive rtg with jokic 120.4

Vs clippers

Defensive rtg with jokic 110
Defensive rtg without jokic 90.4

I dont love raw on-off with small samples but with the film weve seen as well its just hard to see how anyone is arguing hes been a small positive on D or anytting

You know who has the second best defensive rating in the playoffs for Nuggets. Michael Porter Jr.
Now about the best one in Drtg among the Nuggets - Mason Plumlee. He averages 10 mins per game. In game 1 against Utah he comes in and commits 3 fouls in 5 mins. He had probably 0 Dfg in that time and puts Nuggets in bonus for the rest of 2Q. Thay must avoid fouls for the rest of the Q. Plumlee did his job. Defended for 5 mins and destroyed their defense for the rest of the way.
The worst Drtg - the Nuggets best defender (along with Harris) Millsap.
Whoever watched the Spurs series last year knows that Spurs were targeting Murray. Same as Portland. Utah/Clippers play pnr 80% of the time because all Nba teams play pnr 80% of the time. Saying that they play pnr to target Jokic is like saying Nuggets played pnr to target 2 times DPOY Gobert. Murray/Jokic combined for 58 ppg against Utah.
Small samples

1. Porter Jr has the second worst defensive rtg out of nuggets players that play minutes
2. Jokic has the worst defensive rtg
3. I mean, people were saying they were targetting him on here and on everywhere, there were segments on tnt about then targetting him, videos on youtube about it etc
4. Harris and millsap are both among the best in net def rtg for thise playing significant minutes, but also more impressive considering they play more mintt it es with jokic than some of the others

1. We were talking about the Nuggets defense in the playoffs. I gave you their defensive rating in the playoffs and try to explain to you why these numbers can be misleading and why a few games that you watched them play may be too same semple size.
https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*10&SeasonType=Playoffs&Season=2019-20&TeamID=1610612743
2. I never said he played trough COVID. Read again. I said after COVID. I never asked did you or anyone played through flu or influenza. It can affect your energy level after you are healthy again. Jokic said he was asymptomatic and didn't have any effect on him. If you know anything about him you will know that is exactly what he will say. Gobert said he had a lack of energy from time to time even 2 months after he tested negative. Jokic said he wasn't tired in game one of the Clippers series. Murray sad he was exhausted. Don't believe Jokic all the time.
3. Stats that I posted are before the bubble (on feb/26/2020). In the bubble he was even worst then in the first few games of the POs. Maybe it has something to do with COVID or not. Who knows.
3. You can say that DWS, DBPM, DRPM, DPS... or whatever are bad stats. But somehow if you look at the players listed at the top defensively we saw players that are somehow considered good except for Jokic who is listed at the top but is considered terrible.
4. I don't want to argue with you. I see you are a serious basketball fan. You simply didn't follow Jokic. I watched every Nuggets game in the last 3 years. Here are the facts: Jokic is terible at rim protection. He was bad on D in the bubble and at the start POs. He is much better than that and is above average due to his basketball IQ

Watch on YouTube

[freethedevil]

This series shows perfectly how limited wing defensive impact is. Kawhi is playing WAAAY better defense these playoffs than he did in 19. Kawhi was outright average overall in 19 and is elite this year. But it doesn't matter, because zubac and harrell are not gasol, they're not embid, they're not giannis, and they're nort ad.

Even against a team without a hyperdominant interior scorer, its all about the the rim.

[ardee]

Ok I take back my previous post, Jokic can absolutely crack the top 5. I guess I had just written off Denver in my head earlier today.

What an absolutely loaded season this is. Feels like one of those early 2000s years with Shaq-Kobe-Duncan-KG-Dirk-McGrady.

[freethedevil]

Nuggets defensive rating in the first 5 games in Utah series (before Harris come back): 127.4
Nuggets defensive rating in the last 2 games in Utah series and 5 games in Clippers series: 108.4

Overall

Defensive rtg without jokic 99.3
Defensive rtg with jokic 120.4

Vs jazz

Defensive rtg without jokic 102
Defensive rtg with jokic 120.4

Vs clippers

Defensive rtg with jokic 110
Defensive rtg without jokic 90.4

I dont love raw on-off with small samples but with the film weve seen as well its just hard to see how anyone is arguing hes been a small positive on D or anytting

TBF raw on//off said similar **** about playoff gobert, but then less noisy stats estimated him as like _4-5 when adjusting fo rlineups.

[freethedevil]

This is from another treat before Jokic cough COVID. Again if anyone of you played basketball after flu he knows that it can affect your energy level. Russ also had COVID before bubble we saw how he played in the POs

You can add:
DRPM Jokic is 5th among centers
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/9
NBA Math DPS Jokic is 4th in the league
https://nbamath.com/2019-20-nba-tpa/

Read on Twitter

It looks like he knows what he is doing on both sides on the court

https://stats.nba.com/players/roll-man/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=POSS&dir=1

It says hes in the 34th percentile and gives up more than the other guys here

Defensive win shares and defensive box plus minus are by all means useless

.

Man you can't be calling that useless and then turnaround with net rating. That's a westbrick.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Nuggets defensive rating in the first 5 games in Utah series (before Harris come back): 127.4
Nuggets defensive rating in the last 2 games in Utah series and 5 games in Clippers series: 108.4

Overall

Defensive rtg without jokic 99.3
Defensive rtg with jokic 120.4

Vs jazz

Defensive rtg without jokic 102
Defensive rtg with jokic 120.4

Vs clippers

Defensive rtg with jokic 110
Defensive rtg without jokic 90.4

I dont love raw on-off with small samples but with the film weve seen as well its just hard to see how anyone is arguing hes been a small positive on D or anytting

TBF raw on//off said similar **** about playoff gobert, but then less noisy stats estimated him as like _4-5 when adjusting fo rlineups.

The less noist stats paint jokic as worse though

[MyUniBroDavis]

You know who has the second best defensive rating in the playoffs for Nuggets. Michael Porter Jr.
Now about the best one in Drtg among the Nuggets - Mason Plumlee. He averages 10 mins per game. In game 1 against Utah he comes in and commits 3 fouls in 5 mins. He had probably 0 Dfg in that time and puts Nuggets in bonus for the rest of 2Q. Thay must avoid fouls for the rest of the Q. Plumlee did his job. Defended for 5 mins and destroyed their defense for the rest of the way.
The worst Drtg - the Nuggets best defender (along with Harris) Millsap.
Whoever watched the Spurs series last year knows that Spurs were targeting Murray. Same as Portland. Utah/Clippers play pnr 80% of the time because all Nba teams play pnr 80% of the time. Saying that they play pnr to target Jokic is like saying Nuggets played pnr to target 2 times DPOY Gobert. Murray/Jokic combined for 58 ppg against Utah.
Small samples

1. Porter Jr has the second worst defensive rtg out of nuggets players that play minutes
2. Jokic has the worst defensive rtg
3. I mean, people were saying they were targetting him on here and on everywhere, there were segments on tnt about then targetting him, videos on youtube about it etc
4. Harris and millsap are both among the best in net def rtg for thise playing significant minutes, but also more impressive considering they play more mintt it es with jokic than some of the others

1. We were talking about the Nuggets defense in the playoffs. I gave you their defensive rating in the playoffs and try to explain to you why these numbers can be misleading and why a few games that you watched them play may be too same semple size.
https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*10&SeasonType=Playoffs&Season=2019-20&TeamID=1610612743
2. I never said he played trough COVID. Read again. I said after COVID. I never asked did you or anyone played through flu or influenza. It can affect your energy level after you are healthy again. Jokic said he was asymptomatic and didn't have any effect on him. If you know anything about him you will know that is exactly what he will say. Gobert said he had a lack of energy from time to time even 2 months after he tested negative. Jokic said he wasn't tired in game one of the Clippers series. Murray sad he was exhausted. Don't believe Jokic all the time.
3. Stats that I posted are before the bubble (on feb/26/2020). In the bubble he was even worst then in the first few games of the POs. Maybe it has something to do with COVID or not. Who knows.
3. You can say that DWS, DBPM, DRPM, DPS... or whatever are bad stats. But somehow if you look at the players listed at the top defensively we saw players that are somehow considered good except for Jokic who is listed at the top but is considered terrible.
4. I don't want to argue with you. I see you are a serious basketball fan. You simply didn't follow Jokic. I watched every Nuggets game in the last 3 years. Here are the facts: Jokic is terible at rim protection. He was bad on D in the bubble and at the start POs. He is much better than that and is above average due to his basketball IQ

Watch on YouTube

1. That was in the playoffs
2. You cant make excuses that he hasnt said lol
3. I have been saying jokic is a ok defender thats performed horribly in the playoffs on d
4. Ok lol fine agree to disagree then

[MyUniBroDavis]

This is from another treat before Jokic cough COVID. Again if anyone of you played basketball after flu he knows that it can affect your energy level. Russ also had COVID before bubble we saw how he played in the POs

https://stats.nba.com/players/roll-man/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=POSS&dir=1

It says hes in the 34th percentile and gives up more than the other guys here

Defensive win shares and defensive box plus minus are by all means useless

.

Man you can't be calling that useless and then turnaround with net rating. That's a westbrick.

Wait win shares and box plus are trash lmao

The net rtg isnt definitive but it fits the rest of the evidence in the playoffs. My things always been if film and stats agree and in this case it dows

[MyUniBroDavis]

Also this goes without saying but if the nuggets pull it off jokic prolly goes top three

[MisterHibachi]

Also this goes without saying but if the nuggets pull it off jokic prolly goes top three

idk about top 3. I think LeBron/AD/Kawhi are kinda setting themselves apart right now.

[freethedevil]

https://stats.nba.com/players/roll-man/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=POSS&dir=1

It says hes in the 34th percentile and gives up more than the other guys here

Defensive win shares and defensive box plus minus are by all means useless

.

Man you can't be calling that useless and then turnaround with net rating. That's a westbrick.

Wait win shares and box plus are trash lmao

The net rtg isnt definitive but it fits the rest of the evidence in the playoffs. My things always been if film and stats agree and in this case it dows

Winshares is (relatively) trash to other metrics, but at least it does the very basic ass thing of adjusting for lineup. Net rating is just a half step up from just looking at what the score is.