The LeBron Thread 2021 Off-Season Edition

[Mos_Heat]

Hield is a real shooter though. His defense might be bad, but they can afford some bad defenders in the lineup. They desperately need some shooting, and not fake shooters like KCP who don't even want to get shots up.

At least Buddy can shoot it though

Is Kemba now less likely or more likely if you had to pick to be an option?

That's not enough for a 20mil guy tho. Yes he can shot, and he even makes pull up jumpers. But he can't run a P'n'R, has 0.1 career FTr, not fast or can't jump(not a great finisher, which limits his close out attacks) and a bad defender. Adding a guard with this skillset, who's small for his position, not athletic and almost 30 for this type of money would be another huge mistake

What are the better realistic options?

Continue to be a team who is at the bottom 5 in 3 point shooting?

Hield's defensive numbers have improved, but I dont watch him to really know if his defense is actually ok

He isn't just a 3 point specialist, he can score, but yes he does have limitations

If they can clear some space for the full MLE, then Patty Mills would be my choise

[Greyhound]

That's not enough for a 20mil guy tho. Yes he can shot, and he even makes pull up jumpers. But he can't run a P'n'R, has 0.1 career FTr, not fast or can't jump(not a great finisher, which limits his close out attacks) and a bad defender. Adding a guard with this skillset, who's small for his position, not athletic and almost 30 for this type of money would be another huge mistake

What are the better realistic options?

Continue to be a team who is at the bottom 5 in 3 point shooting?

Hield's defensive numbers have improved, but I dont watch him to really know if his defense is actually ok

He isn't just a 3 point specialist, he can score, but yes he does have limitations

If they can clear some space for the full MLE, then Patty Mills would be my choise

He would be a great PG (6th man) off the bench. Basically what Schroder should have been, but with a better shot.

[Greyhound]

None, because everything revolves around LeBron. LeBron system has it's pros an cons.

The Clippers are literally running the "LeBron system" lmao. The only difference is they have better players

Not really.

Yes basically.

One or two guys taking turns initiating offense while the other guys spread out around three point line (5 out).

[Mos_Heat]

Another way to get Mills would be trading Kuzma in a s'n't deal. He played in China with team US, seems like Pop likes him

[MartinToVaught]

Which one of LeBron’s teams could ever defeat a team like the Jazz two times in a row without him?

None, because everything revolves around LeBron. LeBron system has it's pros an cons.

The "LeBron system" is when the front office builds an atrocious team around LeBron so their only chance of being competitive is for him to do everything.

Notice how LeBron was an excellent off-ball player in Miami and had no problem letting Kyrie take more shots than him in Cleveland.

[homecourtloss]

The Clippers are literally running the "LeBron system" lmao. The only difference is they have better players

Not really.

Yes basically.

One or two guys taking turns initiating offense while the other guys spread out around three point line (5 out).

Basically. The whole ridiculous “bRoN bAL” argument

% Possessions in ISO

2021 Clippers, 14.7%
2018 Cavs, 13.7%
2017 Cavs, 15.6%
2016 Cavs, 13.8%

Strange this entire “LeBron’s teams struggle without him because he controls everything” only applies to him.

When his teammates play well and make shots, the argument goes away. One of the biggest reasons the Lakers were so dominant in the playoffs last year was because they played well with LeBron off court in non-garbage time minutes and LeBron in 2020 controlled the ball more than in any other season. Why did they do well? Because they made shots, especially AD being fed by Rondo. The offense was really good without LeBron on court in a season in which LeBron controlled the ball as much as ever.

2020 playoffs, Lebron off, AD ON
ORTG 118.5
DRTG 113.0
+5.5

With other minutes, mostly garbage time minutes, the Lakers were a negative with LeBron off, but the argument that the team struggles “because he controls everything” is not factually supported.

Bulls without Jordan in 1997 playoffs:
ORTG with Jordan, 108.3
ORTG without Jordan, 96.6
Overall without Jordan, -14.8

Bulls without Jordan in 1998 playoffs:

ORTG with Jordan, 110.2
ORTG without Jordan, 95.7
Overall without Jordan, -4.3

Bulls offense was falling apart without Jordan. Was that because “Jordan controlled everything”? There are multiple other examples too numerous to write down all here but it’s only James who somehow gets blamed for this. Is Shaq ball dominant who controls everything? Why wasn’t Kobe scoring when Shaq was off court? Was it because “Shaq controlled everything”?

Lakers’ playoffs ORTG without Shaq
1997, -11.9
1998, -9.8
1999, -6.9
2000, -13.9
2001, +5.3
2002, -22.1
2003, -16.0
2004, -22.8

Wade, Kyrie, Love, and his other supposed “super teammates” didn’t do much of anything with him off court even though they were running their own sets they were used to all season long, many of them ISO in which they’re good scorers but failed in the playoffs in limited possessions.

Respective Playoff ORTGs without James or Jordan or Shaq [using BKREF numbers for all for sake of ease]

2021 Lakers, -30.5 without James
2004, Lakers -22.8 without Shaq
2008 Cavs, -22.2 without James [limited off court minutes since James basically played entire games]
2002 Lakers, -22.1 without Shaq
2017 Cavs, -19.9 without James
2003 Lakers, -16.0 without Shaq
2012 Heat, -15.0 without James
1998 Bulls, -14.5 without Jordan
2010 Cavs, -14.1 without James [limited off court minutes]
2018 Cavs, -14.1 without James
2000 Lakers, -13.9 without Shaq
2016 Cavs, -12.6 without James
1997 Lakers, -11.9 without Shaq
1997 Bulls, -11.7 without Jordan
2007 Cavs, -10.3 without James [limited off court minutes]
1998 Lakers, -9.8 without Shaq
2013 Heat, -8.7 without James
2009 Cavs, -7.8 without James
1999 Lakers, -6.9 without Shaq
2011 Heat, -5.2 without James
2020 Lakers, -4.6 without James
2015 Cavs, -2.5 without James
2014 Heat, +2.0 without James [collapsed defensively]
2001 Lakers, +5.3 without Shaq [Kobe played great and role players made shots]

[falcolombardi]

i never bought the excuse that lebron was the reason his teammates were bad with him off court

if they forget how to play basketball when playing off ball then they were not that good to begin with

has any other player ever had his teammates struggling without him used AGAINST him?

i didnt see anyone criticize curry for how bad his teams were without him the past 2 years but it happens plenty to lebron

[MartinToVaught]

has any other player ever had his teammates struggling without him used AGAINST him?

Russell Westbrook. I'm surprised an OKC fan doesn't remember that same unfair narrative being applied to him during his MVP season!

[falcolombardi]

has any other player ever had his teammates struggling without him used AGAINST him?

Russell Westbrook. I'm surprised an OKC fan doesn't remember that same unfair narrative being applied to him during his MVP season!

i actually dont remember that specific argument being used in 2017 with westbrook

what was more common was people trying to prop uo his cast retroactively because oladipo and sabonis became good in indiana or "okc was better in defense than offense so westbrook was not that important" fallacy

also people being láser focused on scoring efficiency as the only thingh that matters amd LOTS of **** on him for rebound padding

[MartinToVaught]

has any other player ever had his teammates struggling without him used AGAINST him?

Russell Westbrook. I'm surprised an OKC fan doesn't remember that same unfair narrative being applied to him during his MVP season!

i actually dont remember that specific argument being used in 2017 with westbrook

what was more common was people trying to prop uo his cast retroactively because oladipo and sabonis became good in indiana or "okc was better in defense than offense so westbrook was not that important" fallacy

also people being láser focused on scoring efficiency as the only thingh that matters amd LOTS of **** on him for rebound padding

Even back in 2017, I remember Harden stans hyping up Steven Adams like he was prime Shaq and acting like Oladipo was some amazing player because he was drafted 2nd overall (while conveniently ignoring his whole career in Orlando), and the fact that the Thunder couldn't do anything while Russ was on the bench was all his fault for "making his teammates worse."

People even pointed to ESPN predicting that the Thunder would have a better record than the Rockets before the season as "proof" that Harden had a worse supporting cast, as if preseason predictions mattered more than on-court production.

Westbrook is the only player besides LeBron who inspires so much kneejerk hatred for no reason. It's crazy.

[falcolombardi]

Russell Westbrook. I'm surprised an OKC fan doesn't remember that same unfair narrative being applied to him during his MVP season!

i actually dont remember that specific argument being used in 2017 with westbrook

what was more common was people trying to prop uo his cast retroactively because oladipo and sabonis became good in indiana or "okc was better in defense than offense so westbrook was not that important" fallacy

also people being láser focused on scoring efficiency as the only thingh that matters amd LOTS of **** on him for rebound padding

Even back in 2017, I remember Harden stans hyping up Steven Adams like he was prime Shaq and acting like Oladipo was some amazing player because he was drafted 2nd overall (while conveniently ignoring his whole career in Orlando), and the fact that the Thunder couldn't do anything while Russ was on the bench was all his fault for "making his teammates worse."

People even pointed to ESPN predicting that the Thunder would have a better record than the Rockets before the season as "proof" that Harden had a worse supporting cast, as if preseason predictions mattered more than on-court production.

Westbrook is the only player besides LeBron who inspires so much kneejerk hatred for no reason. It's crazy.

oddly enough the same problem lebron has, he is discredited based on his teammates previous reputation to playing with him and not how good they actually were with lebron or even how good they were in reality

that is the only way it makes some sort of sense to compare injured wade and bosh to jordan joining bird and magic thag somehow people still do

[homecourtloss]

i never bought the excuse that lebron was the reason his teammates were bad with him off court

if they forget how to play basketball when playing off ball then they were not that good to begin with

has any other player ever had his teammates struggling without him used AGAINST him?

i didnt see anyone criticize curry for how bad his teams were without him the past 2 years but it happens plenty to lebron

It’s just a lazy narrative.

Cavs had the drop off because the Cavs offenses had such high ceilings WITH LeBron and were better on offense than the Bulls were with Jordan even relative to league averages during the playoffs. If I broke it down by individual defenses faced, took out the Cavs/Heat/Lakers offenses from the league averages, it’s even more skewed in favor of James for the available data.

1997 Bulls offense with Jordan: 108.3 [+.9 rORtg]
1998 Bulls: 110.2 [+4.6 rORtg]
2006 Cavs offense with LeBron (same for below): 104.0 [-4.2 rORtg]
2007 Cavs: 103.5 [-1.4 rORtg]
2008 Cavs: 106.6 [-.8 rORtg]
2009 Cavs: 115.1 [+7.4 rORtg]
2010 Cavs: 110.1 [+1.5 rORtg]
2011 Heat: 107.5 [+1.5 rORtg]
2012 Heat: 111.9 [+8.3 rORtg]
2013 Heat: 111.9 [+7.1 rORtg]
2014 Heat: 112.7 [+4.0 rORtg]
2015 Cavs: 107.3 [+2.0 rORtg]
2016 Cavs: 118.2 [+11.5 rORtg]
2017 Cavs: 124.0 [+12.7 rORtg]
2018 Cavs: 111.9 [+3.0 rORtg ]
2020 Lakers: 118.3 [+7.0 rORtg]

[falcolombardi]

i never bought the excuse that lebron was the reason his teammates were bad with him off court

if they forget how to play basketball when playing off ball then they were not that good to begin with

has any other player ever had his teammates struggling without him used AGAINST him?

i didnt see anyone criticize curry for how bad his teams were without him the past 2 years but it happens plenty to lebron

It’s just a lazy narrative.

Cavs had the drop off because the Cavs offenses had such high ceilings WITH LeBron and were better on offense than the Bulls were with Jordan even relative to league averages during the playoffs. If I broke it down by individual defenses faced, took out the Cavs/Heat/Lakers offenses from the league averages, it’s even more skewed in favor of James for the available data.

1997 Bulls offense with Jordan: 108.3 [+.9 rORtg]
1998 Bulls: 110.2 [+4.6 rORtg]
2006 Cavs offense with LeBron (same for below): 104.0 [-4.2 rORtg]
2007 Cavs: 103.5 [-1.4 rORtg]
2008 Cavs: 106.6 [-.8 rORtg]
2009 Cavs: 115.1 [+7.4 rORtg]
2010 Cavs: 110.1 [+1.5 rORtg]
2011 Heat: 107.5 [+1.5 rORtg]
2012 Heat: 111.9 [+8.3 rORtg]
2013 Heat: 111.9 [+7.1 rORtg]
2014 Heat: 112.7 [+4.0 rORtg]
2015 Cavs: 107.3 [+2.0 rORtg]
2016 Cavs: 118.2 [+11.5 rORtg]
2017 Cavs: 124.0 [+12.7 rORtg]
2018 Cavs: 111.9 [+3.0 rORtg ]
2020 Lakers: 118.3 [+7.0 rORtg]

i will forever be impressed how you always have the data for everythingh (basketball relatrd), is genuinely impressive

i am still learning how to search in bball refer3nce lol

[nzahir]

What are the better realistic options?

Continue to be a team who is at the bottom 5 in 3 point shooting?

Hield's defensive numbers have improved, but I dont watch him to really know if his defense is actually ok

He isn't just a 3 point specialist, he can score, but yes he does have limitations

If they can clear some space for the full MLE, then Patty Mills would be my choise

He would be a great PG (6th man) off the bench. Basically what Schroder should have been, but with a better shot.

So what happens to AC?

Starts at pg or or bench SG?

We still need a legit #3 guy at the wing or guard spot

Bojan could maybe be that guy if Utah wants a more athletic wing

This trade makes some sense, could close out with AC, Pope, Lebron, Bojan, and AD

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2093681&p=91806041#p91806041

[Mos_Heat]

If they can clear some space for the full MLE, then Patty Mills would be my choise

He would be a great PG (6th man) off the bench. Basically what Schroder should have been, but with a better shot.

So what happens to AC?

Starts at pg or or bench SG?

We still need a legit #3 guy at the wing or guard spot

Bojan could maybe be that guy if Utah wants a more athletic wing

This trade makes some sense, could close out with AC, Pope, Lebron, Bojan, and AD

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2093681&p=91806041#p91806041

Pretty clear that Schroder will start

[Greyhound]

He would be a great PG (6th man) off the bench. Basically what Schroder should have been, but with a better shot.

So what happens to AC?

Starts at pg or or bench SG?

We still need a legit #3 guy at the wing or guard spot

Bojan could maybe be that guy if Utah wants a more athletic wing

This trade makes some sense, could close out with AC, Pope, Lebron, Bojan, and AD

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2093681&p=91806041#p91806041

Pretty clear that Schroder will start

It would be great if Schroder can be traded for a starting caliber wing, so LeBron can be the starting PG.

Caruso can be starting PG or back up SG depending on roster construction, team health or matchups. He will get his 20 minutes wherever he is played.

[nzahir]

So what happens to AC?

Starts at pg or or bench SG?

We still need a legit #3 guy at the wing or guard spot

Bojan could maybe be that guy if Utah wants a more athletic wing

This trade makes some sense, could close out with AC, Pope, Lebron, Bojan, and AD

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2093681&p=91806041#p91806041

Pretty clear that Schroder will start

It would be great if Schroder can be traded for a starting caliber wing, so LeBron can be the starting PG.

Caruso can be starting PG or back up SG depending on roster construction, team health or matchups. He will get his 20 minutes wherever he is played.

That wing better be able to be a #3 scorer then if we are losing Dennis and not getting a #3 scoring guard back

Lakers have more options than others think imo

Can always use Dennis in a sign and trade and absorb bad salary and an asset or use the exception we may get to absorb bad salary and an asset

Then try to package that asset, our 1st, 2nds, and other contracts (kuzma, maybe trez, alfonzo, maybe Marc, and would even consider KCP if the guy is right enough) for another key piece

[Greyhound]

Pretty clear that Schroder will start

It would be great if Schroder can be traded for a starting caliber wing, so LeBron can be the starting PG.

Caruso can be starting PG or back up SG depending on roster construction, team health or matchups. He will get his 20 minutes wherever he is played.

That wing better be able to be a #3 scorer then if we are losing Dennis and not getting a #3 scoring guard back

Lakers have more options than others think imo

Can always use Dennis in a sign and trade and absorb bad salary and an asset or use the exception we may get to absorb bad salary and an asset

Then try to package that asset, our 1st, 2nds, and other contracts (kuzma, maybe trez, alfonzo, maybe Marc, and would even consider KCP if the guy is right enough) for another key piece

My preferred option would be keeping Dennis and bringing him off the bench as the six man he was supposed to be from the beginning. Use the mid level on that starting cabler wing (or a Mo Harkless type for the minimum).

With a healthy LeBron and Davis, all that wing would need to be is a reliable double digit scorer (10-14 points) who can spot up for three and play competent defense.

[trickshot]

Which one of LeBron’s teams could ever defeat a team like the Jazz two times in a row without him?

None, because everything revolves around LeBron. LeBron system has it's pros an cons.

I don't know how this is still a thing after the 21 season. I know it has been a problem on past Lebron teams but using it for the 21 Lakers is all kinds of tone deaf.

[Fadeaway_J]

It would be great if Schroder can be traded for a starting caliber wing, so LeBron can be the starting PG.

Caruso can be starting PG or back up SG depending on roster construction, team health or matchups. He will get his 20 minutes wherever he is played.

That wing better be able to be a #3 scorer then if we are losing Dennis and not getting a #3 scoring guard back

Lakers have more options than others think imo

Can always use Dennis in a sign and trade and absorb bad salary and an asset or use the exception we may get to absorb bad salary and an asset

Then try to package that asset, our 1st, 2nds, and other contracts (kuzma, maybe trez, alfonzo, maybe Marc, and would even consider KCP if the guy is right enough) for another key piece

My preferred option would be keeping Dennis and bringing him off the bench as the six man he was supposed to be from the beginning. Use the mid level on that starting cabler wing (or a Mo Harkless type for the minimum).

With a healthy LeBron and Davis, all that wing would need to be is a reliable double digit scorer (10-14 points) who can spot up for three and play competent defense.

Schroder isn't re-signing to play the sixth man role though.