2022-23 NBA Season Discussion

[MartinToVaught]

I think the history angle will always help the Lakers. The story of the league is littered with Lakers from Mikan, West, Baylor, Wilt, Abdul-Jabbar, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron... I expect that the idea of joining their hall of greatness and becoming a Lakers legend will always be appealing.

To be clear, management would still have to be competent, I think it'll just be an edge that they have that reduces how good of a job they need to do. All else equal, I expect the Lakers to be more appealing than the Knicks because of the history angle.

History helps, of course, but at some point you still have to keep renewing your history with current winning or else you lose the advantage.

Just look at the Canadiens. They're the Yankees/Lakers/Packers of hockey historically, but they've been in a drought since 1993, and so they haven't exactly been breaking the Internet with their free agent signings over the years. By comparison, even the Maple Leafs, the Knicks of hockey, managed to get John Tavares a few years ago.

[Dr Positivity]

I think the history angle will always help the Lakers. The story of the league is littered with Lakers from Mikan, West, Baylor, Wilt, Abdul-Jabbar, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron... I expect that the idea of joining their hall of greatness and becoming a Lakers legend will always be appealing.

To be clear, management would still have to be competent, I think it'll just be an edge that they have that reduces how good of a job they need to do. All else equal, I expect the Lakers to be more appealing than the Knicks because of the history angle.

History helps, of course, but at some point you still have to keep renewing your history with current winning or else you lose the advantage.

Just look at the Canadiens. They're the Yankees/Lakers/Packers of hockey historically, but they've been in a drought since 1993, and so they haven't exactly been breaking the Internet with their free agent signings over the years. By comparison, even the Maple Leafs, the Knicks of hockey, managed to get John Tavares a few years ago.

I think Montreal is more like Boston in terms of glamour factor as a city (and their success level last 30 years is roughly if Boston didn't have KG trade, but still had a few Pierce ECF, Tatum ECF/finals type runs, in some ways almost less interesting than if they were the joke of the league). Despite their rich history the Celtics kind of feel like just another solid hard working franchise to me, and have less FA appeal to the Knicks, and if they were both bad it wouldn't even be close. Maybe the 20 years in between Bird's last finals run and 08 Celtics was enough to take them from the kings up until that point in the NBA to being one of the pack, if in the upper half, and then compounded with another 10 years since the KG trade where they were good but not really in a spectacular way names wise. It hurts to not have The Guy like a Kobe, Lebron, Curry, etc. late prime KG probably doesn't count. Green Bay in NFL may have already lost their prestige if they weren't fortunate enough to land Favre and Rodgers.

In the case of the Lakers I feel like the history combined with glamour of living in LA make it likely they stay appealing forever, and Lebron at least reset the clock if it's possible for them to go down that much. The worst thing that could happen to them is if the Clippers had a dynasty with the league's most popular player.

[Max123]

Watching Josh Giddey play is one hell of an experience. He has already made me smile and laugh multiple times in this SL game with his crazy, exploitative and creative passing. Needs to still figure out the shooting and scoring aspects: seems like he is sort of pushing the ball without rhythm on his shots.

[HeartBreakKid]

I think the history angle will always help the Lakers. The story of the league is littered with Lakers from Mikan, West, Baylor, Wilt, Abdul-Jabbar, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron... I expect that the idea of joining their hall of greatness and becoming a Lakers legend will always be appealing.

To be clear, management would still have to be competent, I think it'll just be an edge that they have that reduces how good of a job they need to do. All else equal, I expect the Lakers to be more appealing than the Knicks because of the history angle.

History helps, of course, but at some point you still have to keep renewing your history with current winning or else you lose the advantage.

Just look at the Canadiens. They're the Yankees/Lakers/Packers of hockey historically, but they've been in a drought since 1993, and so they haven't exactly been breaking the Internet with their free agent signings over the years. By comparison, even the Maple Leafs, the Knicks of hockey, managed to get John Tavares a few years ago.

I think Montreal is more like Boston in terms of glamour factor as a city (and their success level last 30 years is roughly if Boston didn't have KG trade, but still had a few Pierce ECF, Tatum ECF/finals type runs, in some ways almost less interesting than if they were the joke of the league). Despite their rich history the Celtics kind of feel like just another solid hard working franchise to me, and have less FA appeal to the Knicks, and if they were both bad it wouldn't even be close. Maybe the 20 years in between Bird's last finals run and 08 Celtics was enough to take them from the kings up until that point in the NBA to being one of the pack, if in the upper half, and then compounded with another 10 years since the KG trade where they were good but not really in a spectacular way names wise. It hurts to not have The Guy like a Kobe, Lebron, Curry, etc. late prime KG probably doesn't count. Green Bay in NFL may have already lost their prestige if they weren't fortunate enough to land Favre and Rodgers.

In the case of the Lakers I feel like the history combined with glamour of living in LA make it likely they stay appealing forever, and Lebron at least reset the clock if it's possible for them to go down that much. The worst thing that could happen to them is if the Clippers had a dynasty with the league's most popular player.

The Celtics have had some competitive free agent signings. They took Hayward from Utah and got Al Horford from the Hawks. Then after they and Kyrie Irving left they got Kemba Walker from CHAR instantly.

All 3 of those guys were coveted max contract players.

I think people are too obsessed with the "superstar" FA signing which is very situational and still not common.

[Dr Positivity]

The Zion for Durant idea would have been a pretty interesting idea if still possible in regards to Zion extension. It sounds like it's too late.

[jalengreen]

The Zion for Durant idea would have been a pretty interesting idea if still possible in regards to Zion extension. It sounds like it's too late.

pass, zion is a legitimate generational talent. you cant trade him away IMO

[falcolombardi]

The Zion for Durant idea would have been a pretty interesting idea if still possible in regards to Zion extension. It sounds like it's too late.

pass, zion is a legitimate generational talent. you cant trade him away IMO

If nets asked for ingram × durant trade would you do it?

It would be a short term gamble with durant age but a intriguing one if zion gets healthy

Valanciunas
Durant
Zion
Herb
Alvarado?

[Dr Positivity]

The Zion for Durant idea would have been a pretty interesting idea if still possible in regards to Zion extension. It sounds like it's too late.

pass, zion is a legitimate generational talent. you cant trade him away IMO

With Zion there is multiple ways it can go wrong

- Injury ruined career
- Asks out halfway through his contract
- Stays healthy but only ends up having a Blake or Amare level career rather than being a generational PF

So while there is risk trading Durant for Zion that it blows up in your face, there is also risk on the other end

[Dr Positivity]

If nets asked for ingram × durant trade would you do it?

Yes but I feel like the Nets are asking for more than just Ingram if they're competing with a major all in package from Phoenix (Ayton+all their picks) or something

[jalengreen]

The Zion for Durant idea would have been a pretty interesting idea if still possible in regards to Zion extension. It sounds like it's too late.

pass, zion is a legitimate generational talent. you cant trade him away IMO

If nets asked for ingram × durant trade would you do it?

It would be a short term gamble with durant age but a intriguing one if zion gets healthy

Valanciunas
Durant
Zion
Herb
Alvarado?

CJ would start (unless we're assuming he's in the trade as well?)

thats more appealing and obviously fans tend to be a little too reluctant to do these trades because they're attached to players, but i just feel like zion+BI (22+24 yr old) line up together too nicely in the timeline to lose one for an aging player. because i dont think that's a championship team anyway, doesnt have the depth necessary IMO although the offense would be really fun to watch.

[jalengreen]

The Zion for Durant idea would have been a pretty interesting idea if still possible in regards to Zion extension. It sounds like it's too late.

pass, zion is a legitimate generational talent. you cant trade him away IMO

With Zion there is multiple ways it can go wrong

- Injury ruined career
- Asks out halfway through his contract
- Stays healthy but only ends up having a Blake or Amare level career rather than being a generational PF

So while there is risk trading Durant for Zion that it blows up in your face, there is also risk on the other end

zion is a player who has actually shown that he wants to be here right now (obviously he can change his mind at any point) - KD is a guy that has shown zero interest in playing for the pelicans. if asking out during their contract is a concern, the starting point should be who has actually proven that they have *any* interest in playing for the pelicans.

especially when you're a small market team and have a 22-year-old guy who has (so far) embraced the city and averaged 27 PPG on 65% TS% in his first healthy season.. the list of 34-year-olds in nba history i'd give him up for is very short.

[sp6r=underrated]

The Zion for Durant idea would have been a pretty interesting idea if still possible in regards to Zion extension. It sounds like it's too late.

pass, zion is a legitimate generational talent. you cant trade him away IMO

Also pass, I have grave doubts about Zion finishing out the contract in New Orleans. I have no doubt Durant would be a terrible soldier in New Orleans. In retrospect, I think only an overwhelming amount of talent kept him relatively happy in OKC.

In NO, he'd do an imitiation of Howard's end of Orlando career. And unlike Howard, he doesn't have the excuse or charm that comes with being a somewhat young adult. Durant is just a cranky middle aged geek

[jalengreen]

i like the SL debut from paolo. looked super poised. tari eason intriguing

[HeartBreakKid]

The Zion for Durant idea would have been a pretty interesting idea if still possible in regards to Zion extension. It sounds like it's too late.

pass, zion is a legitimate generational talent. you cant trade him away IMO

With Zion there is multiple ways it can go wrong

- Injury ruined career
- Asks out halfway through his contract
- Stays healthy but only ends up having a Blake or Amare level career rather than being a generational PF

So while there is risk trading Durant for Zion that it blows up in your face, there is also risk on the other end

The risk seem much easier to deal with than what you would get from Durant. The chances of Durant having a happy ending in NO seems pretty unlikely.

If Zion just ends up having a Blake Griffin career then that's better then whatever Durant is going to give the Pelicans. Durant is getting old, he's shown no interest in going to a small market, he probably doesn't think the Pelicans have good players, he has shown that he would demand a trade, shown he would leave in free agency - there is no reason to think he wouldn't leave NO and he's on borrowed time since he's in his mid 30s anyway.

[The-Power]

zion is a player who has actually shown that he wants to be here right now

Genuine question: how has he done it? I'd expect statements before a max extension that he really wanted to be positive, and there was some dubious behavior with him last season that rightfully worried the Pelicans (if I recall correctly). But perhaps I'm missing something?

[The-Power]

Not sure if it has been talked about already, but since the NBA introduced ECF/WCF MVPs this year – would there be a general an interest within the PC Board community to re-do this for previous years in the form of a project some time down the road?

[mcraft]

zion is a player who has actually shown that he wants to be here right now

Genuine question: how has he done it? I'd expect statements before a max extension that he really wanted to be positive, and there was some dubious behavior with him last season that rightfully worried the Pelicans (if I recall correctly). But perhaps I'm missing something?

I suspect he signed that contract because he’s worried about potential future health issues.

[sp6r=underrated]

One thing the Durant trade demand shows is the short contract length (5 yr max) ends up giving leverage to elite players while giving teams leverage over marginal players. Notice in the case of Durant who has multiple years remaining Brooklyn finds it much easier to say no trade unless we get a huge haul.

The over thing having strict contract length limits does is make it much easier for players to try to form superteams in bigger cities.

I don't particularly care about superteams but if you do max contract lengths are not your friends.

[Texas Chuck]

especially when you're a small market team and have a 22-year-old guy who has (so far) embraced the city and averaged 27 PPG on 65% TS% in his first healthy season.. the list of 34-year-olds in nba history i'd give him up for is very short.

This sounds great put like this.

But we could also frame it like this---a 22 year old with a massive frame who has managed to play one season out of 3 he has been in his league. The list of top 20 all-time players still playing at an all-NBA level I would consider trading for him if I had plenty of other talented pieces in place should be fairly expansive.

[Doctor MJ]

One thing the Durant trade demand shows is the short contract length (5 yr max) ends up giving leverage to elite players while giving teams leverage over marginal players. Notice in the case of Durant who has multiple years remaining Brooklyn finds it much easier to say no trade unless we get a huge haul.

The over thing having strict contract length limits does is make it much easier for players to try to form superteams in bigger cities.

I don't particularly care about superteams but if you do max contract lengths are not your friends.

I had the opposite thought.

Players making trade demands when they haven’t even begun their 4 year extension to me tells us that Durant doesn’t care in the slightest how much time he has left under contract.

He wants what he wants. He’s a god. So everyone else should rush to accommodate whatever whim he has all the time.

Were I an NBA owner thinking about the next CBA I’d be less focused on the lengths of contracts and more focused on giving teeth to contract to make sure that any players who do this have as little leverage as possible.

A player can always decide to sit out and not get paid, and if he’s willing to do that, he’ll always have leverage, but I’m sure they can do things to box a KD in better.

Of course there’s always a question of what you can get the player union to accept, but I’d expect the union will understand that because of the actions of Kyrie/Harden/KD/Simmons the owners will be out for blood in a way they haven’t been this century, and if the non-superstars can properly leverage themselves, they ought to be able to agree to a contract that helps them while hurting the superstars.

That said, traditionally the players have been remarkably naive about letting superstars have key roles in the union, so maybe they’ll got to the mat for superstars who treat their peers like dirt.


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