2024-25 NBA Season Discussion

[jalengreen]

Well so much for that, good game tho

[Doctor MJ]

How in the world did Haliburton get the "overrated" label, when I barely see him talked about?

He's one of the most underrated players in the league if anything. Reminds me a ton of Steve Nash. Doesn't put up monster scoring numbers, but is really efficient and has shown the ability to ramp up the scoring when he has to, but is very content to be one of the best playmakers in the league and set his teammates up. He also barely turns the ball over which is another huge plus and adds to his efficiency.

It’s a good question.

Up front I’ll say: I bet the vote tallies for this are all spread out, and who knows how many players abstain. So we honestly may just be talking about a handful of players who voted Hali overrated, and we shouldn’t forget that.

That said, I think clearly we can ask:

Why is there a tendency among NBA players to underrate this guy?

With Gobert the reasons seemed pretty clear, with Hali, I’d say much less so.

I think one thing going on is that players might have seen his prior offensive superstar run as a flash in the pan due to the fact he seemed physically healthy but wasn’t playing like an all-star. Hali acknowledging his mental issues I think offers an explanation.

Is there more to it than that? I’m curious what others are thinking about.


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[jalengreen]

How in the world did Haliburton get the "overrated" label, when I barely see him talked about?

He's one of the most underrated players in the league if anything. Reminds me a ton of Steve Nash. Doesn't put up monster scoring numbers, but is really efficient and has shown the ability to ramp up the scoring when he has to, but is very content to be one of the best playmakers in the league and set his teammates up. He also barely turns the ball over which is another huge plus and adds to his efficiency.

It’s a good question.

Up front I’ll say: I bet the vote tallies for this are all spread out, and who knows how many players abstain. So we honestly may just be talking about a handful of players who voted Hali overrated, and we shouldn’t forget that.

That said, I think clearly we can ask:

Why is there a tendency among NBA players to underrate this guy?

With Gobert the reasons seemed pretty clear, with Hali, I’d say much less so.

I think one thing going on is that players might have seen his prior offensive superstar run as a flash in the pan due to the fact he seemed physically healthy but wasn’t playing like an all-star. Hali acknowledging his mental issues I think offers an explanation.

Is there more to it than that? I’m curious what others are thinking about.


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To add, 90 players voted in total and 13 voted for Hali

[tone wone]

How in the world did Haliburton get the "overrated" label, when I barely see him talked about?

He's one of the most underrated players in the league if anything. Reminds me a ton of Steve Nash. Doesn't put up monster scoring numbers, but is really efficient and has shown the ability to ramp up the scoring when he has to, but is very content to be one of the best playmakers in the league and set his teammates up. He also barely turns the ball over which is another huge plus and adds to his efficiency.

It’s a good question.

Up front I’ll say: I bet the vote tallies for this are all spread out, and who knows how many players abstain. So we honestly may just be talking about a handful of players who voted Hali overrated, and we shouldn’t forget that.

That said, I think clearly we can ask:

Why is there a tendency among NBA players to underrate this guy?

With Gobert the reasons seemed pretty clear, with Hali, I’d say much less so.

I think one thing going on is that players might have seen his prior offensive superstar run as a flash in the pan due to the fact he seemed physically healthy but wasn’t playing like an all-star. Hali acknowledging his mental issues I think offers an explanation.

Is there more to it than that? I’m curious what others are thinking about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To add, 90 players voted in total and 13 voted for Hali

Giannis got votes for most overrated. I wouldn't put much stock in it.

[jalengreen]

It’s a good question.

Up front I’ll say: I bet the vote tallies for this are all spread out, and who knows how many players abstain. So we honestly may just be talking about a handful of players who voted Hali overrated, and we shouldn’t forget that.

That said, I think clearly we can ask:

Why is there a tendency among NBA players to underrate this guy?

With Gobert the reasons seemed pretty clear, with Hali, I’d say much less so.

I think one thing going on is that players might have seen his prior offensive superstar run as a flash in the pan due to the fact he seemed physically healthy but wasn’t playing like an all-star. Hali acknowledging his mental issues I think offers an explanation.

Is there more to it than that? I’m curious what others are thinking about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To add, 90 players voted in total and 13 voted for Hali

Giannis got votes for most overrated. I wouldn't put much stock in it.

Well, Giannis got two votes to be exact. The fact that Giannis, LeBron, Booker, AD, Ant, Tatum, CP3 all got 1 or 2 votes isn't very interesting. Clearly you're going to get a wide array of random answers and we can kind of just shrug at those. Then you have troll answers like Jock Landale?

But I think that's why it *is* kind of interesting that 13/90 voters did decide on the same answer of Tyrese Haliburton.

Side note, a fan poll would probably have Tatum near the top, people do not really like that guy. Interesting that players (outside of that one guy) didn't feel that way. Maybe post-championship respect & sympathy for the Olympics debacle.

[falcolombardi]

To add, 90 players voted in total and 13 voted for Hali

Giannis got votes for most overrated. I wouldn't put much stock in it.

Well, Giannis got two votes to be exact. The fact that Giannis, LeBron, Booker, AD, Ant, Tatum, CP3 all got 1 or 2 votes isn't very interesting. Clearly you're going to get a wide array of random answers and we can kind of just shrug at those. Then you have troll answers like Jock Landale?

But I think that's why it *is* kind of interesting that 13/90 voters did decide on the same answer of Tyrese Haliburton.

Side note, a fan poll would probably have Tatum near the top, people do not really like that guy. Interesting that players (outside of that one guy) didn't feel that way. Maybe post-championship respect & sympathy for the Olympics debacle.

It probably is as simple as him rubbing some people the wrong way for whatever reason

[sp6r=underrated]

How in the world did Haliburton get the "overrated" label, when I barely see him talked about?

I'm going to assume it was a sample size issue. It was a 90 person survey, 13 guys voted for him.

[Jaivl]

Players are dumb.

[falcolombardi]

Players are dumb.

I would change it to people are dumb, nba voters and us users here can get pretty stupid takes too lmao

[bigboi]

I think guys like Hakeem, Jokic, Giannis, KG, Duncan to an extent, Embiid, Barkley, Dirk, etc. Guys that are threats from the perimeter, could handle the ball at least a bit to the point where they can take a slower less mobile defender off the dribble and collapse a defense, with good reads and passing. Typically as far as “big men”, these would be more PF types.

You still didn’t answer the question. How is a player that is consistently hunted on defense and has received ZERO defensive accolades in Jokic better at defense than Shaq who has multiple defensive accolades and was second in DPOY voting?

[bigboi]

This is why you can't call ANT a superstar. This dude just disappears for 20 mins at a time. . Come on bro. What are you doing? You can't go down 0-2 to this Thunder team . They will for sure steal on on your HC if you do that. .. Go out Guns blazing. Even Joker didn't go out guns blazing Game 7. A REAL superstar will fight to the death. Not stand around and hope the role players and bums bail him out. Even if they lose, they let the winner they didn't stop them. You hoping for Naz Reid to get hot from the field? FFS

Ant has no stamina

[bigboi]

Players are dumb.

Haliburton was overrated during the regular season. He’s played well post season but first half of the season, he was pure garbage. Also it’s funny how Internet forum posters most who have never played a sport in their life competitively think that they are so much smarter than people that play the sport professionally. Silliness

[Jaivl]

Players are dumb.

I would change it to people are dumb, nba voters and us users here can get pretty stupid takes too lmao

Yeah, not saying they are the only dumb ones, lol.

[therealbig3]

I think guys like Hakeem, Jokic, Giannis, KG, Duncan to an extent, Embiid, Barkley, Dirk, etc. Guys that are threats from the perimeter, could handle the ball at least a bit to the point where they can take a slower less mobile defender off the dribble and collapse a defense, with good reads and passing. Typically as far as “big men”, these would be more PF types.

You still didn’t answer the question. How is a player that is consistently hunted on defense and has received ZERO defensive accolades in Jokic better at defense than Shaq who has multiple defensive accolades and was second in DPOY voting?

I literally have a post answering it. Moves his feet better, gives better effort more consistently, and is a better defensive rebounder. I also think he’s a smarter defender with better hands.

I’m going off actually watching them play. And the fact that Shaq was lucky he played in the era he did, defensively. Otherwise would have had to change his game up significantly.

You also literally answered my post about how PPG doesn’t tell you which supporting cast was better with a post listing their teammates’ PPG. There’s no point answering you.

[Doctor MJ]

Yeah the thing about Hali being named overrated this season that is really eyebrow-raising is that he wasn’t named all-star.

So you can say he wasn’t playing that well at the time because that’s true, but you can’t actually say that people were mistaking that poor play for great play - which is what actually being overrated would entail.

Of course all of that logic is based on the idea that NBA players were paying close attention and then making a detailed analysis judging Hali relative to how others were rating him…and NBA players don’t actually do any of that.

And to be clear: That’s less about players being non-experts about player evaluation, and more about the fact that it’s not their job to pay close attention and so they tend to think in terms of prior reputation.

So these guys were almost certainly voting for Hali here based in part on the discrepancy between the accolades he earned when he was playing well previously and how he played to start this season.


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[The-Power]

So these guys were almost certainly voting for Hali here based in part on the discrepancy between the accolades he earned when he was playing well previously and how he played to start this season.

Perhaps. But I'm also more with falco and think that Haliburton is just disliked by a bunch of players for his on-court behavior, and they voted for him as most overrated primarily for petty reasons and to get back at him. Anonymous surveys among players I'm sure are ripe with votes based on personal animosities and amities.

Another part of the equation could be that Haliburton doesn't play like your traditional superstar and has very apparent limitations in areas in which many previous superstars (especially Guards) excelled. From this more traditional view, which I am sure is still widespread among players too, I can see how they could genuinely believe that a player with Haliburton's skillset just isn't all that great.

[bigboi]

I think guys like Hakeem, Jokic, Giannis, KG, Duncan to an extent, Embiid, Barkley, Dirk, etc. Guys that are threats from the perimeter, could handle the ball at least a bit to the point where they can take a slower less mobile defender off the dribble and collapse a defense, with good reads and passing. Typically as far as “big men”, these would be more PF types.

You still didn’t answer the question. How is a player that is consistently hunted on defense and has received ZERO defensive accolades in Jokic better at defense than Shaq who has multiple defensive accolades and was second in DPOY voting?

I literally have a post answering it. Moves his feet better, gives better effort more consistently, and is a better defensive rebounder. I also think he’s a smarter defender with better hands.

I’m going off actually watching them play. And the fact that Shaq was lucky he played in the era he did, defensively. Otherwise would have had to change his game up significantly.

You also literally answered my post about how PPG doesn’t tell you which supporting cast was better with a post listing their teammates’ PPG. There’s no point answering you.

This is literally wrong lmao. Jokic doesn’t even try on defense. Opinions aren’t facts my friend. Jokic is flat out the worst defensive player ever from a superstar big man perspective. Shaq received DPOY votes for a reason because he was elite. Shaq is flat out on another level from Jokic and that’s not even to mention that Jokic didn’t even play well during the series. Bad for 4 out of the 7 games yet you’re acting like he was good. All this “Shaq was lucky” isn’t even an argument. Jokic is lucky to play in this era otherwise he would’ve been dominated in an era of real big men so cut it out. David Robinson would give Jokic fits and he’s on the lower end of players that would school Jokic. I saw no post from you but let me decimate that too

[bigboi]

Shaq would have ditched this Nuggets team 3 years ago at the very minimum.

Him getting on a stacked Lakers squad had a lot to do with the Magic blundering by not trading him and letting him become a FA.

Stacked lakers team lmao. You do realize that the supporting cast for Shaq in 99-00 was worse than Jokic’s in damn near every way, right? And the years before that, even worse. Like are we serious right now? We can easily pull up the stats too

Ok so let's compare them, but I really like how the current league is full of inflated offensive stats and therefore the players aren't that good, but now because these inflated offensive stats make Jokic's supporting cast look better than Shaq's, they should be taken at face value. Like, Murray putting up the same stats as 00 Kobe means something...but the fact that Jokic smashes Shaq's offensive output is because of the current league environment.

What?

Anyway, Murray isn't close to 00 Kobe, who was also a really good defender, which Murray is not. Aaron Gordon played great...and then got hurt. MPJ was hurt throughout. And then you have a bunch of meh throughout the lineup.

Shaq's 00 team had Kobe, who was still an All-Star, a really good perimeter defender on a team that had strong defensive players throughout the lineup, a 15 ppg scorer in Glen Rice, and a bunch of proven championship-level role players, most of whom won multiple titles before and/or after Shaq (Fisher, Horry, Harper, Green, and Fox).

But again, you're going to pull up PPG and say they weren't that good, and again, you're trying to compare the NBA at its absolute offensive nadir (late 90s/early 00s) to the NBA at its offensive apex, when teams have figured out how to maximize the 3pt shot and maximize the offensive efficiency and production out of everyone, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Jokic's teammates are giving him better help relative to his era than Shaq's teammates were relative to his era.

That argument literally goes against you. The only reason why folks even mention Jokic’s name with the likes of Shaq is due to offensive stats. So if Jokic’s teammates stats are inflated then Jokic’s stats are inflated as well meaning he isn’t better than Shaq no matter which way you slice it.

Jokic is literally the worst defender on his team lmao. And even if you consider Kobe much better than Murray, the rest of Shaq’s roster is much worse than Jokic’s. Derek fisher? Lmao are you serious right now? Silliness. Shaq’s lead multiple 60 win teams regardless of roster lmao. He’s simply BETTER. It doesn’t matter who Shaq’s second options were, he would win games and many of his losses in the playoffs came to ATG like losing to Hakeem, Malone, Jordan. Jokic is losing to Karl anthony towns and Rudy gobert, be fr lmao who Shaq would’ve completely dominated in every way both offensively and defensively

[falcolombardi]

Good start by minny, if okc pulls out this game it will need to be with a good shooting game, minnesota offense should get a nice boost at home

[DorianRo]

There goes Silver trying to get 7 games LOL Crooked ass management. He can see it slippin