2019-20 NBA Season Discussion

limbo · Post #3501 » by **limbo** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:57 am

So now you aren't even allowed to raise your voice and have a disagreement? Right after a tough loss in the ECF after your team was up 15 points in the 3rd and the game was still winnable in the last minute, in your own locker room, no less?

This is nothing. People trying to pass this off as 'dysfunctionality' and comparing it to season-long problems the Celtics had 2 years ago are pathetic.

yoyoboy · Post #3502 » by **yoyoboy** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:35 pm

In terms of defensive versatility/switchability how would you rank the following guys?

Davis
Draymond
Adebayo
Siakam
Isaac
Embiid

RCM88x · Post #3503 » by **RCM88x** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:40 pm

Draymond
Davis
Adebayo
Isaac
Siakam
Embiid

HeartBreakKid · Post #3504 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:41 pm

Davis better at switching than Adebayo?! Adebayo is way faster

Heej · Post #3505 » by **Heej** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:49 pm

Isaac is clearly the best imo. He just moves differently from the other guys.

Davis has the best combo of length and athleticism and intelligence

Adebayo has the raw agility for now

Draymond has the best technique and IQ out of everyone by far. I've actually copied his technique when I ball since I'm not always the most fleet of foot. Instead of trying to slide or turn and Sprint alongside his man every time. Draymond almost shuffles backwards slightly when his guy drives so he maintains the same spacing between himself and his man and is always on balance to lunge forward and contest the pull up before they even get into their motion, while still having enough cushion to recover if it's a hesi. Unfortunately this is more like a low risk low reward style of defense that usually leads to just a bad shot vs the AD or Bam style of defense where they might get shaken but they also straight up smother guys

Siakam idk man something weird about the way he moves to me he doesn't really seem as fluid or quick thinking but he is good vs little guards. He's clearly the weakest player here tho so hell get bullied by power wings in a way the others won't

Embiid. Just no lol.

Heej · Post #3506 » by **Heej** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:55 pm

Also, just wanna say can we take a second to put some goddamn respect on Mike Malone and the Denver Nuggets' name when it comes to defense??? You don't come back down 16 in one quarter by having a 125 ORTG for the quarter lol. You need stops too. And these guys get those in bunches.

Their whole team is so well coached. I love watching a young guy like Jamal Murray who I'd think would be trash at defense actually be a damn good help defender as a PG. Always at the nail or at the gaps early one pass away off his man and always sprinting out hard to close out and contest on balance and cut off the drive. Gary Harris Jerami Grant and Torrey Craig all make sweet sweet music off the ball on weakside help rotations and X'ing eachothers closeouts whenever they're playing 2 on 3 to cover up for Jokic having to trap or high hedge on PnR. Just great on the fly communication and problem solving from all 3 of those guys. Grant and Harris especially have this innate sense for when to peel off their guy and help in the paint once the guy with the ball has activated tunnel vision. They see that point of no return coming WELL before 90% of the players in the league at their position and they're daring enough to act on it.

I love this Nuggets team lol. Such a frisky WCF opponent. Should be a lovely 5 game series.

parsnips33 · Post #3507 » by **parsnips33** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:23 pm

Smart has to be in the defensive switchability conversation as well, I'd say he's up there with Isaac and Draymond.

RCM88x · Post #3508 » by **RCM88x** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:37 pm

Anyone notice than ESPN completely re-did all of their past RPM rankings? It's basically completely different from what it was, Curry dominates by a wide margin lol.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015

yoyoboy · Post #3509 » by **yoyoboy** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:51 pm

RCM88x wrote:Anyone notice than ESPN completely re-did all of their past RPM rankings? It's basically completely different from what it was, Curry dominates by a wide margin lol.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015

Yeah I personally hate the changes ESPN made. I'm pretty sure they made it more tied into the box score and priors, maybe to make the order more casual-friendly, and it's not surprising JE has nothing to do with the stat anymore.

That is crazy though how Curry is at the top every year.

2014: +8.47 (2nd)
2015: +10.92 (1st)
2016: +11.37 (1st)
2017: +7.96 (1st)
2018: +6.20 (2nd)
2019: +7.60 (1st)
2020: +4.72 (8th)

2020 makes me really curious as to what the formula is. Because I know minutes are tied in in order to prevent small sample size guys from being at the top, so I just don't understand how Steph could finish 8th this past year when he finished 22nd in BPM, 30th in PER, and registered an on-court of -14.9 and an on-off of -6.4. It makes absolutely no sense.

RCM88x · Post #3510 » by **RCM88x** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:56 pm

yoyoboy wrote:
RCM88x wrote:Anyone notice than ESPN completely re-did all of their past RPM rankings? It's basically completely different from what it was, Curry dominates by a wide margin lol.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015

Yeah I personally hate the changes ESPN made. I'm pretty sure they made it more tied into the box score and priors, maybe to make the order more casual-friendly, and it's not surprising JE has nothing to do with the stat anymore.

That is crazy though how Curry is at the top every year.

2014: +8.47 (2nd)
2015: +10.92 (1st)
2016: +11.37 (1st)
2017: +7.96 (1st)
2018: +6.20 (2nd)
2019: +7.60 (1st)
2020: +4.72 (8th)

2020 makes me really curious as to what the formula is. Because I know minutes are tied in in order to prevent small sample size guys from being at the top, so I just don't understand how Steph could finish 8th this past year when he finished 22nd in BPM, 30th in PER, and registered an on-court of -14.9 and an on-off of -6.4. It makes absolutely no sense.

Yeah idk, it's a bummer really but I don't think the stat is really all the useful anymore. Seeing stuff like that just sorta feels lame.

Wish they'd reveal a bit of it when making a big change, because a lot of it is very perplexing. Heck Draymond barely has a positive DRPM in a number of years, what's the deal with that?

Rapcity_11 · Post #3511 » by **Rapcity_11** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:21 pm

limbo wrote:So now you aren't even allowed to raise your voice and have a disagreement? Right after a tough loss in the ECF after your team was up 15 points in the 3rd and the game was still winnable in the last minute, in your own locker room, no less?

This is nothing. People trying to pass this off as 'dysfunctionality' and comparing it to season-long problems the Celtics had 2 years ago are pathetic.

What about the reports of objects being thrown and guys being restrained? That's beyond a raised voice disagreement.

ahmetmekin · Post #3512 » by **ahmetmekin** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:14 pm

yoyoboy wrote:
RCM88x wrote:Anyone notice than ESPN completely re-did all of their past RPM rankings? It's basically completely different from what it was, Curry dominates by a wide margin lol.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015

Yeah I personally hate the changes ESPN made. I'm pretty sure they made it more tied into the box score and priors, maybe to make the order more casual-friendly, and it's not surprising JE has nothing to do with the stat anymore.

That is crazy though how Curry is at the top every year.

2014: +8.47 (2nd)
2015: +10.92 (1st)
2016: +11.37 (1st)
2017: +7.96 (1st)
2018: +6.20 (2nd)
2019: +7.60 (1st)
2020: +4.72 (8th)

2020 makes me really curious as to what the formula is. Because I know minutes are tied in in order to prevent small sample size guys from being at the top, so I just don't understand how Steph could finish 8th this past year when he finished 22nd in BPM, 30th in PER, and registered an on-court of -14.9 and an on-off of -6.4. It makes absolutely no sense.

I don't know how to read 2020 numbers, since the team looks really weird and dysfunctional in 3 games he played. He was good in 2 other games. I don't know how they manage to make him 8th best. It should take some kind of wizardry to make this happen.

Post #3513 » by **Doctor MJ** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:26 pm

RCM88x wrote:Anyone notice than ESPN completely re-did all of their past RPM rankings? It's basically completely different from what it was, Curry dominates by a wide margin lol.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015

To me it's a real problem that they keep tinkering under the radar. I'm not saying they can't make improvements, but you have to do some kind of Versioning as if it were on Github. While I'm sure that feels alien to ESPN, so does making changes without explanation.

I'll note that while I'm not sure how involved with it Engleman is at this point, this is something I've been saying for years and I posted on APBRmetrics back in the day: He's always seemed more interested in making the "perfect stat" than he's been at actually making something analysts can use, but that's just the wrong approach.

Jim Naismith · Post #3514 » by **Jim Naismith** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:53 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
RCM88x wrote:Anyone notice than ESPN completely re-did all of their past RPM rankings? It's basically completely different from what it was, Curry dominates by a wide margin lol.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015

To me it's a real problem that they keep tinkering under the radar. I'm not saying they can't make improvements, but you have to do some kind of Versioning as if it were on Github. While I'm sure that feels alien to ESPN, so does making changes without explanation.

I'll note that while I'm not sure how involved with it Engleman is at this point, this is something I've been saying for years and I posted on APBRmetrics back in the day: He's always seemed more interested in making the "perfect stat" than he's been at actually making something analysts can use, but that's just the wrong approach.

https://web.archive.org/web/20180922120100/http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015

Post #3515 » by **Doctor MJ** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:30 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
RCM88x wrote:Anyone notice than ESPN completely re-did all of their past RPM rankings? It's basically completely different from what it was, Curry dominates by a wide margin lol.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015

To me it's a real problem that they keep tinkering under the radar. I'm not saying they can't make improvements, but you have to do some kind of Versioning as if it were on Github. While I'm sure that feels alien to ESPN, so does making changes without explanation.

I'll note that while I'm not sure how involved with it Engleman is at this point, this is something I've been saying for years and I posted on APBRmetrics back in the day: He's always seemed more interested in making the "perfect stat" than he's been at actually making something analysts can use, but that's just the wrong approach.

https://web.archive.org/web/20180922120100/http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015

Love archive.org, but ESPN should be doing something, and it should be a lot more helpful than an old archive.

ardee · Post #3516 » by **ardee** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:23 pm

The West-East talent gap is going to be even more ludicrous next season.

Potential West all-star team:

Curry, Doncic, Kawhi, LeBron, AD
Harden, Klay, George, Zion, Jokic
CP3, Russ

KAT, Booker, Murray, Gobert, Mitchell missing out.

East

Kyrie, Butler, Giannis, Durant, Embiid
Kemba, Lowry, Tatum, Siakam, Bam
Simmons, Middleton

If it wasn't for Durant going to the East, the West would have 8 of the 9 best players in the league.

parsnips33 · Post #3517 » by **parsnips33** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:25 pm

ardee wrote:The West-East talent gap is going to be even more ludicrous next season.

Potential West all-star team:

Curry, Doncic, Kawhi, LeBron, AD
Harden, Klay, George, Zion, Jokic
CP3, Russ

KAT, Booker, Murray, Gobert, Mitchell missing out.

East

Kyrie, Butler, Giannis, Durant, Embiid
Kemba, Lowry, Tatum, Siakam, Bam
Simmons, Middleton

If it wasn't for Durant going to the East, the West would have 8 of the 9 best players in the league.

Silver really should have given the Zion pick to Atlanta lol

GSP · Post #3518 » by **GSP** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:37 pm

parsnips33 wrote:Smart has to be in the defensive switchability conversation as well, I'd say he's up there with Isaac and Draymond.

Smart is great but if any guard is in that convo its Ben Simmons

parsnips33 · Post #3519 » by **parsnips33** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:40 pm

GSP wrote:
parsnips33 wrote:Smart has to be in the defensive switchability conversation as well, I'd say he's up there with Isaac and Draymond.

Smart is great but if any guard is in that convo its Ben Simmons

Good point. I'd also say Klay, a lot of his value on defense comes from his switchability, and not a lot of guys have his combination of quickness and strength.

GSP · Post #3520 » by **GSP** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:43 pm

parsnips33 wrote:
GSP wrote:
parsnips33 wrote:Smart has to be in the defensive switchability conversation as well, I'd say he's up there with Isaac and Draymond.

Smart is great but if any guard is in that convo its Ben Simmons

Good point. I'd also say Klay, a lot of his value on defense comes from his switchability, and not a lot of guys have his combination of quickness and strength.

Klay is awesome but his man defense mostly translates against guards specially Pgs. Alot of wings cook him TBH. Even back when Harrison Barnes was on the team he did a better job of guarding guys like Harden and Kd than Klay did (obviously Iggy was the guy)

Ive seen Ben switch onto guys like Ad and Sabonis and get stops or steals on them. Hes a freak