RealGM Top 100 List #4

[PaulieWal]

Miscounted, it should be 6, not seven. 2009-2014

First off, you are off on all 6 being contending teams and out of those 2011 is the only year where LeBron deserves the blame and criticism. You can try and make a case for 2010 if you want to repeat the 'He quit' narrative but 09 and 14 are not because he was lacking (though he could have played better in 14 but that goes for almost any player anytime you lose a series).

Not sure what part of "box score to team result" you missed in my post.

2009 Cavs, 8.68 SRS, #1 seed in East.....lost to Orlando(6.49 SRS) with HCA, easier opening rounds, and no Jammeer for the Magic.

2010 Cavs, 6.17 SRS, #1 seed in East.....lost to Boston(3.37 SRS) with HCA. This is the "Elbow" series where Lebron was "off".

2011 Heat, 6.76 SRS, #2 seed in East....lost to Dallas(4.41 SRS) with HCA. Lebron goes Hibbert on Miami, and the Mavs pull the upset.

^
That's 3 straight years where Lebron's teams lost to inferior opponents. in terms of impact, one has to wonder why Lebron's contending teams have historically underachieved in comparison to other greats.

And yes, he's had 6 contender overall. Every team from 2009-2014 have been contenders.

And as I clearly said 2011 was the series where he deserves blame and criticism and you could zero-in on him as the main reason for his team's loss. You can count 09 all you want but 39/8/8 says otherwise. I know you will make some abstract point about "box score to team result impact" but if you actually watched that series you would know that Mike Brown got out-coached badly and Orlando's shooters were on fire the entire series (41%). Not much LeBron or any player can do when another team is shooting 41% from 3 for the entire series.

For 2010, he had a bad game 5 and had problems with turnovers throughout but other than that he played fine (not good or great but fine) but Celtics focused on LeBron and exposed the Cavs not having a real second scoring threat on the floor.

2011 is a pretty big negative on his resume and I am with you there. Other than that, all you do is make abstract points without any basis and list players who were either injured or declining to say LeBron takes away from his teammates. You tried to argue that Shaq lost his game when he played with LeBron when Shaq was breaking down by that point, played 52 games only, fewer minutes and retired the very next year.

[An Unbiased Fan]

And as I clearly said 2011 was the series where he deserves blame and criticism and you could zero-in on him as the main reason for his team's loss. You can count 09 all you want but 39/8/8 says otherwise. I know you will make some abstract point about "box score to team result impact" but if you actually watched that series you would know that Mike Brown got out-coached badly and Orlando's shooters were on fire the entire series (41%). Not much LeBron or any player can do when another team is shooting 41% from 3 for the entire series.

For 2010, he had a bad game 5 and had problems with turnovers throughout but other than that he played fine (not good or great but fine) but Celtics focused on LeBron and exposed the Cavs not having a real second scoring threat on the floor.

2011 is a pretty big negative on his resume and I am with you there. Other than that, all you do is make abstract points without any basis and list players who were either injured or declining to say LeBron takes away from his teammates. You tried to argue that Shaq lost his game when he played with LeBron when Shaq was breaking down by that point, played 52 games only, fewer minutes and retired the very next year.

This isn't about "blame", its about impact. My whole point is that Lebron's style of play & gaudy box scores don't translated to superior impact for his teams. In general, star players are marginalized, and roleplayers are one-dimensional next to Bron.

Lebron is arguably the GOAT talent in NBA history, but.....in order for him to excel, it seems others around him will regress, unless they're natural role is as a spotup guy. At the end of the day, is it better to have one star dominate the box score, or for everyone's game to elevate around the star?

[90sAllDecade]

Although I have the bigs as more impactful, but since I have these two so close to each other and would like to hear good discussion.

I'm genuinely curious as to what people have as Magic's individual case over LeBron?

[PaulieWal]

This isn't about "blame", its about impact. My whole point is that Lebron's style of play & gaudy box scores don't translated to superior impact for his teams. In general, star players are marginalized, and roleplayers are one-dimensional next to Bron.

Lebron is arguably the GOAT talent in NBA history, but.....in order for him to excel, it seems others around him will regress, unless they're natural role is as a spotup guy. At the end of the day, is it better to have one star dominate the box score, or for everyone's game to elevate around the star?

That's not true at all but carry on. LeBron made the cast of the Cavs look better than they actually were. Wade when healthy has been able to flourish next to LeBron. You can't use players already in decline or injured to say, "See, that guy's game regressed". That's not being honest at all. I don't want to derail this thread since this is about player #4 in Top 100 Project. I may contribute to the LeBron discussion thread if I am around whenever he starts getting talked about.

[ardee]

And as I clearly said 2011 was the series where he deserves blame and criticism and you could zero-in on him as the main reason for his team's loss. You can count 09 all you want but 39/8/8 says otherwise. I know you will make some abstract point about "box score to team result impact" but if you actually watched that series you would know that Mike Brown got out-coached badly and Orlando's shooters were on fire the entire series (41%). Not much LeBron or any player can do when another team is shooting 41% from 3 for the entire series.

For 2010, he had a bad game 5 and had problems with turnovers throughout but other than that he played fine (not good or great but fine) but Celtics focused on LeBron and exposed the Cavs not having a real second scoring threat on the floor.

2011 is a pretty big negative on his resume and I am with you there. Other than that, all you do is make abstract points without any basis and list players who were either injured or declining to say LeBron takes away from his teammates. You tried to argue that Shaq lost his game when he played with LeBron when Shaq was breaking down by that point, played 52 games only, fewer minutes and retired the very next year.

This isn't about "blame", its about impact. My whole point is that Lebron's style of play & gaudy box scores don't translated to superior impact for his teams. In general, star players are marginalized, and roleplayers are one-dimensional next to Bron.

Lebron is arguably the GOAT talent in NBA history, but.....in order for him to excel, it seems others around him will regress, unless they're natural role is as a spotup guy. At the end of the day, is it better to have one star dominate the box score, or for everyone's game to elevate around the star?

What's better is the team wins games and by extension championships.

There are very few who help do that better than LeBron.

[ardee]

Beast, it's been more than the allotted two days. Want to take a call on this?

It might seem disingenuous coming from a guy who's been a staunch Wilt advocate but I agree with therealbig3, a run-off would lead to agenda driven voting.

[An Unbiased Fan]

This isn't about "blame", its about impact. My whole point is that Lebron's style of play & gaudy box scores don't translated to superior impact for his teams. In general, star players are marginalized, and roleplayers are one-dimensional next to Bron.

Lebron is arguably the GOAT talent in NBA history, but.....in order for him to excel, it seems others around him will regress, unless they're natural role is as a spotup guy. At the end of the day, is it better to have one star dominate the box score, or for everyone's game to elevate around the star?

That's not true at all but carry on. LeBron made the cast of the Cavs look better than they actually were. Wade when healthy has been able to flourish next to LeBron. You can't use players already in decline or injured to say, "See, that guy's game regressed". That's not being honest at all. I don't want to derail this thread since this is about player #4 in Top 100 Project. I may contribute to the LeBron discussion thread if I am around whenever he starts getting talking about.

Really? who did he make "look better than they actually were"? Chris Bosh would like to have a word with you.

The only players who seems to do well next to Lebron are spotup guys, which of course fits his style of play.

Although I have the bigs as more impactful, but since I have these two so close to each other and would like to hear good discussion.

I'm genuinely curious as to what people have as Magic's individual case over LeBron?

Magic elevated the play of all his supporting casts at GOAT level. Arguably the GOAT teammate. Unmatched offensive impact.

[An Unbiased Fan]

And as I clearly said 2011 was the series where he deserves blame and criticism and you could zero-in on him as the main reason for his team's loss. You can count 09 all you want but 39/8/8 says otherwise. I know you will make some abstract point about "box score to team result impact" but if you actually watched that series you would know that Mike Brown got out-coached badly and Orlando's shooters were on fire the entire series (41%). Not much LeBron or any player can do when another team is shooting 41% from 3 for the entire series.

For 2010, he had a bad game 5 and had problems with turnovers throughout but other than that he played fine (not good or great but fine) but Celtics focused on LeBron and exposed the Cavs not having a real second scoring threat on the floor.

2011 is a pretty big negative on his resume and I am with you there. Other than that, all you do is make abstract points without any basis and list players who were either injured or declining to say LeBron takes away from his teammates. You tried to argue that Shaq lost his game when he played with LeBron when Shaq was breaking down by that point, played 52 games only, fewer minutes and retired the very next year.

This isn't about "blame", its about impact. My whole point is that Lebron's style of play & gaudy box scores don't translated to superior impact for his teams. In general, star players are marginalized, and roleplayers are one-dimensional next to Bron.

Lebron is arguably the GOAT talent in NBA history, but.....in order for him to excel, it seems others around him will regress, unless they're natural role is as a spotup guy. At the end of the day, is it better to have one star dominate the box score, or for everyone's game to elevate around the star?

What's better is the team wins games and by extension championships.

There are very few who help do that better than LeBron.

Oh, I don't disagree. But, the very few who do it better are his competition in the project.

Beast, it's been more than the allotted two days. Want to take a call on this?

It might seem disingenuous coming from a guy who's been a staunch Wilt advocate but I agree with therealbig3, a run-off would lead to agenda driven voting.

i think its 2 days tomorrow around 2:50 pm.

[PaulieWal]

Really? who did he make "look better than they actually were"? Chris Bosh would like to have a word with you.

The only players who seems to do well next to Lebron are spotup guys, which of course fits his style of play.

Sorry to the mods because I don't want to derail this thread but the Bosh thing is totally incorrect. Bosh went from the 1st option on bad teams in Toronto to the 3rd option in Miami. Yeah, it's no surprise his numbers dropped. Wanna know something else? There's a reason Miami chooses to use Bosh as a floor spacer than a guy in the post. Wade and LeBron are two of the best post players in the game and also top 5 in efficiency over the last 2 seasons. Wade and LeBron are also the superior passers out of the post while Bosh has never been a good passer out of the post. Chris Bosh can have a word with me but he's the 3rd best player on a title team playing behind two players who are better than him in the post. Another key thing which you conveniently overlook is that Bosh plays out of position at the 5. He can post-up 4s but he struggles to post-up bigger guys. He can drive against them but it is still a better option for Miami for him to draw out his guy and let Wade/LeBron drive/post-up/pass.

I WOULD like to see Bosh more involved in the offense with Wade's decline but that's on the coach. Spo was actually asked during the RS if Bosh should be made the 2nd option but he refused because he didn't want to change his system. A guy going from the 1st option on mediocre-bad teams to a 3rd option on a title team is an example that you use to make your point?

[MisterWestside]

5. I understand Wilt was only on record as gunning for assists in 1968, but I can't imagine it wasn't in his mind in 1967 either. The man by many accounts was borderline OCD when it came to accumulating stats.

It's interesting, because you could accuse alot of greats for significant stat-hoarding. Take Jordan, for example. You couldn't make him into anything less than a volume 30+ ppg scorer and still be employed on the roster. He was so shot-happy in his career that he damn near set the NBA record in usage as a 38-year old. Jackson and Winter's triangle offense only allowed him to play within a useful system that took advantage of his shot-chucking ways, and even then the coaching duo would sometimes complain that Jordan didn't always stay within the system. Not that I focus on that, though, like others here do. If you put a player in a position to use his best skills that also benefits the team then you avoid those issues.

Good post.

[Baller2014]

The rule was you can't win on a plurality. I'm also not sure any of the non-Wilt voters would support him, so it's important for there to be some kind of run-off so that Wilt wins legitimately. If he does, good on him. I've certainly come away with a higher opinion of him from reading this thread.

EDIT: I went back through and did a quick count, and mine comes up differently too! lol. I have Wilt on 17, Magic on 6, Shaq on 5, Hakeem on 4, Duncan on 3 and KG on 2. Wilt would need 19 votes to have a majority (and I haven't included Dr P's floated switch btw).

[An Unbiased Fan]

Really? who did he make "look better than they actually were"? Chris Bosh would like to have a word with you.

The only players who seems to do well next to Lebron are spotup guys, which of course fits his style of play.

Sorry to the mods because I don't want to derail this thread but the Bosh thing is totally incorrect. Bosh went from the 1st option on bad teams in Toronto to the 3rd option in Miami. Yeah, it's no surprise his numbers dropped. Wanna know something else? There's a reason Miami chooses to use Bosh as a floor spacer than a guy in the post. Wade and LeBron are two of the best post players in the game and also top 5 in efficiency over the last 2 seasons. Wade and LeBron are also the superior passers out of the post while Bosh has never been a good passer out of the post. Chris Bosh can have a word with me but he's the 3rd best player on a title team playing behind two players who are better than him in the post. Another key thing which you conveniently overlook is that Bosh plays out of position at the 5. He can post-up 4s but he struggles to post-up bigger guys. He can drive against them but it is still a better option for Miami for him to draw out Bosh's guy and let Wade/LeBron drive/post-up/pass.

I WOULD like to see Bosh more involved in the offense with Wade's decline but that's on the coach. Spo was actually asked during the RS if Bosh should be made the 2nd option but he refused because he didn't want to change his system. A guy going from the 1st option on mediocre-bad teams to a 3rd option on a title team is an example that you use to make your point?

The goal should be to use the "best' option from game to game. If Magic has the matchup then go through him. if Jabbar has it, make him the 1st option for that game. If Shaq has a scrub downlow, pound it inside, and if Kobe has a guy who can't hang, let him go nuts.

Utilizing a supporting cast is about actually...utilizing them. Go look at the 2014 Spurs, who didn't care about 1st, 2nd, or 3rd options. its about matchups. Basketball has always been about matchups. Kobe could drop 30 a game, but if he's going down court and Pau has some weak defender on him, you can't bet he's forcing it to the Swan downlow. Bird could have dropped 30 ppg, but he was too busy hit guys when they had the matchup.

Lebron's style of play is to dominate the ball, and have everything go through him. Sure, he's a willing passer, but usually after his penetration's been cutoff. I don't see him making others the 1st option, hell, he never even developed a 2-man game with Bosh. What's the point of a Big 3, if only one guy is allowed to be "big".

[PaulieWal]

The goal should be to use the "best' option from game to game. If Magic has the matchup then go through him. if Jabbar has it, make him the 1st option for that game. If Shaq has a scrub downlow, pound it inside, and if Kobe has a guy who can't hang, let him go nuts.

Utilizing a supporting cast is about actually...utilizing them. Go look at the 2014 Spurs, who didn't care about 1st, 2nd, or 3rd options. its about matchups. Basketball has always been about matchups. Kobe could drop 30 a game, but if he's going down court and Pau has some weak defender on him, you can't bet he's forcing it to the Swan downlow. Bird could have dropped 30 ppg, but he was too busy hit guys when they had the matchup.

Lebron's style of play is to dominate the ball, and have everything go through him. Sure, he's a willing passer, but usually after his penetration's been cutoff. I don't see him making others the 1st option, hell, he never even developed a 2-man game with Bosh. What's the point of a Big 3, if only one guy is allowed to be "big".

Maybe you haven't been watching the Heat but since 2011 he is the "best option" every game, game to game. There's no point in me replying to you because your post is full of straw man arguments and I am not going to further derail this thread. It's not about LeBron (yet). If I feel like it and you are making the same arguments then(which you most likely will), I might jump in for a discussion but other than that it's kinda useless.

[An Unbiased Fan]

The goal should be to use the "best' option from game to game. If Magic has the matchup then go through him. if Jabbar has it, make him the 1st option for that game. If Shaq has a scrub downlow, pound it inside, and if Kobe has a guy who can't hang, let him go nuts.

Utilizing a supporting cast is about actually...utilizing them. Go look at the 2014 Spurs, who didn't care about 1st, 2nd, or 3rd options. its about matchups. Basketball has always been about matchups. Kobe could drop 30 a game, but if he's going down court and Pau has some weak defender on him, you can't bet he's forcing it to the Swan downlow. Bird could have dropped 30 ppg, but he was too busy hit guys when they had the matchup.

Lebron's style of play is to dominate the ball, and have everything go through him. Sure, he's a willing passer, but usually after his penetration's been cutoff. I don't see him making others the 1st option, hell, he never even developed a 2-man game with Bosh. What's the point of a Big 3, if only one guy is allowed to be "big".

Maybe you haven't been watching the Heat but since 2011 he is the "best option" every game, game to game. There's no point in me replying to you because your post is full of straw man arguments and I am not going to further derail this thread. It's not about LeBron (yet). If I feel like it and you are making the same arguments then(which you most likely will), I might jump in for a discussion but other than that it's kinda useless.

1) Us discussing Lebron isn't going to derail anything. The whole point of the project is to breakdown the greats. If KG is getting votes, then Lebron is more than in the conversation. So don't feel restricted.

2) No one, has always been the best option. When you have 2 other stars, its best to utilize the as a 1st option when matchups call for it. Once players become one-dimensional, they lose a chuck of their impact.

[PaulieWal]

1) Us discussing Lebron isn't going to derail anything. The whole point of the project is to breakdown the greats. If KG is getting votes, then Lebron is more than in the conversation. So don't feel restricted.

This thread is now primarily about Wilt/Shaq/Magic. Bringing in LeBron here when no one has voted for him or considered him for this spot might take away from the conversation.

And yes, the best players are generally the best option on a night-to-night basis. That's why they are the best players. Wade is supposed to the second guy who gets 20+ regularly and reduces the burden on LeBron (much like Pau did for Kobe) but you can't talk about Wade without accounting for his knee injuries since 2011.

As I said, all of this will be brought up (probably by you) whenever LeBron starts getting real consideration (my guess is between 7-9). If I am up for it then I will jump-in.

[Purch]

There's no real need for a runoff vote. The rule was intended for situations in which the vote was so close, that picking a winner might not actually be the best course of action. I think it's clear that Wilt has enough of an advantage for that not to apply. If a player has 11 more votes than his next runner up, than its probably best to start number 5, to be in good faith with the rules original intent

[DQuinn1575]

#1. This is completely ignoring the playoffs.
Wilt was a far better scorer in the regular-season then he was in the playoffs.

Agreed - you are correct

#2. I don't agree with using relative FG% or TS% unless it is accompanied by a good explanation for why it was harder for said player to score in one era compared to different one.
Blindly using such a stat gives an unfair advantage to Wilt because he played in a less efficient league but didn't necessarily play in a league that was harder for C's to score in.

If I was to blindly accept relative TS% then I would also have to think that Oscar & West would be having numerous 65+% TS type seasons if they played in today's league. I don't.

I'm not asking you to blinding accept relative TS%
I am asking you to not blinding ignore the fact that (1) Wilt was shooting much better than the league average, so he was efficient, and (2) the fact that pace has some impact on shooting %.

- actually EFG% would be better, but I didnt want to unfairly eliminate FT% on a discussion with Wilt.

You can't use relative TS% because of the FT% component. Some use of relative FG% would make sense. If they took more time to get shots off, West and Oscar would have shot better. How much? - I would have to do more work.

Shaq was a far more efficient scorer then Wilt while scoring on equal volume Peak wise and better volume Prime wise.

Peak wise Shaq scored about 27 ppg shooting 57-58% - Wilt never scored at this level. He scored 24ppg, shooting 59 and 68%, which is better than Shaq, or he scored 33-37 ppg. If you downgrade the 33-37 ppg because of pace, then you must also consider that a slower pace FG% will rise. You can't have it both ways.

In a league where the norm is 41%, you can't say the guy shooting 50% is inefficient.

And if you adjust for pace, then you should also realize the pace contributed to the lower FG%.

[ThaRegul8r]

I wanted to post these for the room and also address your criteria for your consideration. Hopefully some folks enjoy it.

1) the ability to integrate oneself and whatever respective abilities one brings to the table with the rest of the players on one's team in order to enhance the whole for the facilitation of the ultimate objective of winning, and the dedication to employ these abilities for the effectaution of said purpose.

Spoiler:

Leaders & Success
Basketball's Hakeem Olajuwon Fulfilled His Dream; Focus On Goals: Discipline and confidence helped this Nigerian immigrant lead the Houston Rockets to two NBA titles

When he came into the National Basketball Association, Hakeem Olajuwon was merely a raw physical talent: big and fast. He then became one of the game's greatest and most polished players. Why? He chalks it up to one reason: "I had the desire to want to grow, to get better," Olajuwon said in a 2002 interview. "I think the same principle applies to everything. Always strive for improvement, and learn and benefit from the experience of others." Olajuwon, who retired in 2002, is the NBA's seventh all-time leading scorer. His 26,946 points along with his 13,748 career rebounds in 18 seasons made him one of only eight players in NBA history with over 20,000 points and 12,000 rebounds. He's the league's all-time leader in blocked shots. Olajuwon was named the league's Most Valuable Player in 1994. In 1996 he was selected to the NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team. What was most important to the 7-foot-tall Olajuwon was leading his Houston Rockets to back-to-back NBA titles in 1994 and 1995. "Throughout my career I had been focused on winning the championship. I hadn't paid a lot of attention to statistics," Olajuwon wrote in "Living the Dream: My Life and Basketball," with Peter Knobler


Olajuwon came to America from his native Nigeria more versed in soccer than in basketball. He didn't play basketball until he was 16. A coach urged him to take up the game because of his size and agility. Olajuwon discovered he loved it. Discipline First "In order to be successful, you must have . . . principles and discipline. You can't be successful (over the long haul) if you don't have the discipline," he said. For Olajuwon, that meant working as hard in the offseason on his physical conditioning as he did during the season. And he constantly experimented to add new offensive moves to his repertoire. "Hakeem just never let anyone outwork him. Every year he improved, he came back better. Hakeem was driven like all the great ones are. He pushed himself to that next plateau. Not just once, but every year, for the 17 years that we had him," said Carroll Dawson, Houston's general manager and before that an assistant coach with the team. "Preparation is the most important thing, in everything really," Olajuwon said. "Because it is how well you prepare that will determine your confidence level." What also makes a difference is visualizing it actually happening, he says

Being part of two championship teams taught Olajuwon what it takes for an organization to reach its ultimate goal. Players must take personal responsibility for their performances, he says, while subordinating their contributions to the team. "Victory is not out of your control," Olajuwon wrote. "You prepare yourself for victory, you think and plan and train and sweat and work as hard as you can to reach your goal. And you go out and perform at your absolute best because that's the only way to play. You will not win without that." "Hakeem made everyone around him better," Dawson said. "Let me give you an example: When we took off as a team is when he became a good passer. He started making teams pay for the double and triple teams he was getting by finding his open teammates." Olajuwon says his success on the court is related to how he managed his life off the court. "Time is the biggest capital in someone's life," he said. "Time should be spent on something that is constructive. Don't waste time." Staying Grounded Olajuwon was the first overall pick in the 1984 NBA draft. Some let that go to their head. Not Olajuwon. He credits his religious faith (Islam) with helping keep him grounded and humble throughout his career.

When you have the combination of youth, wealth, time and fame, that is a dangerous combination without structure. My faith gives me higher principles to strive for -- things like honesty, kindness and community service," he said. Olajuwon, nicknamed the Dream, lives his words, remaining active in charities such as UNICEF and the Make-A-Wish Foundation. In addition, he set up The Dream Foundation, which awards college scholarships to high school students. Making something of one's life is an important principle to Olajuwon. In basketball, he's witnessed the painful downward spiral of players losing their careers and sometimes even more to drugs. "If you throw away this life you dishonor yourself," he wrote. "You are destroying your own life and should be held accountable . . . and you disappoint the people who are looking to you for direction." Olajuwon embraces the responsibility that comes with being seen as a role model to youngsters. "I don't think of it as a burden," he wrote. "It is very satisfying to be a good example." During the Rockets' championship year of 1994, Olajuwon was selected the league's Most Valuable Player and the Defensive Player of the Year. When he was named MVP of the NBA Finals, he became the only player ever to win all three awards in one year. This story originally ran Nov. 13, 2002, on Leaders & Success.
http://news.investors.com/management-le ... titles.htm

2) the ability to both identify what the team needs at any given moment in order to realize the ultimate objective of winning and provide it.

From Rudy T's book "A Rocket at Heart" (pg. 172)

Spoiler:

When I think of Hakeem Olajuwon's greatness, the word I keep coming back to is "competitiveness." In our practices, whenever a score was being kept, he would be out there giving it his all. When we've acquired guys in trades or brought in new rookies, Hakeem has been a great leader by example. When guys see the intensity of a superstar - even in practice- it just lifts the whole program. He has never been what you would call a rah-rah guy, but he is very comfortable leading by example.

I remember Don Chaney saying to Hakeem, "I want you to be our cocaptain and take a leadership role." Hakeem said he would do everything for the team, but didn't feel comfortable vocally addressing other players in a public way. But as time went by, he would often have something to say when we got into a crucial situation, and everybody would take notice. When the team could go one way or the other, his input was what got us going in the right direction.

3) possession of the rational self-interest to put aside ego in order to do #1, and #2, disregarding the opinions of irrelevant others who are not on the team and so have no effect on the team's success.

More from Rudy T (pg. 173):

Spoiler:

"Hakeem would get right to the point of where we needed to be as a team. Everthing was about we. What are we going to do? Are we all committed?

Without Hakeem doing the right thing in the locker room, I wouldn't be writing this book, we wouldn't have become two-time champions, and I probably wouldn't have lasted very long as a basketball coach.

My relationship with Hakeem is one of respect. I don't pal around with him or any of my players, but we've had some very good talks about the direction of the team and the different ideas I have for the success of the team. The number-one connection between Hakeem and me is that we both want to win. We've been around Houston a long time, and we both feel working for the Rockets is more than just a job."

4) the ability to block out distractions and anything irrelevant to the maximization of the team's chances of victory.

Like other all time greats, Hakeem had to evolve as a player and grow as a person spiritually. When he found his religion he maximized his talent, let go of all distractions. The disappointment of years of poor coaching and ownership & management failing to build team around him due to his highly competitive desire to win. With his religion he found true peace. His game peaked in unbelievable ways and maximized his now finally healthy, well rounded and competently coached team to victory.

Spoiler:

KEEPING THE FAITH/Olajuwon's, Rockets' quiet confidence has roots in Mecca
JONATHAN FEIGEN Staff
SUN 06/18/1995 HOUSTON CHRONICLE, Section Special, Page 8, 2 STAR Edition

Ignore the "Dream Shake," the single most unstoppable and identifiable move in the NBA, and the lone successor to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's signature "Sky Hook." Forget the jump hooks in the lane, the quick move and soft shot that sets up that fadeaway on the baseline.
Pay no attention to the defense, to the blocked shots and rebounds and the speed running the floor. And like David Robinson, try to forget all those fakes and jukes and first steps.

All that was enough to make Hakeem Olajuwon great, one of the best players in NBA history.

None of it made him a champion.

For Hakeem Olajuwon to become recognized as "the best player on the planet," as teammate Clyde Drexler has come to call him, he had to do more than that. He had to develop a game that touched every teammate, and lifted them to levels few thought possible.

And he had to develop in himself a calm, quiet confidence -- in his case, a tranquility born from his renewed and practiced faith -- that became the personality of his team. It became almost cliche years ago that players cannot be truly considered among the best unless they also improve the play of those around them. When Magic Johnson and Larry Bird were collecting championships and MVP trophies, it was used as the now-dated and inaccurate knock on Michael Jordan.

When Olajuwon was merely an automatic All-Star, the line was used to explain why he was not as celebrated as the champions. But though he has since elevated his own play through the strength of his personality and diversity of his game, he has elevated his teammates to levels that more than meet the requirements for all-time greatness.

And more to the immediate point, considering the comebacks and the steely-cool last-second wins, the perspective of Olajuwon became the persona of the Rockets, and as much a key to the triumph as any inside move or 3-point shot.

"I always knew he was a great player," Rockets vice president for basketball operations Bob Weinhauer said. "I had no way of knowing what a great individual he was. The way he carries himself and projects himself to everyone, his ease of doing things, his calmness, really carries over to the rest of the team." It cannot help but influence his Rockets teammates and their play. As forward Robert Horry said, when asked about the Rockets' calm under pressure and ability to rise to any occasion, "It all flows from No. 34."

He had been asked to be a more vocal leader in the past, and he has done that. But his greater impact is unspoken, not only in the example of work habits or play, but in his entire "stay hungry, stay humble" approach to his game and life.

"I admire him so much for his even temperament," Rockets coach Rudy Tomjanovich said. "I've tried to coach that way. I am a very emotional person. But I realized when I started coaching, negative emotions can really hurt your team. That's the way Hakeem is.

"That's something I really admire in him. I've watched him grow. As a young player, he was really excitable and reacted a lot. Now I don't know how he keeps from reacting. He gets beat up every time down the court. The responsibility of being a great player on a team, and the strain of all the travel, it wears you down. You get irritable. This guy keeps an even keel all the time. I get strength from that." Tomjanovich is not alone. But Olajuwon will explain his attitude and priorities, so valuable to the Rockets now, were not devised to help influence teammates or game results. Since his first pilgrimage to Mecca, his faith has touched every part of his life, and, eventually, the Rockets.

"His religion," Drexler said, "dominates his life."

And it defines him even as a basketball player.

"I believe it is my duty to do my best and prepare my best," Olajuwon said. "That concept to stay humble and stay hungry is not because we won a championship or we are winning. We demonstrated professionalism, even when we were on top. And we are still humble. That is very important."

5) the ability to raise one's game during big games and crucial moments in order to bring about the ultimate objective of winning, and the mental fortitude to do so.

Rudy T (pg. 255):

Spoiler:

"Prior to Game Two, Commissioner David Stern was on hand to present David Robinson with the MVP trophy. I don't think anyone could quarrel with Robinson getting the award, based on his performance in the regular season. He's a spectacular, athletic player; end to end, he might be the fastest big man in the game today. Some people are critical of his lack of inside power, but I feel David Robinson uses his quickness and speed as well as anyone. He can pull off the block, face up and drive by bigger defenders, not only for scores but for foul shooting opportunities. He was at the top of the league in free throws attempted. He's a very tough man to defend.

Robinson had lead his team to the best record, and his numbers were superlative. But as we were standing there watching the ceremony, I had a feeling that Hakeem would be especially pumped up. There was no way in the world I'd have to give a pep talk for that game.

The 1994 MVP went against the 1995 MVP and showed the moves of a ballerina and the strength of a weight lifter. Hakeem finished with 41 points, and we jumped on them early and held a 2-0 series lead.

Through the first two series, Hakeem had been so consistent and so reliable, but in San Antonio series he hit a peak. I've never seen anything like it. Olajuwon was in another world. When we would watch the tapes after the game and see the things he was doing against a great defensive player - it was just amazing. When I'm on the porch with the grandkids talking about the greatest performances of all time, the series that Hakeem had against San Antonio will be at the top of the list, you can be assured of that."

Final note from Rudy (pg. 169)

Spoiler:

"I believe history will smile kindly on Hakeem Olajuwon. When you talk about the all-time great centers, he belongs in the same category as Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Walton - all guys who have won championships.

You could make a strong argument for Hakeem being the best.
When you look at him and really watch the things he does, it becomes apparent the he's a combination of the great ones. He's got the strength of Chamberlain, the quickness of Russell, and the shot making ability of Abdul-Jabbar. When you talk about Hakeem and Kareem, the connection is that the defense can do almost nothing about each guy's pet shot. Kareem had the nearly unstoppable sky hook; Hakeem has the shake-and-bake fadeaway jumper. I won't say Hakeem is as good a passer as Walton, but he as worked on that part of his game to the point that it eventually helped make Hakeem a champion."

You get extra points for actually addressing each of my criteria point by point rather than just making another generic post.

However, Hakeem did fall short on criteria #4 before he found Islam.

In Game 5 of the 1986 Western Conference Finals between the Houston Rockets and Los Angeles Lakers in which Ralph Sampson hit a 12-footer at the buzzer for a 114-112 win to eliminate the Lakers, Olajuwon was ejected with 5:14 remaining, with the Rockets trailing by four. “Sampson, who finished with 29 points and 5 rebounds, was named the game’s most valuable player. He was forced to pick up the slack in the last five minutes of the game after the other half of Houston’s Twin Tower tandem, Akeem Olajuwon, tangled with L.A.’s Mitch Kupchak. Olajuwon threw three or four quick punches, knocking Kupchak down before he was restrained by referee Jess Kersey and the Lakers’ Maurice Lucas” (The Montreal Gazette, May 22, 1986). “Akeem Olajuwon, an immensely talented center in only his second pro season, had become the leader as the Rockets defeated the Los Angeles Lakers in three of their first four games. Yet, Olajuwon was in the dressing room, ejected after a fracas with Mitch Kupchak, when the fifth game of the Western Conference finals was decided” (The Palm Beach Post, May 24, 1986). He wasn't even on the floor when his team beat the champs because he couldn't keep his temper. They had to win without him—and did—but he didn't have anything to do with that.

Spoiler:

BEFORE HE WAS THE most gracious icon, before he came to embody the purest competitive spirit, Hakeem Olajuwon was a Net. Not in name, but in manner. Olajuwon nearly ruined the Houston Rockets with insurgent conduct, then did something rebel Nets never do: he grew up.

The Rockets arrived at the Meadowlands last night a two-time defending champion because Olajuwon finally put team ahead of self in 1993, when he initiated a drive to become the world's best player. The transformation took shape after a foul dispute with management over cold cash and phony injuries. Olajuwon was suspended by the Rockets for insubordination in '92, was nearly dealt to the Clippers that summer, then planted the seeds of a two-peat during a trip to Japan, when he convinced owner Charlie Thomas to keep him with a lavish new contract.

Though owners and coaches would change, Olajuwon completed his rise from obscure Nigerian goalie to acclaimed NBA center. He found religion, passed to teammates, won titles and forged a marketable image with talk of peace. Now road crowds appreciate him the way they did last night, when he scored 36 points in a 98-89 victory.

While the Nets remain married to their turbulent experience Willis Reed, God bless him, is expected to meet with Darryl Dawkins today Olajuwon has removed himself from a past straight out of the Jersey marshes.

Early in his career, Olajuwon was held as a remarkable talent who didn't get it. He punched Billy Paultz as a rookie to lose a playoff series to Utah, then was ejected from games in two of his three succeeding rounds. Hours before the deciding game of yet another series, he demanded management grant him 12 first-class tickets so two family members could travel between Los Angeles and Houston over the summer. He regularly ripped Sleepy Floyd and Rodney McCray in the papers.

Olajuwon forever pressed the Rockets to acquire new blood, from Norm Nixon to Kenny Smith. A year after the Smith deal was made, the Dream was unhappy with him.

The business community was unhappy with Olajuwon. He burned sponsors by showing at events late, or not at all. He changed agents with the seasons, sometimes stiffing them on commissions. When endorsements dried up, Olajuwon wanted the Rockets to make up the difference. After one of those requests was rejected, Olajuwon went down with a hamstring injury the team said he feigned. Olajuwon denied it and called Thomas a "coward." The Rockets suspended their star and explored a trade.

"I definitely thought I was going to be leaving," said Olajuwon, who was negotiating his third day of fasting for the Muslim holy period of Ramadan. "Every day I was rumored to be going somewhere new. I just left for the summer and told our owner to do what he had to do."

Having failed to find an equal-value package, the Rockets kept Olajuwon. When they gave him more money, they feared he would grow more disruptive, the way Derrick Coleman would after receiving his $30 million guarantee. But people who know Olajuwon say the public dispute with the Rockets changed him for the better. They said he realized his name was sullied, that he needed to alter his game and attitude.

"At the time, he was completely irresponsible and maybe one of the more selfish human beings you could meet," said one of those people. "But going through what he did with the Rockets made him mature. And then his commitment to his faith was the best thing that happened to him."

He matured for his peak, but you'll still have to get through that period to get to his peak.

[colts18]

2010 Cavs, 6.17 SRS, #1 seed in East.....lost to Boston(3.37 SRS) with HCA. This is the "Elbow" series where Lebron was "off".

Do you always contradict yourself? This is your post a week ago on the most talented teams each year

2004 - Mavs
2006 - PHX
2008 - Celtics
2009 - Celtics
2010 - Celtics
2011 - Heat
2012 - Heat

[Ryoga Hibiki]

As I cannot vote, I just want to add a few notes:
- as open minded as I can be, I have a serious problem considering Garnett at this point, no matter what are the priorities anybody has in his list. As much as you can trust RAPM, that's a RS stat and RS can not have that much of a weight when talking about Top5. I can see someone saying he would draft Garnett fourth in an All time draft, but didn't even have a chance to prove he belonged to those stages
- the impact Shaq had on a game was unmatched in my experience, but there a few things that must be considered, when talking about his absolute peak:
* he was not dominating head to head the likes of Hakeem, Robinson and even Ewing until they actually got older
* as good as he was on defense there were serious issues in his pick and roll defense, I can't imagine how much it would have been exploited today
* for an offensive star, his limitations in the end of the games were there and should not be underrated, when talking all time greats