Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor)

[Odinn21]

LeBron
Bird
Hakeem
MJ
KG
Magic
Walton
Kareem
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan

Are the 11 guys that seem to be featured in the intro portion of the vid. Obviously he's already added Robinson to that list to get up to 12. I expect a couple of more recent guys to get a spot, most notably Curry imo, so still two free spots if he's really doing 15 (Dirk grabbing one?). Kobe seems perfectly arguable as top 15, no idea why some are presenting Kobe being included as an offense.

He definitely will have Garnett in there. He already prefers Garnett over Duncan, I don't think he'll leave Garnett out. Also it'd be weird for him to have Walton and Robinson but not Garnett.

[eminence]

LeBron
Bird
Hakeem
MJ
KG
Magic
Walton
Kareem
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan

Are the 11 guys that seem to be featured in the intro portion of the vid. Obviously he's already added Robinson to that list to get up to 12. I expect a couple of more recent guys to get a spot, most notably Curry imo, so still two free spots if he's really doing 15 (Dirk grabbing one?). Kobe seems perfectly arguable as top 15, no idea why some are presenting Kobe being included as an offense.

He definitely will have Garnett in there. He already prefers Garnett over Duncan, I don't think he'll leave Garnett out. Also it'd be weird for him to have Walton and Robinson but not Garnett.

Oh yeah, he's one of the guys I listed being in the intro vid (he gets a chasedown block on... some Nugget, don't remember who).

[limbo]

I would love to see a similar breakdown for many players... Even if i don't think Kobe could be argued as the best ever on the basis of his peak, it would still be interesting too see a similar breakdown on his strengths/weaknesses and general tendencies. And the same goes for especially guys like Nash and Dirk (both of whom are not only fairly unique offensive players, but also one of the most influential ones ever).

[Odinn21]

Oh yeah, he's one of the guys I listed being in the intro vid (he gets a chasedown block on... some Nugget, don't remember who).

Ah, missed it. My brain went over KG like that wasn't Garnett.

[Djoker]

I think he will do 15 episodes:

1. Wilt/Russell
2. Walton
3. Kareem
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Jordan
7. Robinson
8. Olajuwon
9. Shaq
10. Duncan
11. Garnett
12. Kobe
13. Lebron
14. Curry
15. Final Episode with Honorable Mentions and Ranking the Peaks

[dcstanley]

What years do you guys think he would focus on for KG and Kobe?

[HeartBreakKid]

It was stated there would be 15 episodes? If so then Kobe will certainly get a spot, and I don't think that's bad at all - especially since theres no pre 3 point line or ABA included. Though I do think Kobe's peak is comparable to Wade, Nash, CP3, Nowitzki - and obviously some of those guys won't make the cut.

It would be a disservice to the game not to have him anyway lol. Even if you think his peak isn't high enough to be mentioned amongst the greatest, what he means to the game is just too great to be ignored.

I don't know about that. He skipped out on Dr.J who is plenty important to the game (certainly more so than someone like Walton). He will include Kobe Bryant simply because many people will ask why Kobe Bryant is not on the list otherwise.

It's not just that Kobe is mega popular or influential or he passed recently - it's that 10 years ago many, many people thought he was the GOAT. It's in Ben's interest to address that.

Really? Many people thought he was the best ever?

Yup, quite common in pop culture for Kobe to be called the goat or someone to ask if he's the goat. Bryant vs Jordan was a popular argument in the 00s.

Not that I agree with it, but certainly a lot of people especially casual fans think that. A lot of regular fans thought that also but I think over time that has faded as James has emerged and there is a better understanding of things like efficiency among the basketball community.

[DQuinn1575]

This guys take on Jordan's defense is laughable.

So Ben studied and watched countless of 1989-91 MJ games for this project with experience of evaluating defense with other players, he made a long and comprehersal video to make his points and came up with conclusion a lot of people agree with here.

Then you came in the party and said that his opinion is "laughable" because it's different than yours. If anything is laughable, it's your approach.

Honestly, Ben said that he still rated Jordan pretty darn high on defense, just not the very best. And he did show examples of what he was talking about. For as high as he still rated him, he probably went on too long on Jordan's flaws, and not enough of his strongpoints. IIRC he called Jordan a +1.25 defender and Pippen/top elite a 2.00 defender. Its like he felt he had to defend his position too much in spending that long in the video on the topic. NOTE I am not opining on the ratings here - again he made a good case for his conclusions, and respect the opinion here.

[Jordan Syndrome]

What years do you guys think he would focus on for KG and Kobe?

02-04 and 08-09

[LakerLegend]

This guys take on Jordan's defense is laughable.

So Ben studied and watched countless of 1989-91 MJ games for this project with experience of evaluating defense with other players, he made a long and comprehersal video to make his points and came up with conclusion a lot of people agree with here.

Then you came in the party and said that his opinion is "laughable" because it's different than yours. If anything is laughable, it's your approach.

No, I'm leaning on the opinions and observations of countless players, coaches, general managers, and whoever else you want to name some of whom were around since the 1950's who gave Jordan all the defensive accolades he accrued in his career.

Not random youtube goobers who watched a few games on tape and think they can breakdown a player of Jordan's stature in the game and supersede those opinions and his accomplishments.

[Doctor MJ]

This guys take on Jordan's defense is laughable.

So Ben studied and watched countless of 1989-91 MJ games for this project with experience of evaluating defense with other players, he made a long and comprehersal video to make his points and came up with conclusion a lot of people agree with here.

Then you came in the party and said that his opinion is "laughable" because it's different than yours. If anything is laughable, it's your approach.

Honestly, Ben said that he still rated Jordan pretty darn high on defense, just not the very best. And he did show examples of what he was talking about. For as high as he still rated him, he probably went on too long on Jordan's flaws, and not enough of his strongpoints. IIRC he called Jordan a +1.25 defender and Pippen/top elite a 2.00 defender. Its like he felt he had to defend his position too much in spending that long in the video on the topic. NOTE I am not opining on the ratings here - again he made a good case for his conclusions, and respect the opinion here.

The funny thing to me is that if you actually go and time how much time he spent being negative compared to how much time he was positive, the positive way outweighs the negative. The same is true for all of these videos.

[70sFan]

This guys take on Jordan's defense is laughable.

So Ben studied and watched countless of 1989-91 MJ games for this project with experience of evaluating defense with other players, he made a long and comprehersal video to make his points and came up with conclusion a lot of people agree with here.

Then you came in the party and said that his opinion is "laughable" because it's different than yours. If anything is laughable, it's your approach.

No, I'm leaning on the opinions and observations of countless players, coaches, general managers, and whoever else you want to name some of whom were around since the 1950's who gave Jordan all the defensive accolades he accrued in his career.

Not random youtube goobers who watched a few games on tape and think they can breakdown a player of Jordan's stature in the game and supersede those opinions and his accomplishments.

Ben doesn't say Jordan didn't deserve these accolades (outside of DPOTY, which he definitely didn't deserve). You seem to missunderstand what Taylor said in this video - this criticism is relative to other GOAT candidates, not to average player.

[DQuinn1575]

So Ben studied and watched countless of 1989-91 MJ games for this project with experience of evaluating defense with other players, he made a long and comprehersal video to make his points and came up with conclusion a lot of people agree with here.

Then you came in the party and said that his opinion is "laughable" because it's different than yours. If anything is laughable, it's your approach.

No, I'm leaning on the opinions and observations of countless players, coaches, general managers, and whoever else you want to name some of whom were around since the 1950's who gave Jordan all the defensive accolades he accrued in his career.

Not random youtube goobers who watched a few games on tape and think they can breakdown a player of Jordan's stature in the game and supersede those opinions and his accomplishments.

Ben doesn't say Jordan didn't deserve these accolades (outside of DPOTY, which he definitely didn't deserve). You seem to missunderstand what Taylor said in this video - this criticism is relative to other GOAT candidates, not to average player.

Maybe I'll watch again the defense part, but MJ criticism was at an even higher standard than just GOAT - he measured Jordan against a higher standard than Bird in my opinion - it seemed to me he used a standard of DPOY for Jordan and a standard of "considered mediocre on defense" for Bird - again, I'm trying not to comment on his conclusions, but that is how I perceive his comments, but a previous poster said he spent more time on MJ's positives on defense vs negatives - I didnt think so. I "think" based on time spent you would get the impression that his gap from MJ vs Bird is less than what his conclusions are.

[Doctor MJ]

No, I'm leaning on the opinions and observations of countless players, coaches, general managers, and whoever else you want to name some of whom were around since the 1950's who gave Jordan all the defensive accolades he accrued in his career.

Not random youtube goobers who watched a few games on tape and think they can breakdown a player of Jordan's stature in the game and supersede those opinions and his accomplishments.

Ben doesn't say Jordan didn't deserve these accolades (outside of DPOTY, which he definitely didn't deserve). You seem to missunderstand what Taylor said in this video - this criticism is relative to other GOAT candidates, not to average player.

Maybe I'll watch again the defense part, but MJ criticism was at an even higher standard than just GOAT - he measured Jordan against a higher standard than Bird in my opinion - it seemed to me he used a standard of DPOY for Jordan and a standard of "considered mediocre on defense" for Bird - again, I'm trying not to comment on his conclusions, but that is how I perceive his comments, but a previous poster said he spent more time on MJ's positives on defense vs negatives - I didnt think so. I "think" based on time spent you would get the impression that his gap from MJ vs Bird is less than what his conclusions are.

I see. So no, "fairness" is not what I'd say the goal is with the videos. He's trying to get people to understand the shape of the player and what his identifiable strengths and weaknesses are. He's creating a communication to an audience based on his expectation of their pre-existing categorization of the player. People think Jordan was a DPOY-level player because he won DPOY, so that's the landscape he's working with.

For Jordan's defense, it's crucial to understand that that off-the-charts defensive aggression has a specific risk associated with it. You have to see both sides of the coin or else it would make sense to ask "Well why doesn't every player on every team play this way? Why aren't you going for a steal at every possible moment?". He's trying to show enough footage and make enough commentary to get the point across. It's coming across to people - lots of people - as "hitting people over the head with negativity", but he's certainly not showing all the player mistakes he has footage of.

[DQuinn1575]

Ben doesn't say Jordan didn't deserve these accolades (outside of DPOTY, which he definitely didn't deserve). You seem to missunderstand what Taylor said in this video - this criticism is relative to other GOAT candidates, not to average player.

Maybe I'll watch again the defense part, but MJ criticism was at an even higher standard than just GOAT - he measured Jordan against a higher standard than Bird in my opinion - it seemed to me he used a standard of DPOY for Jordan and a standard of "considered mediocre on defense" for Bird - again, I'm trying not to comment on his conclusions, but that is how I perceive his comments, but a previous poster said he spent more time on MJ's positives on defense vs negatives - I didnt think so. I "think" based on time spent you would get the impression that his gap from MJ vs Bird is less than what his conclusions are.

I see. So no, "fairness" is not what I'd say the goal is with the videos. He's trying to get people to understand the shape of the player and what his identifiable strengths and weaknesses are. He's creating a communication to an audience based on his expectation of their pre-existing categorization of the player. People think Jordan was a DPOY-level player because he won DPOY, so that's the landscape he's working with.

For Jordan's defense, it's crucial to understand that that off-the-charts defensive aggression has a specific risk associated with it. You have to see both sides of the coin or else it would make sense to ask "Well why doesn't every player on every team play this way? Why aren't you going for a steal at every possible moment?". He's trying to show enough footage and make enough commentary to get the point across. It's coming across to people - lots of people - as "hitting people over the head with negativity", but he's certainly not showing all the player mistakes he has footage of.

Agreed. When steals first became a stat, people thought the leaders were just players who gambled too much and the leaders at first weren't always lauded as great defenders.

[HeartBreakKid]

This guys take on Jordan's defense is laughable.

So Ben studied and watched countless of 1989-91 MJ games for this project with experience of evaluating defense with other players, he made a long and comprehersal video to make his points and came up with conclusion a lot of people agree with here.

Then you came in the party and said that his opinion is "laughable" because it's different than yours. If anything is laughable, it's your approach.

No, I'm leaning on the opinions and observations of countless players, coaches, general managers, and whoever else you want to name some of whom were around since the 1950's who gave Jordan all the defensive accolades he accrued in his career.

Not random youtube goobers who watched a few games on tape and think they can breakdown a player of Jordan's stature in the game and supersede those opinions and his accomplishments.

So in other words you're just going off of blind hype and you're totally ignoring that the "random youtube goober" (by this notion aren't you a random forum posting goober?) didn't say he was bad.

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and make a video response? Prove your point.

Someone put in a ton of hard work to make an analysis video and you get cheeky because he said your hero was a 9.9 instead of a 10 and that you know so much more than him. He presented his argument, where is yours?


In before you say "I have better things to do" - no, you do not, hence why you post here. You aren't going to make a response to his video because you don't know what you're talking about.

[70sFan]

No, I'm leaning on the opinions and observations of countless players, coaches, general managers, and whoever else you want to name some of whom were around since the 1950's who gave Jordan all the defensive accolades he accrued in his career.

Not random youtube goobers who watched a few games on tape and think they can breakdown a player of Jordan's stature in the game and supersede those opinions and his accomplishments.

Ben doesn't say Jordan didn't deserve these accolades (outside of DPOTY, which he definitely didn't deserve). You seem to missunderstand what Taylor said in this video - this criticism is relative to other GOAT candidates, not to average player.

Maybe I'll watch again the defense part, but MJ criticism was at an even higher standard than just GOAT - he measured Jordan against a higher standard than Bird in my opinion - it seemed to me he used a standard of DPOY for Jordan and a standard of "considered mediocre on defense" for Bird - again, I'm trying not to comment on his conclusions, but that is how I perceive his comments, but a previous poster said he spent more time on MJ's positives on defense vs negatives - I didnt think so. I "think" based on time spent you would get the impression that his gap from MJ vs Bird is less than what his conclusions are.

Well, it's another matter that he spent way too much time on trying to convince people that Bird was good defender.

I think it's great that he breaks false narratives and it's understandable that he uses different standards for Bird (usually seen as poor defender) and Jordan (called GOAT-level defender). At the same time, I agree that sometimes he goes too far though and it's not the first time - Wilt is used by him as an example of "scoring != offense" narrative so often that at this point many people view Wilt as below average offensive player with no skills or positive impact - which is not true. That's why I wish he made normal video about Russell or Wilt - many people would understand how they played from a video similar to Kareem/Walton ones. Instead, Ben made another video about Wilt not being as good as his stats suggest, which shows him in bad light for people who doesn't fully understand his point.

The same thing happens with MJ here - Ben tried to explain that MJ wasn't GOAT-level defender, but the results are that a lot of people start thinking he wasn't good at all.

[Odinn21]

What do you think about Taylor's season selection for James?
I'd probably go 2012-2013 but 2016-2017 span also has a great case.

His regular season performance & motor was better and his defensive effort was more consistent in Miami.
Though he was a better floor general in Cleveland and the way he directed offense was certainly better, especially in the playoffs.

[KTM_2813]

What do you think about Taylor's season selection for James?
I'd probably go 2012-2013 but 2016-2017 span also has a great case.

His regular season performance & motor was better and his defensive effort was more consistent in Miami.
Though he was a better floor general in Cleveland and the way he directed offense was certainly better, especially in the playoffs.

I could be wrong, but I feel like he's been choosing three-year stretches for everyone. Definitely let me know if I need correcting on that though. Under that assumption, I'm going to say 2012-2014. I believe I listened to a podcast once where he said he liked 2013 the best, so I'm pretty sure it's going to be in there.

[DQuinn1575]

Ben doesn't say Jordan didn't deserve these accolades (outside of DPOTY, which he definitely didn't deserve). You seem to missunderstand what Taylor said in this video - this criticism is relative to other GOAT candidates, not to average player.

Maybe I'll watch again the defense part, but MJ criticism was at an even higher standard than just GOAT - he measured Jordan against a higher standard than Bird in my opinion - it seemed to me he used a standard of DPOY for Jordan and a standard of "considered mediocre on defense" for Bird - again, I'm trying not to comment on his conclusions, but that is how I perceive his comments, but a previous poster said he spent more time on MJ's positives on defense vs negatives - I didnt think so. I "think" based on time spent you would get the impression that his gap from MJ vs Bird is less than what his conclusions are.

Well, it's another matter that he spent way too much time on trying to convince people that Bird was good defender.

I think it's great that he breaks false narratives and it's understandable that he uses different standards for Bird (usually seen as poor defender) and Jordan (called GOAT-level defender). At the same time, I agree that sometimes he goes too far though and it's not the first time - Wilt is used by him as an example of "scoring != offense" narrative so often that at this point many people view Wilt as below average offensive player with no skills or positive impact - which is not true. That's why I wish he made normal video about Russell or Wilt - many people would understand how they played from a video similar to Kareem/Walton ones. Instead, Ben made another video about Wilt not being as good as his stats suggest, which shows him in bad light for people who doesn't fully understand his point.

The same thing happens with MJ here - Ben tried to explain that MJ wasn't GOAT-level defender, but the results are that a lot of people start thinking he wasn't good at all.

I wouldnt necessarily call them false narratives - remember, only the ones we disagree with our false . But I do think you are right, in the case of Wilt's offense, Bird's defense, MJ's defense, I think he goes overboard trying to disprove the "popular belief", but I think he is talking so much about them he blurs what point he is at with them.
In the case of Wilt -
Arizin shot just as well post Wilt as pre, Gola shot better once WIlt joined the team. Guy Rodgers was always a bad shooter (but great ballhandler), So Wilt comes in, takes shots from these guys, leads league in fg% and scoring, while they shoot just as well - not really sure why we blame him - was he supposed to not take a 50% shot and pass it to Guy Rodgers to take a 40% shot?

Wilt joined an average team, was a monster talent, but Boston had a much better roster and Russell played Wilt well enough to beat him. That is Wilt's time with the Warriors. So then Wilt doesn't seem to know how to win