2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[Doctor MJ]

Not sure if I agree with the generalities of these Blake Griffin takes.
In my memory, Blake's skill development was slow and steady. He took a looooong time to have a threatening jump shot and only peaked as an average 3-point shooter. It's not like he was special when he took a step inside the line either. I definitely think Blake looked the part in his final healthy moments. I'd marvel at how complete his game had become as a passer/shooter/decision maker. But what evidence is there that he was low-key that player on the Chris Paul Clippers? His assist% and TO% seem pretty tethered to each other, the shooting never becomes quite good.

I share this vague idea of Griffin but does it really hold up to scrutiny? Feels like he's getting very generous benefit of the doubt. I'm not convinced his skill set ever got to a level where it replaced the value of his early career rim pressure. I'll take his juicy free throw rate, 200 dunks per season, and rebounding rates (all start a steady decline at age 25). I don't believe his skill development every eclipsed that early value, and I think it was a big part of the Clippers going from a threat to win 60 games to more of a 50-win outfit. Skill-based Blake never got his day, and I'm not convinced that day would have been all that special.

Well, I think the time frame we're talking about is age 24-25. By that point he was a 5 APG guy who could lead a fast break and who was hitting 40% from 16-23 feet while taking a good amount of his shots in that range.

Given that in general we look at guys as only hitting their prime in their late 20s, I think this is clearly a case of a guy who gained these skills at a perfectly fine rate.

Now, he wasn't ready to do this when he started, he'd never be as good at it as Paul, and injuries curtailed him from there on out. All that's true, but still Blake was demonstrating quite a lot.

Re: Never a great 3-point shooter. He became pretty good, but not elite. Important though to note that - at least for me - I'm not talking about using him as an off-ball shooter, I'm talking about using him as a helio, which means that he's not the one you're looking to take the 3's, he's the one you're looking to attack inside the arc and pass out to others when he draws a double.

[Heej]

Could you send me a link to this euro step hook shot?

Play starts at 1:25 just absolutely filthy

Watch on YouTube

Thanks!

Yeah, it was a tough shot, as he went up through the contact, almost onto defender. That said, I don't think it's the kind of play I've never seen before. I don't deny that Jokic is probably the most skilled center ever though.

To me it's more the fact that a guy his size is two stepping through the lane and rotating across his body and going full extension with the hook. I've seen plenty of smalls make tough plays like that, but the main point of my post is guys with that kind of size making moves like that. Just makes it wayyy more impressive. And the tbh the touch was nice lol rarely see guys go full extension on their hooks anymore. Most "jump hooks" nowadays are guys just shooting push shots

[Clyde Frazier]

The thing that most tells me Jokic is still underrated is nobody made a big deal of him getting swept out of the playoffs last year. Fair or not, guys as good as he is are typically dragged through the mud if they go out bad in a series. (I know his whole team was injured, not trying to put the loss on him at all, but that type of nuance is not usually applied when a superstar falters in the playoffs)

Maybe it's because he's in Denver? Whatever it is, the reaction to him getting swept told me people still aren't taking him seriously, when they absolutely should be.

I get what you're saying, it's a fair point. i think the market has something to do with it. In the moment he definitely got criticism for the way he went out, but it doesn't get brought up too often. He did have a depleted roster like you mentioned, which he's dealing with again this year. I also think his lack of involvement with social media contributes too. He just flies under the radar.

That said, it's really getting absurd how people will go out of their way to keep him out of their top 5 at this point. Yeah, we aren't robots so you can only be so objective but he's playing at such an elite level and just doesn't matter to some. Most recently this Jazz beat writer Tony Jones last night on twitter.

[cupcakesnake]

Not sure if I agree with the generalities of these Blake Griffin takes.
In my memory, Blake's skill development was slow and steady. He took a looooong time to have a threatening jump shot and only peaked as an average 3-point shooter. It's not like he was special when he took a step inside the line either. I definitely think Blake looked the part in his final healthy moments. I'd marvel at how complete his game had become as a passer/shooter/decision maker. But what evidence is there that he was low-key that player on the Chris Paul Clippers? His assist% and TO% seem pretty tethered to each other, the shooting never becomes quite good.

I share this vague idea of Griffin but does it really hold up to scrutiny? Feels like he's getting very generous benefit of the doubt. I'm not convinced his skill set ever got to a level where it replaced the value of his early career rim pressure. I'll take his juicy free throw rate, 200 dunks per season, and rebounding rates (all start a steady decline at age 25). I don't believe his skill development every eclipsed that early value, and I think it was a big part of the Clippers going from a threat to win 60 games to more of a 50-win outfit. Skill-based Blake never got his day, and I'm not convinced that day would have been all that special.

Well, I think the time frame we're talking about is age 24-25. By that point he was a 5 APG guy who could lead a fast break and who was hitting 40% from 16-23 feet while taking a good amount of his shots in that range.

Given that in general we look at guys as only hitting their prime in their late 20s, I think this is clearly a case of a guy who gained these skills at a perfectly fine rate.

Now, he wasn't ready to do this when he started, he'd never be as good at it as Paul, and injuries curtailed him from there on out. All that's true, but still Blake was demonstrating quite a lot.

Re: Never a great 3-point shooter. He became pretty good, but not elite. Important though to note that - at least for me - I'm not talking about using him as an off-ball shooter, I'm talking about using him as a helio, which means that he's not the one you're looking to take the 3's, he's the one you're looking to attack inside the arc and pass out to others when he draws a double.

I do agree he flashed some helio-looking game and remember thinking it at the time, even appreciating it in the later years even though he couldn't stay healthy. I agree with all of it overall, all I'd add is that it was kind of just a 1 season thing. 2015 he was putting all those skills together and sustaining it in the playoffs. Beating the Spurs in the first-round series, it felt like Blake, Paul and the Clippers were about to have their day. They lost to Houston in an embarrassing fashion, and Blake was never healthy again.

[RCM88x]

Jokic just doesn't fit the mold of what the average NBA fan thinks of as a good player. He's not the kind of guy kids will go home and try to mimic in the driveway and grow up idolizing... at least not on this side of the pond.

He'll never be respected until he puts together a ATG playoff run like Dirk did.

[70sFan]

Jokic just doesn't fit the mold of what the average NBA fan thinks of as a good player. He's not the kind of guy kids will go home and try to mimic in the driveway and grow up idolizing... at least not on this side of the pond.

He'll never be respected until he puts together a ATG playoff run like Dirk did.

That's horrible because he's the perfect guy to watch, analyze and try to mimic - at least for a bigman. There are very few bigs that you could learn from watching them in play - Kevin McHale was certainly the one, Kareem to a lesser degree was the other. Jokic is in that very rare group.

[Clyde Frazier]

Jokic just doesn't fit the mold of what the average NBA fan thinks of as a good player. He's not the kind of guy kids will go home and try to mimic in the driveway and grow up idolizing... at least not on this side of the pond.

He'll never be respected until he puts together a ATG playoff run like Dirk did.

The thing with jokic tho is even the most casual fan can look at his counting stats and be like "damn." Not to mention when you watch him, he's unstoppable on offense. I get how he isn't the classic hyper athletic exciting player, but his dominance isn't all that hidden at this point. But yeah, it could be as simple as "title or bust" with these critics, which is sad. Same thing happened to giannis with fools calling him "unskilled."

[falcolombardi]

i thinl you guys may be overstimating the level of "depth" for lack of a better word, the majority of fans watch basketball with, or any sport like soccer or baseball (i dont say this as a criticism, sports are to be consumed however people wish after all)

it usually is more related to Market size and winning thinghs that actual goodness, hence why derek jeter is so much more known than mike trout in baseball for example

of course sometimes or maybe most often the best players are the most famous but it doesnt always have to be the case

[RCM88x]

Jokic just doesn't fit the mold of what the average NBA fan thinks of as a good player. He's not the kind of guy kids will go home and try to mimic in the driveway and grow up idolizing... at least not on this side of the pond.

He'll never be respected until he puts together a ATG playoff run like Dirk did.

That's horrible because he's the perfect guy to watch, analyze and try to mimic - at least for a bigman. There are very few bigs that you could learn from watching them in play - Kevin McHale was certainly the one, Kareem to a lesser degree was the other. Jokic is in that very rare group.

Most players aren't smart enough to play a hyper passing centric style like Jokic does. It's far easier just to tell a guy who can jump high to catch lobs or block shots.

[Texas Chuck]

Kidd finally realizing 2 big lineups were holding back the offense. And tonight was interesting in the 2nd half when Jokic sat, Dallas played DFS at center with Bullock at the 4. And they just absolutely blitzed the Denver bench. I know Rick had experimented in training camp the year prior with some DFS at center lineups but then never went with it. Be interesting to see if he runs that lineup out again.

[Lost92Bricks]

Re: Never a great 3-point shooter. He became pretty good, but not elite. Important though to note that - at least for me - I'm not talking about using him as an off-ball shooter, I'm talking about using him as a helio, which means that he's not the one you're looking to take the 3's, he's the one you're looking to attack inside the arc and pass out to others when he draws a double.

Blake is not good enough at that for it to be a effective strategy on a good team.

[cupcakesnake]

Jokic just doesn't fit the mold of what the average NBA fan thinks of as a good player. He's not the kind of guy kids will go home and try to mimic in the driveway and grow up idolizing... at least not on this side of the pond.

He'll never be respected until he puts together a ATG playoff run like Dirk did.

That's horrible because he's the perfect guy to watch, analyze and try to mimic - at least for a bigman. There are very few bigs that you could learn from watching them in play - Kevin McHale was certainly the one, Kareem to a lesser degree was the other. Jokic is in that very rare group.

Yeah especially since most kids in driveways aren't going to have elite athleticism. Jokic has so many useable tricks for gaining extra seperation. The same way Curry got a generation to speed up their release, a more popular Jokic would have kids learning better footwork and having a better release point on shots in the mid-post. Everyone should be figuring out what goes into that weird floater hook shot.

Can't mimic elite passing instincts but there's a lot of Jokic's game that would benefit almost any player.

[Max123]

This Nets-Warriors matchup is one I’ve been looking forwards to; just plenty of interesting things to look for.


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[RCM88x]

Warriors are gonna win 60+ games.

[MisterHibachi]

Warriors being this good again is disgusting. Why are my basketball rooting interests so annoying this year.

[MartinToVaught]

I'm retroactively dumbfounded at how close the Clippers kept it with the Warriors without Kawhi or Batum. It feels like the Warriors have been crushing everyone this year.

I was a huge Warriors hater since the Mark Jackson era, but at this point they're the lesser evil compared to the Lakers and Nets, so I don't mind.

[PaulieWal]

Lol at Warriors dismantling the Nets. They look a step above everyone else. What are the odds the Warriors face Lakers in the 1st round and beat them in 5?

[PaulieWal]

I'm retroactively dumbfounded at how close the Clippers kept it with the Warriors without Kawhi or Batum. It feels like the Warriors have been crushing everyone this year.

I was a huge Warriors hater since the Mark Jackson era, but at this point they're the lesser evil compared to the Lakers and Nets, so I don't mind.

As much as I like LeBron and used to like Russ, there's something incredibly funny seeing this Russ experiment blow up in Lebron's face.

[MisterHibachi]

Steph is an ****, what are these shots.

[Fadeaway_J]

Steph is just out of order.