Who is in your GOAT tier?

[Djoker]

We can go a bit further and calculate average minutes played per year throughout their primes:

1985-98 Jordan: 35887 minutes in 13 seasons - 2760 minutes per season

2004-18 James: 44298 minutes in 15 seasons - 2953 minutes per season

I really don't understand why you use seasons like 2012 to prove your take, while you completely ignore 1986 or 1995.

About 2012-22 only - I think we should realize that James was in his 9th season in 2012. That's the equivalent of 1993 Jordan. You should compare 2012-22 James to 1993-03 Jordan, not to young Jordan. In this case, James played significantly more minutes per year than Jordan, because Jordan only played 7 seasons in this span. How can you talk about load management, when Jordan literally took two long breaks from basketball?

Because I'm not trying to compare wear and tear over their careers. Lebron obviously played more full seasons but that's not what this argument was about. There is such a thing as seasonal wear and tear and even monthly and weekly wear and tear. Playing 65 games in a season is much easier than playing 80 games in a season. The latter has a higher probability of fatigue in the playoffs, injuries etc. in the given stretch. That's what I was getting at.

But LeBron didn't play 65 games in his prime, outside of one lockout season in 2012. LeBron averaged 76 games per season in 2003-18 period. Jordan averaged 72 games in his Bulls career.

You act like James consistently played less than 70 games and rested for most of his prime in RS. In reality, LeBron had exactly one season when he missed significant number of games in his prime - 2015 when he missed 13 games due to injury. Other than that, he didn't have a single season in his prime when he missed 10 games. The next biggest break he had was in 2017 when he missed 8 games. If you want to tell me that these 8 games is a gigantic advantage for LeBron, then I have to disagree.

You basically argue that Jordan playing 2-4 more games per RS is a huge deal. No, it isn't - playing 79 vs 82 games is no difference for an NBA superstar.

Ok I didn't claim that Lebron's workload was light every season. But 2012, 2015, 2017, 2019, 2020... that's a lot of prime seasons where he played significantly under a full season. And I said that this happened starting in 2012.

[70sFan]

Because I'm not trying to compare wear and tear over their careers. Lebron obviously played more full seasons but that's not what this argument was about. There is such a thing as seasonal wear and tear and even monthly and weekly wear and tear. Playing 65 games in a season is much easier than playing 80 games in a season. The latter has a higher probability of fatigue in the playoffs, injuries etc. in the given stretch. That's what I was getting at.

But LeBron didn't play 65 games in his prime, outside of one lockout season in 2012. LeBron averaged 76 games per season in 2003-18 period. Jordan averaged 72 games in his Bulls career.

You act like James consistently played less than 70 games and rested for most of his prime in RS. In reality, LeBron had exactly one season when he missed significant number of games in his prime - 2015 when he missed 13 games due to injury. Other than that, he didn't have a single season in his prime when he missed 10 games. The next biggest break he had was in 2017 when he missed 8 games. If you want to tell me that these 8 games is a gigantic advantage for LeBron, then I have to disagree.

You basically argue that Jordan playing 2-4 more games per RS is a huge deal. No, it isn't - playing 79 vs 82 games is no difference for an NBA superstar.

Ok I didn't claim that Lebron's workload was light every season. But 2012, 2015, 2017, 2019, 2020... that's a lot of prime seasons where he played significantly under a full season. And I said that this happened starting in 2012.

Calling 2019 or 2020 LeBron "prime" is a stretch, these are his 16th and 17th seasons...

2012 has nothing to do with load management. 2017 is a titanic 8 games. Why don't you take into account Jordan's 1986 or 1995 seasons then?

[PaulieWal]

Because I'm not trying to compare wear and tear over their careers. Lebron obviously played more full seasons but that's not what this argument was about. There is such a thing as seasonal wear and tear and even monthly and weekly wear and tear. Playing 65 games in a season is much easier than playing 80 games in a season. The latter has a higher probability of fatigue in the playoffs, injuries etc. in the given stretch. That's what I was getting at.

But LeBron didn't play 65 games in his prime, outside of one lockout season in 2012. LeBron averaged 76 games per season in 2003-18 period. Jordan averaged 72 games in his Bulls career.

You act like James consistently played less than 70 games and rested for most of his prime in RS. In reality, LeBron had exactly one season when he missed significant number of games in his prime - 2015 when he missed 13 games due to injury. Other than that, he didn't have a single season in his prime when he missed 10 games. The next biggest break he had was in 2017 when he missed 8 games. If you want to tell me that these 8 games is a gigantic advantage for LeBron, then I have to disagree.

You basically argue that Jordan playing 2-4 more games per RS is a huge deal. No, it isn't - playing 79 vs 82 games is no difference for an NBA superstar.

Ok I didn't claim that Lebron's workload was light every season. But 2012, 2015, 2017, 2019, 2020... that's a lot of prime seasons where he played significantly under a full season. And I said that this happened starting in 2012.

You didn't respond to my post but bringing 2017, 2019, 2020 doesn't make sense at all when as I said LeBron had matched Jordan's entire Bulls minutes played by 2015. Then you are comparing LeBron's 2017-2020 seasons to MJ's prime years in Chicago, but as pointed out, LeBron already matched that total in 2015. So it literally doesn't compute for me what your point is. Maybe I need a 3rd cup of coffee today

[Homer38]

But LeBron didn't play 65 games in his prime, outside of one lockout season in 2012. LeBron averaged 76 games per season in 2003-18 period. Jordan averaged 72 games in his Bulls career.

You act like James consistently played less than 70 games and rested for most of his prime in RS. In reality, LeBron had exactly one season when he missed significant number of games in his prime - 2015 when he missed 13 games due to injury. Other than that, he didn't have a single season in his prime when he missed 10 games. The next biggest break he had was in 2017 when he missed 8 games. If you want to tell me that these 8 games is a gigantic advantage for LeBron, then I have to disagree.

You basically argue that Jordan playing 2-4 more games per RS is a huge deal. No, it isn't - playing 79 vs 82 games is no difference for an NBA superstar.

Ok I didn't claim that Lebron's workload was light every season. But 2012, 2015, 2017, 2019, 2020... that's a lot of prime seasons where he played significantly under a full season. And I said that this happened starting in 2012.

Calling 2019 or 2020 LeBron "prime" is a stretch, these are his 16th and 17th seasons...

2012 has nothing to do with load management. 2017 is a titanic 8 games. Why don't you take into account Jordan's 1986 or 1995 seasons then?

and even then, LBJ had only missed 4 games in 2020, so he had no load management in that season.The only load management he had was in 2017 and it was 8 games, not 22 games like Kawhi in 2019

And the 2012 season were much more demanding than every other season of his career for him and Jordan since it was 66 games (62 games for him) in just 4-5 months and the playoffs after that ..... So many back to back in 2012 and at one point every team had a 3 games in 3 nights in their schedule, so to say that it was not too hard physically is ridiculous...

[PaulieWal]

Ok I didn't claim that Lebron's workload was light every season. But 2012, 2015, 2017, 2019, 2020... that's a lot of prime seasons where he played significantly under a full season. And I said that this happened starting in 2012.

Calling 2019 or 2020 LeBron "prime" is a stretch, these are his 16th and 17th seasons...

2012 has nothing to do with load management. 2017 is a titanic 8 games. Why don't you take into account Jordan's 1986 or 1995 seasons then?

and even then, LBJ had only missed 4 games in 2020, so he had no load management in that season.The only load management he had was in 2017 and it was 8 games, not 22 games like Kawhi in 2019

And the 2012 season were much more demanding than every other season of his career for him and Jordan since it was 66 games (62 games for him) in just 4-5 months and the playoffs after that ..... So many back to back in 2012 and at one point every team had a 3 games in 3 nights in their schedule, so to say that it was not too hard physically is ridiculous...

I remember players complaining a lot about the 2012 scheduling, didn't all teams have a stretch of 3 games in 3 nights and multiple 4 games in 5 nights? That season was condensed but it was intense and grueling in terms of the actual workload.

[rk2023]

Ok since you guys are still disputing literal facts I'm just going to post the numbers. Let's just compare their championship seasons in regular season minutes played.

2012 Lebron - 2326 mins
2013 Lebron - 2877 mins
2016 Lebron - 2709 mins
2020 Lebron - 2316 mins

Lebron Average: 2557 mins

1991 Jordan - 3034 mins
1992 Jordan - 3102 mins
1993 Jordan - 3067 mins
1996 Jordan - 3090 mins
1997 Jordan - 3106 mins
1998 Jordan - 3181 mins

Jordan Average: 3097 mins (21% more)

That's a significantly higher load for Jordan in their best seasons.

Overall Lebron has eight 3000+ minute seasons, with six of eight in his first six years from 2004-2009. The others are 2011 and 2018. Jordan has twelve 3000+ minute seasons including 1985, ten straight from 1987-1998 and then one more in 2003.

Lebron from 2012-2022 which is 11 straight seasons averaged 2453 minutes per season. He played an average of 67 games at 36.5 mpg during that span. No one is criticizing Lebron's early career but as the years went on, his loads in the regular season were very small historically compared to his predecessors. That cannot be disputed. Not all of it was load management. Some was legit injuries, some lockouts, some Covid-shortened seasons... Still a reduced load at the end of the day!

We can go a bit further and calculate average minutes played per year throughout their primes:

1985-98 Jordan: 35887 minutes in 13 seasons - 2760 minutes per season

2004-18 James: 44298 minutes in 15 seasons - 2953 minutes per season

I really don't understand why you use seasons like 2012 to prove your take, while you completely ignore 1986 or 1995.

About 2012-22 only - I think we should realize that James was in his 9th season in 2012. That's the equivalent of 1993 Jordan. You should compare 2012-22 James to 1993-03 Jordan, not to young Jordan. In this case, James played significantly more minutes per year than Jordan, because Jordan only played 7 seasons in this span. How can you talk about load management, when Jordan literally took two long breaks from basketball?

To add to this (although it might be an apples-to-oranges comparison):

2004-2018 James Playoffs: 239 Games, 42.0 Minutes/Game, 10049 Total Minutes (really 13 seasons from 06-18)
1985-1998 Jordan Playoffs: 179 Games, 41.8 Minutes/Game, 7474 Total Minutes

Playoff W/L and face value records, a driver of this stat, are situational most importantly. Regardless however, this debunks Djoker's notion Jordan simply took on more than James. I get that the sample ends at age 35 for Jordan and 33 for James, but to play devil's advocate.. James has the further NBA toll of minutes played at a young age (04-06 all younger than Jordan's rookie season) and not having the 2 year gap in his prime.

[capfan33]

I'm not comparing relative to league but to other GOAT candidates from other eras. I thought that was clear.

It is clear that your only intent is inventing a frame that makes Jordan look good. Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Duncan, and Lebron all played more in the first fourteen years of their NBA careers than Jordan did. But you want to pretend seasons where he put no mileage on his body do not exist while railing on Lebron for having the gall to play in lockout seasons. It is deeply unserious but entirely typical of the usual Jordan stan approach to anything that threatens their sense of his divinity.

Except I'm not a Jordan stan or even close. I actually became famous on NBA forums a decade ago for propagating Kareem's case for GOAT. And I've actually supported Lebron until the media machine started overrating him in my eyes, probably circa 2016 when he suddenly went from Lebron v. Bird debates to suddenly a GOAT candidate with only 3 rings. The RealGM Peaks project had Lebron's peak 10th in 2012 after he won his first title. In the latest edition he's 2nd with significant support for 1st. That jump in the evaluation of his peak makes no sense. Anyways... I've actually lost interest in debating this. People can support Lebron for GOAT. For me he will always be below Jordan/Kareem/Russell in whatever order you put them in.

Over time though, I admit I have become biased in a sense that I find the modern NBA lacking a soul. There is something about relaxing defensive rules, increasing pace, reducing minutes, load management, so many shortened seasons... they all destroy the destroy the game of basketball as I know it because I was old enough to watch before it degraded into THIS. There is something wrong about fans coming to watch games to see the biggest stars and then they are rested for phantom injuries. Or someone playing 35 mpg for 60 games then dominating in the playoffs... is it fair to say that's the same thing as someone who plays 38 mpg for 80 games then dominating in the playoffs? I don't even know how to put Lebron's performances in the second half of his career or the entire careers of Durant, Curry, Giannis etc. into their proper context. On one hand a guy like Curry is amazing maybe the greatest offensive wizard ever but on the other hand I can see myself putting him out of the top 20. He is currently 174th in career minutes played at 34 years of age. Would Curry even still be in the league if he had to play 80 games at 38 mpg against hand-checking for the last 10 seasons? That's a question that pops up in the my mind sometimes. Or just how deadly would Jordan be if defenders couldn't breathe on him and he played 60 games every regular season to rest for the playoffs? Would he average 38 ppg instead of 33 ppg in the postseason? It's as difficult to compare the modern NBA to the 90's for instance as it is to compare the 90's to the 60's. Just a totally different game and so many factors that are impossible to account for.

And stylistically, shooting so many threes has made the game more of a shooting contest than tactics and exploiting matchups. What used to be bad offense is now good offense. Sure... analytically yes. A 3pt shot is worth more than a 2pt one so with reasonably good shooting hoisting them up is good offense but boy is it god awful to watch.

The game has also gotten incredibly stat-oriented. So many times you're watching guys putting up huge box score numbers with very little impact. And with the media's obsession about stats, this is likely to get worse. In recent years, players like Harden, Giannis, Jokic and Luka have obliterated a lot of statistical records. But it feels empty in a way. Is a 25/5/5 season as valuable now as it was twenty years ago when you have other stars putting up 36/6/8, 34/9/9, 28/12/7, 30/13/6 and so on...

Just a few comments reading this thread. Firstly, honestly, who gives a **** about a few regular season games here and there, in the grand scheme of things it shouldn't matter unless someone is getting injured frequently enough to cost their team playoff seeding, and even then I'm not sure it matters that much. And Lebron has probably the most mileage on his body of anyone in NBA history considering the playoffs. Not to mention Lebron's well-documented dedication to his body and the sport in general, I think it's a pretty weird argument to use against Lebron.

But more to your broader point funny enough, I actually generally agree with you. The game is way too offensively oriented currently and stats are not really comparable to past eras much in the same way 60s stats aren't really comparable to other eras. The balance and beauty of the game has been disrupted and I think the way the game is reffed isn't great.

But that's...not Lebron's fault lol. If you switched MJ and Lebron's timelines, would that change your evaluation of them as players? It shouldn't, greatness is greatness, innate talent is immortal. Your enjoyment of the current era shouldn't color your perception of the players playing in it (ideally).

And moreover, you talk about the difficulty of contextualizing stuff, I mean is that not the entire point of this forum? If we want to read stats and accolades from basketball references, we don't need a forum to do that. I'm not gonna pretend the conclusions we reach are even close to perfect, but like most things in life, it's the process that matters. Just because we can't reach a perfectly accurate conclusion doesn't mean there's no use in trying.

[falcolombardi]

It is clear that your only intent is inventing a frame that makes Jordan look good. Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Duncan, and Lebron all played more in the first fourteen years of their NBA careers than Jordan did. But you want to pretend seasons where he put no mileage on his body do not exist while railing on Lebron for having the gall to play in lockout seasons. It is deeply unserious but entirely typical of the usual Jordan stan approach to anything that threatens their sense of his divinity.

Except I'm not a Jordan stan or even close. I actually became famous on NBA forums a decade ago for propagating Kareem's case for GOAT. And I've actually supported Lebron until the media machine started overrating him in my eyes, probably circa 2016 when he suddenly went from Lebron v. Bird debates to suddenly a GOAT candidate with only 3 rings. The RealGM Peaks project had Lebron's peak 10th in 2012 after he won his first title. In the latest edition he's 2nd with significant support for 1st. That jump in the evaluation of his peak makes no sense. Anyways... I've actually lost interest in debating this. People can support Lebron for GOAT. For me he will always be below Jordan/Kareem/Russell in whatever order you put them in.

Over time though, I admit I have become biased in a sense that I find the modern NBA lacking a soul. There is something about relaxing defensive rules, increasing pace, reducing minutes, load management, so many shortened seasons... they all destroy the destroy the game of basketball as I know it because I was old enough to watch before it degraded into THIS. There is something wrong about fans coming to watch games to see the biggest stars and then they are rested for phantom injuries. Or someone playing 35 mpg for 60 games then dominating in the playoffs... is it fair to say that's the same thing as someone who plays 38 mpg for 80 games then dominating in the playoffs? I don't even know how to put Lebron's performances in the second half of his career or the entire careers of Durant, Curry, Giannis etc. into their proper context. On one hand a guy like Curry is amazing maybe the greatest offensive wizard ever but on the other hand I can see myself putting him out of the top 20. He is currently 174th in career minutes played at 34 years of age. Would Curry even still be in the league if he had to play 80 games at 38 mpg against hand-checking for the last 10 seasons? That's a question that pops up in the my mind sometimes. Or just how deadly would Jordan be if defenders couldn't breathe on him and he played 60 games every regular season to rest for the playoffs? Would he average 38 ppg instead of 33 ppg in the postseason? It's as difficult to compare the modern NBA to the 90's for instance as it is to compare the 90's to the 60's. Just a totally different game and so many factors that are impossible to account for.

And stylistically, shooting so many threes has made the game more of a shooting contest than tactics and exploiting matchups. What used to be bad offense is now good offense. Sure... analytically yes. A 3pt shot is worth more than a 2pt one so with reasonably good shooting hoisting them up is good offense but boy is it god awful to watch.

The game has also gotten incredibly stat-oriented. So many times you're watching guys putting up huge box score numbers with very little impact. And with the media's obsession about stats, this is likely to get worse. In recent years, players like Harden, Giannis, Jokic and Luka have obliterated a lot of statistical records. But it feels empty in a way. Is a 25/5/5 season as valuable now as it was twenty years ago when you have other stars putting up 36/6/8, 34/9/9, 28/12/7, 30/13/6 and so on...

Just a few comments reading this thread. Firstly, honestly, who gives a **** about a few regular season games here and there, in the grand scheme of things it shouldn't matter unless someone is getting injured frequently enough to cost their team playoff seeding, and even then I'm not sure it matters that much. And Lebron has probably the most mileage on his body of anyone in NBA history considering the playoffs. Not to mention Lebron's well-documented dedication to his body and the sport in general, I think it's a pretty weird argument to use against Lebron.

But more to your broader point funny enough, I actually generally agree with you. The game is way too offensively oriented currently and stats are not really comparable to past eras much in the same way 60s stats aren't really comparable to other eras. The balance and beauty of the game has been disrupted and I think the way the game is reffed isn't great.

But that's...not Lebron's fault lol. If you switched MJ and Lebron's timelines, would that change your evaluation of them as players? It shouldn't, greatness is greatness, innate talent is immortal. Your enjoyment of the current era shouldn't color your perception of the players playing in it (ideally).

And moreover, you talk about the difficulty of contextualizing stuff, I mean is that not the entire point of this forum? If we want to read stats and accolades from basketball references, we don't need a forum to do that. I'm not gonna pretend the conclusions we reach are even close to perfect, but like most things in life, it's the process that matters. Just because we can't reach a perfectly accurate conclusion doesn't mean there's no use in trying.

Seems important to remind that 2006-2018 had the same offensive ratings than jordan's 85-97 stretch

Is only lebron late prime/ post prime years like 2020 where he played in a league more offensive friendly tham jordan

[Colbinii]

Except I'm not a Jordan stan or even close. I actually became famous on NBA forums a decade ago for propagating Kareem's case for GOAT. And I've actually supported Lebron until the media machine started overrating him in my eyes, probably circa 2016 when he suddenly went from Lebron v. Bird debates to suddenly a GOAT candidate with only 3 rings. The RealGM Peaks project had Lebron's peak 10th in 2012 after he won his first title. In the latest edition he's 2nd with significant support for 1st. That jump in the evaluation of his peak makes no sense. Anyways... I've actually lost interest in debating this. People can support Lebron for GOAT. For me he will always be below Jordan/Kareem/Russell in whatever order you put them in.

Over time though, I admit I have become biased in a sense that I find the modern NBA lacking a soul. There is something about relaxing defensive rules, increasing pace, reducing minutes, load management, so many shortened seasons... they all destroy the destroy the game of basketball as I know it because I was old enough to watch before it degraded into THIS. There is something wrong about fans coming to watch games to see the biggest stars and then they are rested for phantom injuries. Or someone playing 35 mpg for 60 games then dominating in the playoffs... is it fair to say that's the same thing as someone who plays 38 mpg for 80 games then dominating in the playoffs? I don't even know how to put Lebron's performances in the second half of his career or the entire careers of Durant, Curry, Giannis etc. into their proper context. On one hand a guy like Curry is amazing maybe the greatest offensive wizard ever but on the other hand I can see myself putting him out of the top 20. He is currently 174th in career minutes played at 34 years of age. Would Curry even still be in the league if he had to play 80 games at 38 mpg against hand-checking for the last 10 seasons? That's a question that pops up in the my mind sometimes. Or just how deadly would Jordan be if defenders couldn't breathe on him and he played 60 games every regular season to rest for the playoffs? Would he average 38 ppg instead of 33 ppg in the postseason? It's as difficult to compare the modern NBA to the 90's for instance as it is to compare the 90's to the 60's. Just a totally different game and so many factors that are impossible to account for.

And stylistically, shooting so many threes has made the game more of a shooting contest than tactics and exploiting matchups. What used to be bad offense is now good offense. Sure... analytically yes. A 3pt shot is worth more than a 2pt one so with reasonably good shooting hoisting them up is good offense but boy is it god awful to watch.

The game has also gotten incredibly stat-oriented. So many times you're watching guys putting up huge box score numbers with very little impact. And with the media's obsession about stats, this is likely to get worse. In recent years, players like Harden, Giannis, Jokic and Luka have obliterated a lot of statistical records. But it feels empty in a way. Is a 25/5/5 season as valuable now as it was twenty years ago when you have other stars putting up 36/6/8, 34/9/9, 28/12/7, 30/13/6 and so on...

Just a few comments reading this thread. Firstly, honestly, who gives a **** about a few regular season games here and there, in the grand scheme of things it shouldn't matter unless someone is getting injured frequently enough to cost their team playoff seeding, and even then I'm not sure it matters that much. And Lebron has probably the most mileage on his body of anyone in NBA history considering the playoffs. Not to mention Lebron's well-documented dedication to his body and the sport in general, I think it's a pretty weird argument to use against Lebron.

But more to your broader point funny enough, I actually generally agree with you. The game is way too offensively oriented currently and stats are not really comparable to past eras much in the same way 60s stats aren't really comparable to other eras. The balance and beauty of the game has been disrupted and I think the way the game is reffed isn't great.

But that's...not Lebron's fault lol. If you switched MJ and Lebron's timelines, would that change your evaluation of them as players? It shouldn't, greatness is greatness, innate talent is immortal. Your enjoyment of the current era shouldn't color your perception of the players playing in it (ideally).

And moreover, you talk about the difficulty of contextualizing stuff, I mean is that not the entire point of this forum? If we want to read stats and accolades from basketball references, we don't need a forum to do that. I'm not gonna pretend the conclusions we reach are even close to perfect, but like most things in life, it's the process that matters. Just because we can't reach a perfectly accurate conclusion doesn't mean there's no use in trying.

Seems important to remind that 2006-2018 had the same offensive ratings than jordan's 85-97 stretch

Is only lebron late prime/ post prime years like 2020 where he played in a league more offensive friendly tham jordan

Pretending the league environment for LeBron's entire career was far more forgiving to him compared to Jordan's doesn't fit certain narratives though.

[PistolPeteJR]

If you are gonna go by total minutes per year you should include 94 and 95 in the equation then or 86 for that matter

It makes no sense to mention 2012-2020 total minutes which were affected by injuries and shortened seasons, but not include 94 and 95 in jordan minutes played across the 91-98 stretch

Other than 2009 and 2018, Lebron has no other prime season above 3000 minutes played. Jordan's has 10 consecutive prime seasons from 1987-1998 above 3000 minutes. Or 10 out of 11 seasons if you insist on including 1995.

And in some of Lebron's title seasons in particular like 2012 and 2020 his minute totals are laughable.

Not sure what your point is at all to be honest.....minutes are a cumulative burden on an athlete's body. Of all the things to say MJ>LeBron seems to be a weird argument given that LeBron had already matched Jordan's Chicago Bull's RS minutes by 2015.

His point is "where there's a will, there's a way". The agenda stinks.

[Djoker]

Just a few comments reading this thread. Firstly, honestly, who gives a **** about a few regular season games here and there, in the grand scheme of things it shouldn't matter unless someone is getting injured frequently enough to cost their team playoff seeding, and even then I'm not sure it matters that much. And Lebron has probably the most mileage on his body of anyone in NBA history considering the playoffs. Not to mention Lebron's well-documented dedication to his body and the sport in general, I think it's a pretty weird argument to use against Lebron.

See the bolded is exactly the problem. The regular season absolutely don't matter now. That's clear as day. But it wasn't always like that. And the issue becomes when comparing those different generations. Since only playoffs matter today... how do I compare a 90's great who was an A+ player in the regular season and an A+ player in the playoffs to a modern star who is a B+ player in the regular season and an A+ player in the playoffs? I feel weird saying the 90's great is clearly better because then I'm effectively blaming the modern player who isn't trying in meaningless regular season games. But if I say they are equal because only playoffs matter then I'm not giving credit to the guy who did the harder job.

But more to your broader point funny enough, I actually generally agree with you. The game is way too offensively oriented currently and stats are not really comparable to past eras much in the same way 60s stats aren't really comparable to other eras. The balance and beauty of the game has been disrupted and I think the way the game is reffed isn't great.

Yep.

But that's...not Lebron's fault lol. If you switched MJ and Lebron's timelines, would that change your evaluation of them as players? It shouldn't, greatness is greatness, innate talent is immortal. Your enjoyment of the current era shouldn't color your perception of the players playing in it (ideally).

It's not Lebron's fault per se but he benefited from the offensively oriented game and from having to play only 20 great (playoff) games every year.

And moreover, you talk about the difficulty of contextualizing stuff, I mean is that not the entire point of this forum? If we want to read stats and accolades from basketball references, we don't need a forum to do that. I'm not gonna pretend the conclusions we reach are even close to perfect, but like most things in life, it's the process that matters. Just because we can't reach a perfectly accurate conclusion doesn't mean there's no use in trying.

I wholeheartedly agree but reaching conclusions with a group of people who have inherent biases is difficult. Both Doctor MJ and myself have felt strawman-ed at times in this thread. Not that I'm above the pack by the way. I myself admit to having biases. But anyone who thinks I have extreme views or stan a player... any player... is going to come out disappointed. I've been called a Lebron-hater since around 2016 but I have him ranked #4 all-time which is a reasonable ranking. And I can see him moving up higher and can already see a case for him as GOAT depending on the criteria.

And certain things are difficult to contextualize such as rule changes, officiating, pace and like I mentioned above the obsolete nature of the regular season in the modern NBA.

It's ironic that several posters insisted on "within era" comparisons as in "Lebron's workloads are much higher than other stars in the modern league..." so he's doing fine. The problem is that if we use this line of thinking universally when comparing GOAT candidates in all statistics/metrics, Lebron can hardly come out ahead of Russell, Jordan or Kareem in a prime vs. prime comparison. All three of those guys were more dominant relative to their peers than Lebron was. In fact add Wilt to that list as well if we are talking just stats and records.

Of course many of the same posters like AEnigma then quickly shift to " in a more schematically developed and higher talent league" when referring to the modern era. So much for within era comparisons. if you point out that past greats were more dominant, then you're quickly hit with "Yea but weak era...".

[AEnigma]

Just a few comments reading this thread. Firstly, honestly, who gives a **** about a few regular season games here and there, in the grand scheme of things it shouldn't matter unless someone is getting injured frequently enough to cost their team playoff seeding, and even then I'm not sure it matters that much. And Lebron has probably the most mileage on his body of anyone in NBA history considering the playoffs. Not to mention Lebron's well-documented dedication to his body and the sport in general, I think it's a pretty weird argument to use against Lebron.

See the bolded is exactly the problem. The regular season absolutely don't matter now. That's clear as day. But it wasn't always like that.

… No, it was… The postseason is always what mattered more. Auerbach and Russell and Heinsohn all knew it. Isiah Thomas and Chuck Daly knew it. Hakeem knew it. Phil Jackson knew it. Reggie Miller knew it. Greg Popovich knew it. Shaq knew it. Wade knew it. Dirk figured it out, then he helped Lebron figure it out, and then Lebron helped the Warriors figure it out. This is not soccer. This is not even hockey. There is no regular season trophy. No one hangs a banner for the regular season. This has always been the reality. Why cry over teams being smarter with how they try to prepare for the only part that has ever mattered to them.

And the issue becomes when comparing those different generations. Since only playoffs matter today... how do I compare a 90's great who was an A+ player in the regular season and an A+ player in the playoffs to a modern star who is a B+ player in the regular season and an A+ player in the playoffs?

… Pick the better player? You are doing the Jordan thing where we pretend it is a tie but for this abstract and specific area where actually I think that favours Jordan so therefore he wins the “tiebreak”.

I feel weird saying the 90's great is clearly better because then I'm effectively blaming the modern player who isn't trying in meaningless regular season games. But if I say they are equal because only playoffs matter then I'm not giving credit to the guy who did the harder job.

… But what makes it the harder job. Again, acting as if all other things are equal but for one playing a couple of extra regular season games in healthy seasons. They are not.

But that's...not Lebron's fault lol. If you switched MJ and Lebron's timelines, would that change your evaluation of them as players? It shouldn't, greatness is greatness, innate talent is immortal. Your enjoyment of the current era shouldn't color your perception of the players playing in it (ideally).

It's not Lebron's fault per se but he benefited from the offensively oriented game

Classically ignoring that league offences were basically just as good for the bulk of Lebron’s career. Again, what is reality in the face of raw nostalgia…

and from having to play only 20 great (playoff) games every year.

Sorry, you seem to be thinking of 1986 and 1995 Jordan.

And moreover, you talk about the difficulty of contextualizing stuff, I mean is that not the entire point of this forum? If we want to read stats and accolades from basketball references, we don't need a forum to do that. I'm not gonna pretend the conclusions we reach are even close to perfect, but like most things in life, it's the process that matters. Just because we can't reach a perfectly accurate conclusion doesn't mean there's no use in trying.

I wholeheartedly agree but reaching conclusions with a group of people who have inherent biases is difficult. Both Doctor MJ and myself have felt strawman-ed at times in this thread. Not that I'm above the pack by the way. I myself admit to having biases. But anyone who thinks I have extreme views or stan a player... any player... is going to come out disappointed. I've been called a Lebron-hater since around 2016 but I have him ranked #4 all-time which is a reasonable ranking.

To be reasonable it needs to have valid reasoning behind it. Not setting a great example so far.

And certain things are difficult to contextualize such as rule changes, officiating, pace

You are not even trying to do that.

and like I mentioned above the obsolete nature of the regular season in the modern NBA.

That is not contextualisation, that is narrativisation.

It's ironic that several posters insisted on "within era" comparisons as in "Lebron's workloads are much higher than other stars in the modern league..." so he's doing fine. The problem is that if we use this line of thinking universally when comparing GOAT candidates in all statistics/metrics, Lebron can hardly come out ahead of Russell, Jordan or Kareem in a prime vs. prime comparison. All three of those guys were more dominant relative to their peers than Lebron was. In fact add Wilt to that list as well if we are talking just stats and records.

Of course many of the same posters like AEnigma then quickly shift to " in a more schematically developed and higher talent league" when referring to the modern era. So much for within era comparisons. if you point out that past greats were more dominant, then you're quickly hit with "Yea but weak era...".

Because exceedingly few people are actually committed to it. You say Lebron backers try to have it both ways? No. And here is an actual strawman. No one in this thread claimed Lebron was “more dominant” relative to his league than Russell was. What was said was specifically that he played more relative to his era than Jordan did. Simple claim, immediately countered with “oh well Russell and Wilt were even higher.” True! Great! But you are not here bending over backward for them. Jordan devotees strangely never do. They are of no interest as anything other than another nostalgic cudgel.

The issue is that backing Jordan inherently means that is not your standard. And any Lebron backer knows that. It is also not their standard, but unlike Jordan backers, they never pretend it is. Because by that standard, yes, it is Russell and Wilt and Kareem (and Mikan) who sit at the top. Era relative dominance only matters so far as it can be used to undercut Lebron. Once it hits Jordan by logical extension, oops, time to drop it and move on.

So no, it is not me “quickly shifting” to which is the better league. By the same era relative analysis that you pretend to care about when convenient, Lebron stands out more than Jordan here. And he plays in a demonstrably better league. Well, that is unacceptable. Cue the lamentations over how things used to be so much better actually and so much more authentic and blah blah blah, whatever gets us to move back just as far as nostalgia demands but absolutely no further. Peak basketball was when Jordan played and please do not ever interrogate that idea.

[PistolPeteJR]

I'm not comparing relative to league but to other GOAT candidates from other eras. I thought that was clear.

It is clear that your only intent is inventing a frame that makes Jordan look good. Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Duncan, and Lebron all played more in the first fourteen years of their NBA careers than Jordan did. But you want to pretend seasons where he put no mileage on his body do not exist while railing on Lebron for having the gall to play in lockout seasons. It is deeply unserious but entirely typical of the usual Jordan stan approach to anything that threatens their sense of his divinity.

Except I'm not a Jordan stan or even close. I actually became famous on NBA forums a decade ago for propagating Kareem's case for GOAT. And I've actually supported Lebron until the media machine started overrating him in my eyes, probably circa 2016 when he suddenly went from Lebron v. Bird debates to suddenly a GOAT candidate with only 3 rings. The RealGM Peaks project had Lebron's peak 10th in 2012 after he won his first title. In the latest edition he's 2nd with significant support for 1st. That jump in the evaluation of his peak makes no sense. Anyways... I've actually lost interest in debating this. People can support Lebron for GOAT. For me he will always be below Jordan/Kareem/Russell in whatever order you put them in.

Over time though, I admit I have become biased in a sense that I find the modern NBA lacking a soul. There is something about relaxing defensive rules, increasing pace, reducing minutes, load management, so many shortened seasons... they all destroy the destroy the game of basketball as I know it because I was old enough to watch before it degraded into THIS. There is something wrong about fans coming to watch games to see the biggest stars and then they are rested for phantom injuries. Or someone playing 35 mpg for 60 games then dominating in the playoffs... is it fair to say that's the same thing as someone who plays 38 mpg for 80 games then dominating in the playoffs? I don't even know how to put Lebron's performances in the second half of his career or the entire careers of Durant, Curry, Giannis etc. into their proper context. On one hand a guy like Curry is amazing maybe the greatest offensive wizard ever but on the other hand I can see myself putting him out of the top 20. He is currently 174th in career minutes played at 34 years of age. Would Curry even still be in the league if he had to play 80 games at 38 mpg against hand-checking for the last 10 seasons? That's a question that pops up in the my mind sometimes. Or just how deadly would Jordan be if defenders couldn't breathe on him and he played 60 games every regular season to rest for the playoffs? Would he average 38 ppg instead of 33 ppg in the postseason? It's as difficult to compare the modern NBA to the 90's for instance as it is to compare the 90's to the 60's. Just a totally different game and so many factors that are impossible to account for.

And stylistically, shooting so many threes has made the game more of a shooting contest than tactics and exploiting matchups. What used to be bad offense is now good offense. Sure... analytically yes. A 3pt shot is worth more than a 2pt one so with reasonably good shooting hoisting them up is good offense but boy is it god awful to watch.

The game has also gotten incredibly stat-oriented. So many times you're watching guys putting up huge box score numbers with very little impact. And with the media's obsession about stats, this is likely to get worse. In recent years, players like Harden, Giannis, Jokic and Luka have obliterated a lot of statistical records. But it feels empty in a way. Is a 25/5/5 season as valuable now as it was twenty years ago when you have other stars putting up 36/6/8, 34/9/9, 28/12/7, 30/13/6 and so on...

Come on lol, puffing up much?

[LukaTheGOAT]

I'm not comparing relative to league but to other GOAT candidates from other eras. I thought that was clear.

It is clear that your only intent is inventing a frame that makes Jordan look good. Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Duncan, and Lebron all played more in the first fourteen years of their NBA careers than Jordan did. But you want to pretend seasons where he put no mileage on his body do not exist while railing on Lebron for having the gall to play in lockout seasons. It is deeply unserious but entirely typical of the usual Jordan stan approach to anything that threatens their sense of his divinity.

Except I'm not a Jordan stan or even close. I actually became famous on NBA forums a decade ago for propagating Kareem's case for GOAT. And I've actually supported Lebron until the media machine started overrating him in my eyes, probably circa 2016 when he suddenly went from Lebron v. Bird debates to suddenly a GOAT candidate with only 3 rings. The RealGM Peaks project had Lebron's peak 10th in 2012 after he won his first title. In the latest edition he's 2nd with significant support for 1st. That jump in the evaluation of his peak makes no sense. Anyways... I've actually lost interest in debating this. People can support Lebron for GOAT. For me he will always be below Jordan/Kareem/Russell in whatever order you put them in.

Over time though, I admit I have become biased in a sense that I find the modern NBA lacking a soul. There is something about relaxing defensive rules, increasing pace, reducing minutes, load management, so many shortened seasons... they all destroy the destroy the game of basketball as I know it because I was old enough to watch before it degraded into THIS. There is something wrong about fans coming to watch games to see the biggest stars and then they are rested for phantom injuries. Or someone playing 35 mpg for 60 games then dominating in the playoffs... is it fair to say that's the same thing as someone who plays 38 mpg for 80 games then dominating in the playoffs? I don't even know how to put Lebron's performances in the second half of his career or the entire careers of Durant, Curry, Giannis etc. into their proper context. On one hand a guy like Curry is amazing maybe the greatest offensive wizard ever but on the other hand I can see myself putting him out of the top 20. He is currently 174th in career minutes played at 34 years of age. Would Curry even still be in the league if he had to play 80 games at 38 mpg against hand-checking for the last 10 seasons? That's a question that pops up in the my mind sometimes. Or just how deadly would Jordan be if defenders couldn't breathe on him and he played 60 games every regular season to rest for the playoffs? Would he average 38 ppg instead of 33 ppg in the postseason? It's as difficult to compare the modern NBA to the 90's for instance as it is to compare the 90's to the 60's. Just a totally different game and so many factors that are impossible to account for.

And stylistically, shooting so many threes has made the game more of a shooting contest than tactics and exploiting matchups. What used to be bad offense is now good offense. Sure... analytically yes. A 3pt shot is worth more than a 2pt one so with reasonably good shooting hoisting them up is good offense but boy is it god awful to watch.

The game has also gotten incredibly stat-oriented. So many times you're watching guys putting up huge box score numbers with very little impact. And with the media's obsession about stats, this is likely to get worse. In recent years, players like Harden, Giannis, Jokic and Luka have obliterated a lot of statistical records. But it feels empty in a way. Is a 25/5/5 season as valuable now as it was twenty years ago when you have other stars putting up 36/6/8, 34/9/9, 28/12/7, 30/13/6 and so on...

To be technical, the GOAT peaks discussion you mention in 2012, wouldn't include his 2013 nor 2016 seasons. His 2013 season usually gets the most fervor as his overall peak. If you actually look at the next GOAT peaks voting that goes on, his 2013 season leaves quite the impression on people and his peak moves up to #3 in overall peaks I'm pretty sure. And 2016 also seems to get a decent amount of attention for his personal peak.

[Djoker]

Come on lol, puffing up much?

Not at all. I've been posting as Danko/dankok8/Djoker at Insidehoops, Hoops-Nation, and Hoopshype as well as here intermittently for well over a decade and people were citing my articles about Kareem. It is what it is. And I didn't post that to brag about it but just to dispel any notions that I'm a Jordan stan because my arguments in this thread have been strawman-ed and everything I say tends to be taken out of context or greatly exaggerated.

To be technical, the GOAT peaks discussion you mention in 2012, wouldn't include his 2013 nor 2016 seasons. His 2013 season usually gets the most fervor as his overall peak. If you actually look at the next GOAT peaks voting that goes on, his 2013 season leaves quite the impression on people and his peak moves up to #3 in overall peaks I'm pretty sure. And 2016 also seems to get a decent amount of attention for his personal peak.

Are we seriously going to pretend that 2009/2012 Lebron are the 10th highest peaks ever but 2013 Lebron is the 2nd highest peak ever? Come on now...

[Djoker]

Just a few comments reading this thread. Firstly, honestly, who gives a **** about a few regular season games here and there, in the grand scheme of things it shouldn't matter unless someone is getting injured frequently enough to cost their team playoff seeding, and even then I'm not sure it matters that much. And Lebron has probably the most mileage on his body of anyone in NBA history considering the playoffs. Not to mention Lebron's well-documented dedication to his body and the sport in general, I think it's a pretty weird argument to use against Lebron.

See the bolded is exactly the problem. The regular season absolutely don't matter now. That's clear as day. But it wasn't always like that.

… No, it was… The postseason is always what mattered more. Auerbach and Russell and Heinsohn all knew it. Isiah Thomas and Chuck Daly knew it. Hakeem knew it. Phil Jackson knew it. Reggie Miller knew it. Greg Popovich knew it. Shaq knew it. Wade knew it. Dirk figured it out, then he helped Lebron figure it out, and then Lebron helped the Warriors figure it out. This is not soccer. This is not even hockey. There is no regular season trophy. No one hangs a banner for the regular season. This has always been the reality. Why cry over teams being smarter with how they try to prepare for the only part that has ever mattered to them.

Here you are strawmanning me again. I said that the regular season STILL MATTERED back then and that today it doesn't matter at all. The postseason was always more important but the regular season didn't always feel irrelevant.

And the issue becomes when comparing those different generations. Since only playoffs matter today... how do I compare a 90's great who was an A+ player in the regular season and an A+ player in the playoffs to a modern star who is a B+ player in the regular season and an A+ player in the playoffs?

… Pick the better player? You are doing the Jordan thing where we pretend it is a tie but for this abstract and specific area where actually I think that favours Jordan so therefore he wins the “tiebreak”.

There is nothing abstract about it. And it's not Jordan vs. Lebron only. It applies to any comparison.

I feel weird saying the 90's great is clearly better because then I'm effectively blaming the modern player who isn't trying in meaningless regular season games. But if I say they are equal because only playoffs matter then I'm not giving credit to the guy who did the harder job.

… But what makes it the harder job. Again, acting as if all other things are equal but for one playing a couple of extra regular season games in healthy seasons. They are not.

Playing more regular season games and those very regular season games having a higher intensity on top of it that is hard to quantify.

But that's...not Lebron's fault lol. If you switched MJ and Lebron's timelines, would that change your evaluation of them as players? It shouldn't, greatness is greatness, innate talent is immortal. Your enjoyment of the current era shouldn't color your perception of the players playing in it (ideally).

It's not Lebron's fault per se but he benefited from the offensively oriented game

Classically ignoring that league offences were basically just as good for the bulk of Lebron’s career. Again, what is reality in the face of raw nostalgia…

Again... I've repeated multiple times that the offensive oriented game has helped Lebron in the last 6-7 years. And not surprisingly, those are the years he's put up the best numbers of his postseason career.

and from having to play only 20 great (playoff) games every year.

Sorry, you seem to be thinking of 1986 and 1995 Jordan.

What?

And moreover, you talk about the difficulty of contextualizing stuff, I mean is that not the entire point of this forum? If we want to read stats and accolades from basketball references, we don't need a forum to do that. I'm not gonna pretend the conclusions we reach are even close to perfect, but like most things in life, it's the process that matters. Just because we can't reach a perfectly accurate conclusion doesn't mean there's no use in trying.

I wholeheartedly agree but reaching conclusions with a group of people who have inherent biases is difficult. Both Doctor MJ and myself have felt strawman-ed at times in this thread. Not that I'm above the pack by the way. I myself admit to having biases. But anyone who thinks I have extreme views or stan a player... any player... is going to come out disappointed. I've been called a Lebron-hater since around 2016 but I have him ranked #4 all-time which is a reasonable ranking.

To be reasonable it needs to have valid reasoning behind it. Not setting a great example so far.

Having Lebron ranked #4 all time in the GOAT tier isn't a reasonable stance? Ok.. I disagree.

And certain things are difficult to contextualize such as rule changes, officiating, pace

You are not even trying to do that.

Because I'm not able to.

and like I mentioned above the obsolete nature of the regular season in the modern NBA.

That is not contextualisation, that is narrativisation.

The reduced importance of the regular season in the modern NBA isn't a narrative. It's fact.

It's ironic that several posters insisted on "within era" comparisons as in "Lebron's workloads are much higher than other stars in the modern league..." so he's doing fine. The problem is that if we use this line of thinking universally when comparing GOAT candidates in all statistics/metrics, Lebron can hardly come out ahead of Russell, Jordan or Kareem in a prime vs. prime comparison. All three of those guys were more dominant relative to their peers than Lebron was. In fact add Wilt to that list as well if we are talking just stats and records.

Of course many of the same posters like AEnigma then quickly shift to " in a more schematically developed and higher talent league" when referring to the modern era. So much for within era comparisons. if you point out that past greats were more dominant, then you're quickly hit with "Yea but weak era...".

Because exceedingly few people are actually committed to it. You say Lebron backers try to have it both ways? No. And here is an actual strawman. No one in this thread claimed Lebron was “more dominant” relative to his league than Russell was. What was said was specifically that he played more relative to his era than Jordan did. Simple claim, immediately countered with “oh well Russell and Wilt were even higher.” True! Great! But you are not here bending over backward for them. Jordan devotees strangely never do. They are of no interest as anything other than another nostalgic cudgel.

The issue is that backing Jordan inherently means that is not your standard. And any Lebron backer knows that. It is also not their standard, but unlike Jordan backers, they never pretend it is. Because by that standard, yes, it is Russell and Wilt and Kareem (and Mikan) who sit at the top. Era relative dominance only matters so far as it can be used to undercut Lebron. Once it hits Jordan by logical extension, oops, time to drop it and move on.

So no, it is not me “quickly shifting” to which is the better league. By the same era relative analysis that you pretend to care about when convenient, Lebron stands out more than Jordan here. And he plays in a demonstrably better league. Well, that is unacceptable. Cue the lamentations over how things used to be so much better actually and so much more authentic and blah blah blah, whatever gets us to move back just as far as nostalgia demands but absolutely no further. Peak basketball was when Jordan played and please do not ever interrogate that idea.

Jordan was more dominant than Lebron relative to his era though. More teams led to championships, played on four historic teams (1991, 1992, 1996, 1997), led the league in scoring 10 times, won MVP 5 times, won DPOY once, led the league in advanced stats like PER/BPM/WS etc. by larger margins than Lebron did, never had terrible playoff moments. was very rarely if ever not the best player on the court in any playoff series... I could go on and on. You are going to counter with "Yea but weaker era.." and I'm not going to bother responding to that.

As for me having no interest to prop up Russell/Wilt/Kareem... actually you couldn't be more wrong. Russell is my #1 all time followed by Jordan at #2. Kareem at #3 and then Lebron at #4 with Wilt at #5. This has been my ranking for some time now.

[AEnigma]

See the bolded is exactly the problem. The regular season absolutely don't matter now. That's clear as day. But it wasn't always like that.

… No, it was… The postseason is always what mattered more. Auerbach and Russell and Heinsohn all knew it. Isiah Thomas and Chuck Daly knew it. Hakeem knew it. Phil Jackson knew it. Reggie Miller knew it. Greg Popovich knew it. Shaq knew it. Wade knew it. Dirk figured it out, then he helped Lebron figure it out, and then Lebron helped the Warriors figure it out. This is not soccer. This is not even hockey. There is no regular season trophy. No one hangs a banner for the regular season. This has always been the reality. Why cry over teams being smarter with how they try to prepare for the only part that has ever mattered to them.

Here you are strawmanning me again. I said that the regular season STILL MATTERED back then and that today it doesn't matter at all. The postseason was always more important but the regular season didn't always feel irrelevant.

Crazy how 99% of the time someone complains about being “strawmanned” here, it seems to be because they are upset that a bad take was challenged.

I know what you said. Nothing in my comment says you suggested otherwise. I am saying it is wrong. The regular season has always been what it is: a journey to the postseason. If the regular season “feels” less relevant, that is just because increasingly more people are figuring that out.

And the issue becomes when comparing those different generations. Since only playoffs matter today... how do I compare a 90's great who was an A+ player in the regular season and an A+ player in the playoffs to a modern star who is a B+ player in the regular season and an A+ player in the playoffs?

… Pick the better player? You are doing the Jordan thing where we pretend it is a tie but for this abstract and specific area where actually I think that favours Jordan so therefore he wins the “tiebreak”.

There is nothing abstract about it. And it's not Jordan vs. Lebron only. It applies to any comparison.

It is absolutely abstract, you are arbitrarily assigning grades basically because of minutes played.

I would take a Lebron regular season over a Jordan one without a second thought.

I feel weird saying the 90's great is clearly better because then I'm effectively blaming the modern player who isn't trying in meaningless regular season games. But if I say they are equal because only playoffs matter then I'm not giving credit to the guy who did the harder job.

… But what makes it the harder job. Again, acting as if all other things are equal but for one playing a couple of extra regular season games in healthy seasons. They are not.

Playing more regular season games and those very regular season games having a higher intensity on top of it that is hard to quantify.

Of course it is hard to quantify, you are literally just going off vibes and what you feel makes some sense to your gut rather than anything real.

It's not Lebron's fault per se but he benefited from the offensively oriented game

Classically ignoring that league offences were basically just as good for the bulk of Lebron’s career. Again, what is reality in the face of raw nostalgia…

Again... I've repeated multiple times that the offensive oriented game has helped Lebron in the last 6-7 years. And not surprisingly, those are the years he's put up the best numbers of his postseason career.

2018 League Average Offensive Rating: 108.6
2017 League Average Offensive Rating: 108.8
2016 League Average Offensive Rating: 106.4
2015 League Average Offensive Rating: 105.6
2014 League Average Offensive Rating: 106.6
2013 League Average Offensive Rating: 105.8
2012 League Average Offensive Rating: 104.6
1988-93 League Average Offensive Rating: 107.8-108.2 every year

I reiterate: what is reality in the face of raw nostalgia.

and from having to play only 20 great (playoff) games every year.

Sorry, you seem to be thinking of 1986 and 1995 Jordan.

What?

You know, when he made the playoffs despite only playing around fifteen regular season games? But please, go on about what a rough load he had to shoulder compared to Lebron doing it year after year after year after year after year after year after year…

I wholeheartedly agree but reaching conclusions with a group of people who have inherent biases is difficult. Both Doctor MJ and myself have felt strawman-ed at times in this thread. Not that I'm above the pack by the way. I myself admit to having biases. But anyone who thinks I have extreme views or stan a player... any player... is going to come out disappointed. I've been called a Lebron-hater since around 2016 but I have him ranked #4 all-time which is a reasonable ranking.

To be reasonable it needs to have valid reasoning behind it. Not setting a great example so far.

Having Lebron ranked #4 all time in the GOAT tier isn't a reasonable stance? Ok.. I disagree.

“To be reasonable it needs to have valid reasoning behind it. Not setting a great example so far.”

And certain things are difficult to contextualize such as rule changes, officiating, pace

You are not even trying to do that.

Because I'm not able to.

I know, but that does not mean you should just shrug your shoulders and crown Jordan.

and like I mentioned above the obsolete nature of the regular season in the modern NBA.

That is not contextualisation, that is narrativisation.

The reduced importance of the regular season in the modern NBA isn't a narrative. It's fact.

It is a narrative because you have nothing to support it being meaningful to any “context”.

It's ironic that several posters insisted on "within era" comparisons as in "Lebron's workloads are much higher than other stars in the modern league..." so he's doing fine. The problem is that if we use this line of thinking universally when comparing GOAT candidates in all statistics/metrics, Lebron can hardly come out ahead of Russell, Jordan or Kareem in a prime vs. prime comparison. All three of those guys were more dominant relative to their peers than Lebron was. In fact add Wilt to that list as well if we are talking just stats and records.

Of course many of the same posters like AEnigma then quickly shift to " in a more schematically developed and higher talent league" when referring to the modern era. So much for within era comparisons. if you point out that past greats were more dominant, then you're quickly hit with "Yea but weak era...".

Because exceedingly few people are actually committed to it. You say Lebron backers try to have it both ways? No. And here is an actual strawman. No one in this thread claimed Lebron was “more dominant” relative to his league than Russell was. What was said was specifically that he played more relative to his era than Jordan did. Simple claim, immediately countered with “oh well Russell and Wilt were even higher.” True! Great! But you are not here bending over backward for them. Jordan devotees strangely never do. They are of no interest as anything other than another nostalgic cudgel.

The issue is that backing Jordan inherently means that is not your standard. And any Lebron backer knows that. It is also not their standard, but unlike Jordan backers, they never pretend it is. Because by that standard, yes, it is Russell and Wilt and Kareem (and Mikan) who sit at the top. Era relative dominance only matters so far as it can be used to undercut Lebron. Once it hits Jordan by logical extension, oops, time to drop it and move on.

So no, it is not me “quickly shifting” to which is the better league. By the same era relative analysis that you pretend to care about when convenient, Lebron stands out more than Jordan here. And he plays in a demonstrably better league. Well, that is unacceptable. Cue the lamentations over how things used to be so much better actually and so much more authentic and blah blah blah, whatever gets us to move back just as far as nostalgia demands but absolutely no further. Peak basketball was when Jordan played and please do not ever interrogate that idea.

Jordan was more dominant than Lebron relative to his era though. More teams led to championships

Famously an individual accomplishment.

played on four historic teams (1991, 1992, 1996, 1997)

Famously an individual accomplishment.

led the league in scoring 10 times

Typically conflating scoring with “dominance”.

won MVP 5 times

True, he was more dominant at winning the MVP award.

won DPOY once

Lmao you do not even think he came close to deserving it, although my suspicion is you mean this in the sense that he was the more “dominant” defender relative to his league, and that is a shite argument coming directly off similar wins by Alvin Robertson and Michael Cooper.

led the league in advanced stats like PER/BPM/WS etc. by larger margins than Lebron did,

Which this thread has painstakingly gone over do not actually mean anything. They are just blended box score formulas. They are not real impact. Because of course if we were to ever try to look at real impact, Jordan’s case would again be dead in the water.

never had terrible playoff moments

Lol always what it comes back to. Crazy how every single Jordan backer decided that the case was dead in 2011. Very committed basketball analysis.

was very rarely if ever not the best player on the court in any playoff series...

I mean yeah the Pistons did not have any individual all-time stars but hard to see the relevance.

I could go on and on.

Yeah amazing how easy it is to go on when you just throw random things at the wall.

You are going to counter with "Yea but weaker era.." and I'm not going to bother responding to that.

Funny thing is these arguments were so lazy I do not even need to do that. Regardless, I already knew you would have no response to it.

As for me having no interest to prop up Russell/Wilt/Kareem... actually you couldn't be more wrong. Russell is my #1 all time followed by Jordan at #2. Kareem at #3 and then Lebron at #4 with Wilt at #5. This has been my ranking for some time now.

And my point is Jordan has no business being above Kareem (or Mikan) by anyone who claims to care about era relative dominance.

[Djoker]

Regarding the regular season mattering less than ever. Yes that's fact. Is it because coaches and players are now "smarter"? Sure I can give you that but it still doesn't change the fact that star players exert themselves less than ever in the regular season. I never really went into debating why it's the case. The bottom line is that regular season is less relevant than ever.

Regarding the league being more offensively oriented, here is the indisputable evidence:



Are you still denying that post 2016, the league average efficiency and pace are higher than Jordan's prime? And again, to repeat myself, the post-2016 period from 2017-2020 is the time that corresponds to Lebron's best playoff numbers. And those numbers were achieved in more offense-friendly environments...

Regarding throwing things at the wall? I posted all those things to respond to the whole dominance debate.

Jordan is more dominant in terms of winning, it terms of individual accolades (MVP, FMVP, DPOY, all-defense), in terms of statistics (both basic and aggregate box stats), in terms of consistency from series to series (no black marks like 2007, 2011 etc.). By real impact you must mean plus minus? We have very limited impact numbers for prime Jordan but what we do have isn't decisive in Lebron's favor. Ben Taylor doesn't think so either and has Lebron as the better floor-raiser and Jordan as the better ceiling-raiser and the latter is probably more helpful in building championship contenders.

[AEnigma]

Regarding the regular season mattering less than ever. Yes that's fact.

It is not a fact lol. Or at least, not looking past the prior three seasons. The purpose of the regular season has always been playoff seeding. That has not changed. In the past three years, playoff seeding principally expanded, so to that extent, sure, the regular season mattered less. Every year of Lebron’s career before it? Be in the top 8/15 in your conference.

Funnily enough, that is a tougher standard than most of Jordan’s career.

Is it because coaches and players are now "smarter"? Sure I can give you that but it still doesn't change the fact that star players exert themselves less than ever in the regular season.

Based on what. Games and minutes played? Why is that inherently equivalent to exertion?

I never really went into debating why it's the case.

Because that would made for an uncomfortable conversation about respective standards of both leagues’ level of play.

The bottom line is that regular season is less relevant than ever.

The bottom line is you still are only arguing based off vibes.

Regarding the league being more offensively oriented, here is the indisputable evidence:

Spoiler:

Are you still denying that post 2016, the league average efficiency and pace are higher than Jordan's prime? And again, to repeat myself, the post-2016 period from 2017-2020 is the time that corresponds to Lebron's best playoff numbers. And those numbers were achieved in more offense-friendly environments...

Fascinating. So, to be clear, in measuring “offensive environment”, we do not measure offences. What we actually measure is pace — which as we see from the 1960s and 1970s, is oh so very tied to offensive efficiency — and true shooting, because after all, there is no other consideration in assessing offensive efficiency than expected shot value. That is why when I see people saying the Celtics, Suns, and Jazz have the three best offences in the league, I know they are full of it, because actually the top true shooting teams are the Celtics, Kings, and Nets.

Always enlightening how creative Jordan’s army gets when backed into a corner.

By real impact you must mean plus minus? We have very limited impact numbers for prime Jordan but what we do have isn't decisive in Lebron's favor.

It is not especially limited anymore, but I am deeply curious how we are defining “not decisive” here — and why we would care about anything else when assessing a player’s quality.

Ben Taylor doesn't think so either and has Lebron as the better floor-raiser and Jordan as the better ceiling-raiser

Personal labels based on aesthetic preferences, yes. Again, no shortage of arguments have been provided as to why that ultimately constitutes a cheap dodge of what his own data says, but of course no one likes having blind faith challenged.

and the latter is probably more helpful in building championship contenders.

Again, assuming all things are equal otherwise, and assuming that read on Jordan is actually fair and reflective of how he would play on any team where he could not wholly dominate all scoring opportunities.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Come on lol, puffing up much?

Not at all. I've been posting as Danko/dankok8/Djoker at Insidehoops, Hoops-Nation, and Hoopshype as well as here intermittently for well over a decade and people were citing my articles about Kareem. It is what it is. And I didn't post that to brag about it but just to dispel any notions that I'm a Jordan stan because my arguments in this thread have been strawman-ed and everything I say tends to be taken out of context or greatly exaggerated.

To be technical, the GOAT peaks discussion you mention in 2012, wouldn't include his 2013 nor 2016 seasons. His 2013 season usually gets the most fervor as his overall peak. If you actually look at the next GOAT peaks voting that goes on, his 2013 season leaves quite the impression on people and his peak moves up to #3 in overall peaks I'm pretty sure. And 2016 also seems to get a decent amount of attention for his personal peak.

Are we seriously going to pretend that 2009/2012 Lebron are the 10th highest peaks ever but 2013 Lebron is the 2nd highest peak ever? Come on now...

Your right, 2009 Lebron is the greatest peak ever.