RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread

[OhayoKD]

General FYI: One_and_Done has been removed from the project.

His current vote will count, but will not be a part of the discussion going forward.

May I ask why? I mean we all know the general issue, but I didn't see anything escalate beyond the normal in the current thread or the last one. But then it's certainly possible there was private discourse the rest of us wouldn't be privy to.

No one has been removed from the project up this point, and based on what's publicly knowable, it doesn't seem like there was an obvious breaking point. Just a bit surprised/confused.

Yeah, I'd second this. As repetitive as they were, there have been worse trangressions going unpunished, and ultimately I'd say the novel perspective(with a degree of reasoning) benefitted the discussion

they also offered an extra vote-counter for mods to corraborate their count(and to my kwnoedge they did actually catch missed votes on an instance) so there's that.

[Colbinii]

He made a ton of posts that lacked constructive feedback and any meaningful discussion point other than "Player A Old, Player A Bad, Player B Modern, Player B Good". When presented with reasonable and objective counter arguments, the response was "Well yeah, but No".

And then Julius Erving is more modern than players he literally played against.

Iggy [Don't know his username] has a 99% advanced stat criteria, skewed modern, but his posts contain a lot of substance.

I dont read this and think "Man, this is affecting the thread in a positive light". Nothing here is productive to the 100s of readers or dozens of voters. This can become a problem when its everywhere.

As discussed last thread, I feel Ewing is getting overrated a bit here. He's way better than Reggie & Stockton though, and on another planet to Pettit.

[penbeast0]

May I ask why? I mean we all know the general issue, but I didn't see anything escalate beyond the normal in the current thread or the last one. But then it's certainly possible there was private discourse the rest of us wouldn't be privy to.

No one has been removed from the project up this point, and based on what's publicly knowable, it doesn't seem like there was an obvious breaking point. Just a bit surprised/confused.

Actually there was another poster removed from the project and given a 6 month board ban early on for personal attacks on other players so he wasn't the first.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I feel kicking someone out because his opinion isn’t liked is a bit much lol, he didn’t do anything glaring even if some people were annoyed by it right?

[70sFan]

I'm not a mod, so I respect the decision (I also don't vote for what it's worth) but I'll say that I didn't mind his contribution. He was annoying at times for his lack of self-reflection, but I don't think he was bad for the project outcome.

[WestGOAT]

Mad props to Doctor MJ for organizing the Top 100 Project, I cannot imagine the dedicated effort this requires over such a relatively long time period. I definitely understand that there is no way to keep everyone involved happy.

As a passive lurker mainly so far I've been enjoying soaking up reading the topics (maybe I'll join the voting pool as well when I have more time and if permitted to join) and I actually appreciate One_and_Done differing perspectives, compared to the general consensus of the PC board. Yes the tone could be pretty abrasive at times, but then again, that is pretty much the standard on this sub-board from what I've observed over the years, so I find the exclusion actually unfortunate.

Especially since this is a very active poster, and would probably bring much needed life in the latter topics of this project when general participation tends to diminish. That said I'm not an active participant so I don't need to deal with this poster on a regular basis

[penbeast0]

I feel kicking someone out because his opinion isn’t liked is a bit much lol, he didn’t do anything glaring even if some people were annoyed by it right?

I don't think it was his opinion, I think it was his continued rudeness after multiple warnings. You would have to ask Doc to see why he made his decision but I don't think his basketball opinions had anything to do with it. As people have said, even if we don't agree (and we almost never did), different perspectives are valuable. Rudeness to the point of other posters quitting the project because of it is not.

[Colbinii]

I feel kicking someone out because his opinion isn’t liked is a bit much lol, he didn’t do anything glaring even if some people were annoyed by it right?

You're just making an assumption he was kicked out because of his opinion.

I highly doubt Doc would kick someone out because of a differing opinion than his.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I feel kicking someone out because his opinion isn’t liked is a bit much lol, he didn’t do anything glaring even if some people were annoyed by it right?

I don't think it was his opinion, I think it was his continued rudeness after multiple warnings. You would have to ask Doc to see why he made his decision but I don't think his basketball opinions had anything to do with it. As people have said, even if we don't agree (and we almost never did), different perspectives are valuable. Rudeness to the point of other posters quitting the project because of it is not.

Hm, I mean if he was warned multiple times to stop mentioning it I’d get it, but I feel a snarky comment a few times is annoying but it’s nothing that serious I’d think

Like had he continuously made that comment about, let’s say KD, would it have been the same? I can’t help but think it wouldn’t have compared to him saying it about guys like west and them

[MyUniBroDavis]

I feel kicking someone out because his opinion isn’t liked is a bit much lol, he didn’t do anything glaring even if some people were annoyed by it right?

You're just making an assumption he was kicked out because of his opinion.

I highly doubt Doc would kick someone out because of a differing opinion than his.

Doc is chill, but the main thing sounded like One_and_Done was a hater, but I think getting kicked form a project he Lowkey posted in more actively than most is unfair

As discussed last thread, I feel Ewing is getting overrated a bit here. He's way better than Reggie & Stockton though, and on another planet to Pettit.

^ this was seemingly the last straw, and I don’t know I really don’t see anything wrong here in terms of violating rules or anything. It’s not like he didn’t put effort into his posts and he did contribute to the project either

Yeah, he was pretty hard headed and set on his beliefs, but a bunch of posters are in general, he’s just blatant about it vs being discreet.

Like he was snarky in the sense where he’d be like “man I can’t believe we voted X over Y smh” like once or twice a thread esp if someone brought it up, but I don’t think it’s anything that serious

[Colbinii]

I feel kicking someone out because his opinion isn’t liked is a bit much lol, he didn’t do anything glaring even if some people were annoyed by it right?

You're just making an assumption he was kicked out because of his opinion.

I highly doubt Doc would kick someone out because of a differing opinion than his.

Doc is chill, but the main thing sounded like One_and_Done was a hater, but I think getting kicked form a project he Lowkey posted in more actively than most is unfair

As discussed last thread, I feel Ewing is getting overrated a bit here. He's way better than Reggie & Stockton though, and on another planet to Pettit.

^ this was seemingly the last straw, and I don’t know I really don’t see anything wrong here in terms of violating rules or anything. It’s not like he didn’t put effort into his posts and he did contribute to the project either

This is a really low-effort post. No stats. No argumentation. No thought-provoking statements. Nothing of substance. Seems low-effort to me.

Like he was snarky in the sense where he’d be like “man I can’t believe we voted X over Y smh” like once or twice a thread esp if someone brought it up, but I don’t think it’s anything that serious

So 50+ times in a project?

[homecourtloss]

General FYI: One_and_Done has been removed from the project.

His current vote will count, but will not be a part of the discussion going forward.

May I ask why? I mean we all know the general issue, but I didn't see anything escalate beyond the normal in the current thread or the last one. But then it's certainly possible there was private discourse the rest of us wouldn't be privy to.

No one has been removed from the project up this point, and based on what's publicly knowable, it doesn't seem like there was an obvious breaking point. Just a bit surprised/confused.

Yeah, I'd second this. As repetitive as they were, there have been worse trangressions going unpunished, and ultimately I'd say the novel perspective(with a degree of reasoning) benefitted the discussion

they also offered an extra vote-counter for mods to corraborate their count(and to my kwnoedge they did actually catch missed votes on an instance) so there's that.

What’s kind of interesting is that the poster also served a functional purpose of laying out some cliche arguments against past players, which could then be rebutted and then memorialized in the threads for posters who haven’t seen arguments for some of these players and/or haven’t seen any clips. I’m sure there are many posters who have gained a greater appreciation for past greats from the PC board by reading arguments for them as well as arguments for them as direct rebuttals made when arguments against them were made.

It was getting a bit trollish towards the end, but the poster did also provide some reasoning behind statements.

[MyUniBroDavis]

You're just making an assumption he was kicked out because of his opinion.

I highly doubt Doc would kick someone out because of a differing opinion than his.

Doc is chill, but the main thing sounded like One_and_Done was a hater, but I think getting kicked form a project he Lowkey posted in more actively than most is unfair

As discussed last thread, I feel Ewing is getting overrated a bit here. He's way better than Reggie & Stockton though, and on another planet to Pettit.

^ this was seemingly the last straw, and I don’t know I really don’t see anything wrong here in terms of violating rules or anything. It’s not like he didn’t put effort into his posts and he did contribute to the project either

This is a really low-effort post. No stats. No argumentation. No thought-provoking statements. Nothing of substance. Seems low-effort to me.

Like he was snarky in the sense where he’d be like “man I can’t believe we voted X over Y smh” like once or twice a thread esp if someone brought it up, but I don’t think it’s anything that serious

So 50+ times in a project?

I mean it’s a post but it’s unfair to call everything he typed out low effort lol. I also wouldn’t say it does much but I wouldn’t think of it as a post to get kicked out for

I can understand not liking his contributions but it makes it feel a bit elitist imo, although of course If he’d had serious warnings before I’d get it which probably was the case.

[Colbinii]

Doc is chill, but the main thing sounded like One_and_Done was a hater, but I think getting kicked form a project he Lowkey posted in more actively than most is unfair



^ this was seemingly the last straw, and I don’t know I really don’t see anything wrong here in terms of violating rules or anything. It’s not like he didn’t put effort into his posts and he did contribute to the project either

This is a really low-effort post. No stats. No argumentation. No thought-provoking statements. Nothing of substance. Seems low-effort to me.

Like he was snarky in the sense where he’d be like “man I can’t believe we voted X over Y smh” like once or twice a thread esp if someone brought it up, but I don’t think it’s anything that serious

So 50+ times in a project?

I mean it’s a post but it’s unfair to call everything he typed out low effort lol. I also wouldn’t say it does much but I wouldn’t think of it as a post to get kicked out for

I can understand not liking his contributions but it makes it feel a bit elitist imo, although of course If he’d had serious warnings before I’d get it which probably was the case.

How is it elitist? As HomeCourtLoss said, his posts did generate some good discussion. There just wasn't much value in the content of the post itself.

It is like when Shaq32 comes in with a half-sentence or Rate_ comes in every 3 threads to comment on one Wade comment.

Snip

Heard the same thing 2 years ago.

I see I am clearly in the minority here, but none of us know what One_And_Done said behind closed doors and none of us need to know in order to respect Doctor MJ's decision. I know I will be getting more enjoyment out of the project now--and am now inclined to participate again after taking ~1 month hiatus.

[penbeast0]

Welcome back then

[Doctor MJ]

So, just a few thoughts based on what folks have said:

1. Always keep in mind that moderation is done as much behind the scenes as possible. It's not supposed to be a thing where everyone on RealGM knows when a poster is getting in trouble. So, if it seems out of the blue what happens to another poster, well, don't expect that it seemed out of the blue for the poster.

2. Practically speaking, most of the mod action I take in this project is in response to complaints from others. I don't think I've ever reached out in PM to any of the posters in the projects to talk about issues without a complaint from someone else. This is not to say that I don't use my own judgment when deciding about what to do about said complaints, but I've acted as more of a peacemaker/advisor to folks getting complaints against them than anything else.

3. This is where I'll also note that I haven't been an active mod, in terms of disciplining posters, for a long time. I still have the Moderator title because of the projects I run and my track record in community building. So if anything, I think other mods would call me lax on this front.

4. I think probably the most important thing to understand is that it's not some theoretical thing that negative posting drives other posters away. A while back one long-time poster PMed me informing me that they were leaving the project in response to how I handled the Mikan issue, which One_and_Done as at the center of. It wasn't a threat or an ultimatum, they just told me that if this was how the project was going to be, that they'd rather not deal with it.

If after that point there'd been no further issues with One_and_Done, One_and_Done would still be in the project. Instead things continued from there.

5. Last thing I'll say: Among mods, sometimes we say about posters "He can't help himself." This essentially means that while we may see a lot of good in a poster, he does not seem to be able to keep himself from doing the thing again and again that got him in trouble. The statement is a lament, but we just want to see the poster figure out where the thresholds are and stay within them, but if he can't do that, then the consequences naturally escalate leading to suspensions and bans.

I think posters tend to think that when a big consequence comes down it must be because the poster did something awful that they never had done before - or that the mod in question had an axe to grind I suppose - but when we're talking about longer term posters, that's typically not the deal. Rather at a certain point it becomes a question of whether to simply give up and let that poster do whatever they want regardless of the complaints and violations, or to acknowledge that the poster just isn't ever going to color inside the lines laid out, and so they can't remain a part of the community in question.

[Colbinii]

Welcome back then

I'll hop on the Stockton bandwagon around 35 for ya.

[MyUniBroDavis]

So, just a few thoughts based on what folks have said:

1. Always keep in mind that moderation is done as much behind the scenes as possible. It's not supposed to be a thing where everyone on RealGM knows when a poster is getting in trouble. So, if it seems out of the blue what happens to another poster, well, don't expect that it seemed out of the blue for the poster.

2. Practically speaking, most of the mod action I take in this project is in response to complaints from others. I don't think I've ever reached out in PM to any of the posters in the projects to talk about issues without a complaint from someone else. This is not to say that I don't use my own judgment when deciding about what to do about said complaints, but I've acted as more of a peacemaker/advisor to folks getting complaints against them than anything else.

3. This is where I'll also note that I haven't been an active mod, in terms of disciplining posters, for a long time. I still have the Moderator title because of the projects I run and my track record in community building. So if anything, I think other mods would call me lax on this front.

4. I think probably the most important thing to understand is that it's not some theoretical thing that negative posting drives other posters away. A while back one long-time poster PMed me informing me that they were leaving the project in response to how I handled the Mikan issue, which One_and_Done as at the center of. It wasn't a threat or an ultimatum, they just told me that if this was how the project was going to be, that they'd rather not deal with it.

If after that point there'd been no further issues with One_and_Done, One_and_Done would still be in the project. Instead things continued from there.

5. Last thing I'll say: Among mods, sometimes we say about posters "He can't help himself." This essentially means that while we may see a lot of good in a poster, he does not seem to be able to keep himself from doing the thing again and again that got him in trouble. The statement is a lament, but we just want to see the poster figure out where the thresholds are and stay within them, but if he can't do that, then the consequences naturally escalate leading to suspensions and bans.

I think posters tend to think that when a big consequence comes down it must be because the poster did something awful that they never had done before - or that the mod in question had an axe to grind I suppose - but when we're talking about longer term posters, that's typically not the deal. Rather at a certain point it becomes a question of whether to simply give up and let that poster do whatever they want regardless of the complaints and violations, or to acknowledge that the poster just isn't ever going to color inside the lines laid out, and so they can't remain a part of the community in question.

Yeah if he was continuously getting warned In private Ig it

[HeartBreakKid]

Yeah, OAD can't reframe from basically saying the same thing tens of times in every single thread even when he is not being talked to directly.

It's certainly disruptive and tiresome. I totally understand why he was removed. It has nothing to do with his differing opinions, I don't even know what that means, differing opinion from who?

[trex_8063]

Welcome back then

I'll hop on the Stockton bandwagon around 35 for ya.

Heaven for fend I still have to be arguing for Stockton when we reach #35!