RealGM Top 100 List #4

[DQuinn1575]

The rule was you can't win on a plurality. I'm also not sure any of the non-Wilt voters would support him, so it's important for there to be some kind of run-off so that Wilt wins legitimately. If he does, good on him. I've certainly come away with a higher opinion of him from reading this thread.

EDIT: I went back through and did a quick count, and mine comes up differently too! lol. I have Wilt on 17, Magic on 6, Shaq on 5, Hakeem on 4, Duncan on 3 and KG on 2. Wilt would need 19 votes to have a majority (and I haven't included Dr P's floated switch btw).

Can you (or someone) add names to the vote totals - so anyone interested can make sure their vote is counted, and only eligible/qualifying voters are counted?

So, if it ended as stated - Wilt would run off with Magic. Wilt would start with 17 votes, Magic with 6. If there are 14 other votes (there may be more or less), Wilt would need 2 votes to win.

Thanks

[ardee]

Maybe this will continue in the fifth thread but I'd echo Ryoga's sentiments here...

To the KG voters, RAPM is all very well, and even assuming it's a 100% reliable, it is based fully on the regular season. What argument do the KG voters have about his reputation for weaker Playoff performances?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[An Unbiased Fan]

2010 Cavs, 6.17 SRS, #1 seed in East.....lost to Boston(3.37 SRS) with HCA. This is the "Elbow" series where Lebron was "off".

Do you always contradict yourself? This is your post a week ago on the most talented teams each year

2004 - Mavs
2006 - PHX
2008 - Celtics
2009 - Celtics
2010 - Celtics
2011 - Heat
2012 - Heat

That actually should say the Lakers in 2010 with a healthier Bynum. Looks like I kept writing Celtics and skipped over LA when I put down the Heat.

Do you always search every post of mine so you can go off on some tangent? I already listed why Boston was inferior in the very post you quoted, but of course you skipped right over that.

[drza]

As I cannot vote, I just want to add a few notes:
- as open minded as I can be, I have a serious problem considering Garnett at this point, no matter what are the priorities anybody has in his list. As much as you can trust RAPM,that's a RS stat and RS can not have that much of a weight when talking about Top5.

Maybe this will continue in the fifth thread but I'd echo Ryoga's sentiments here...

To the KG voters, RAPM is all very well, and even assuming it's a 100% reliable, it is based fully on the regular season. What argument do the KG voters have about his reputation for weaker Playoff performances?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app

A few quick responses:

1) KG's candidacy isn't based entirely on RAPM. My observations and judgments on KG's impact on the game were formed long, long before RAPM even existed. RAPM is a good tool to use for evidence, and I use it as such, but it can't be a standalone

2) That said, I believe you are both incorrect. My understanding is that RAPM results include both the regular AND the postseason. Someone should double-check, but I believe that most APM and RAPM calculations are weighted such that the playoffs are counted heavier than the regular season

3) Considering that RAPM is a +/- based stat, it is extremely likely that Garnett's RAPM score actually goes UP because of his playoff performances. It is commonly stated by many that KG has "weaker Playoff performances", primarily due to scoring efficiency. However, as I've pointed out time and again through the years (including well before +/- stats came out), Garnett has a history of monster work in the postseason and that we tend to over-use scoring efficiency in judging players. Small rant aside, on topic, Garnett's career postseason on/off +/- scores are off the charts (I mean way higher than anyone else that I've seen since 2001). As such, as I mentioned at the start, his postseasons probably help his RAPM scores.

[An Unbiased Fan]

As I cannot vote, I just want to add a few notes:
- as open minded as I can be, I have a serious problem considering Garnett at this point, no matter what are the priorities anybody has in his list. As much as you can trust RAPM,that's a RS stat and RS can not have that much of a weight when talking about Top5.

Maybe this will continue in the fifth thread but I'd echo Ryoga's sentiments here...

To the KG voters, RAPM is all very well, and even assuming it's a 100% reliable, it is based fully on the regular season. What argument do the KG voters have about his reputation for weaker Playoff performances?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app

A few quick responses:

1) KG's candidacy isn't based entirely on RAPM. My observations and judgments on KG's impact on the game were formed long, long before RAPM even existed. RAPM is a good tool to use for evidence, and I use it as such, but it can't be a standalone

Hmm, What's a non-RAPM argument for KG over Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Hakeem? Or even DRob, Dirk, Doc. J?

I'm seriously interested because you're very passionate about this.

[penbeast0]

2010 Cavs, 6.17 SRS, #1 seed in East.....lost to Boston(3.37 SRS) with HCA. This is the "Elbow" series where Lebron was "off".

Do you always contradict yourself? This is your post a week ago on the most talented teams each year

2004 - Mavs
2006 - PHX
2008 - Celtics
2009 - Celtics
[size=150]2010 - Celtics
2011 - Heat
2012 - Heat

That actually should say the Lakers in 2010 with a healthier Bynum. Looks like I kept writing Celtics and skipped over LA when I put down the Heat.

Do you always search every post of mine so you can go off on some tangent? I already listed why Boston was inferior in the very post you quoted, but of course you skipped right over that.

[/size]

CHILDREN, PLAY NICE!

[colts18]

% of Chris Bosh's plays that come as the Pick and Roll man:

2010 (with Raptors): 11.9%

2014 (with Heat): 19.0%

LeBron is definitely not playing a 2 man game with Bosh!

[An Unbiased Fan]

CHILDREN, PLAY NICE!

Nah, I have no interest in engaging. Just had to answer that one post. More interested in KG arguments at this point since Wilt seems like the likely #4 pick.

[drza]

As I cannot vote, I just want to add a few notes:
- as open minded as I can be, I have a serious problem considering Garnett at this point, no matter what are the priorities anybody has in his list. As much as you can trust RAPM,that's a RS stat and RS can not have that much of a weight when talking about Top5.

Maybe this will continue in the fifth thread but I'd echo Ryoga's sentiments here...

To the KG voters, RAPM is all very well, and even assuming it's a 100% reliable, it is based fully on the regular season. What argument do the KG voters have about his reputation for weaker Playoff performances?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app

A few quick responses:

1) KG's candidacy isn't based entirely on RAPM. My observations and judgments on KG's impact on the game were formed long, long before RAPM even existed. RAPM is a good tool to use for evidence, and I use it as such, but it can't be a standalone

Hmm, What's a non-RAPM argument for KG over Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Hakeem? Or even DRob, Dirk, Doc. J?

I'm seriously interested because you're very passionate about this.

Well first, if this is a serious question, you already should have the answer for several of these players. You've been on this board for a long time, and you've actually participated in a bunch of threads with me through the years where you've seen me make a LOT of arguments. So there's that.

Second, KG clearly isn't getting voted in on this thread, so you'll have the opportunity to see me make more arguments in this project moving forward

Those things said, I laid out some general parameters in my post earlier in this thread that will be expanded upon. Garnett is one of the best defensive players of all-time, which allows him to impact games in ways that some of the others under contention can't. Garnett is also one of the better offensive players of his generation, which makes his total package extremely strong. Garnett's game is extremely portable, meaning that he could contribute maximally to any reasonably constructed team. Similarly (but very important), Garnett's game allows his teammates to also contribute maximally which makes him one of the better "make your teammates better" players around. Garnett has outstanding longevity as well...maybe not quite to Kareem/Mailman levels, but the next best thing. But with that, KG also had one of the best peaks that I've ever seen.

As I said, that's just a thumbnail. I'm certain that you'll get to see a lot more specifics as this project continues. And if you really are interested, hopefully we can spark some good conversations.

[ardee]

As I cannot vote, I just want to add a few notes:
- as open minded as I can be, I have a serious problem considering Garnett at this point, no matter what are the priorities anybody has in his list. As much as you can trust RAPM,that's a RS stat and RS can not have that much of a weight when talking about Top5.

Maybe this will continue in the fifth thread but I'd echo Ryoga's sentiments here...

To the KG voters, RAPM is all very well, and even assuming it's a 100% reliable, it is based fully on the regular season. What argument do the KG voters have about his reputation for weaker Playoff performances?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app

A few quick responses:

1) KG's candidacy isn't based entirely on RAPM. My observations and judgments on KG's impact on the game were formed long, long before RAPM even existed. RAPM is a good tool to use for evidence, and I use it as such, but it can't be a standalone

Hmm, What's a non-RAPM argument for KG over Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Hakeem? Or even DRob, Dirk, Doc. J?

I'm seriously interested because you're very passionate about this.

Not that I agree with it but I've been on RealGM long enough to guage drza, Doctor MJ, etc.'s views on why they consider KG to be worthy of this kind of ranking.

Essentially he has to be considered the most mobile defender in history, perhaps on par with Russell. Shotblocking has to be considered not too important as long as he contests every shot (I disagree here, a blocked shot has a higher chance of ending a possession than a missed one). Also, he's one of the very best defensive rebounders in history (this is true, numbers don't lie).

On offense, play up the spacing provided by his mid-range ability like crazy, and his ability to run the offense like a true point forward.

Basically, the argument is that his defensive versatility + rebounding + shooting + creation make up for the lack of a true isolation game he has, which is what a lot of the guys you mentioned have over him. Plus fwiw, he DOES have a longevity edge on everyone except Duncan, Kobe and Dirk.

I personally rank all those guys above him except D-Rob and Erving... Those guys are right behind him. I have KG at 15, and I don't think it's an insult just as a bunch of guys here would rank Kobe at 14/15 and think it's absolutely fair. To each their own.

[Purch]

To be honest the guy who started arguing for Lebron, does actually have a point. If you look at Lebron and Kg's total body of work, he has a better case than Garnett for being this high up. In fact Lebron has overachieved in both the regular season and post season, as much as any player in nba history with sub par supporting cast and sub par coaching on the cavs (two things Garnett fans constantly use for to support his lack of playoff success). And at his peak was clearly a better player.

With so many players better than him at this point, the Garnett vote seems like quite a stretch, or an attempt to have him higher than he was last project. I was looking through the old project, and there was a similar push for KG once Kobe's name started coming up. But maybe it's a realgm thing, weirder trends seem to occur on this forum

[ardee]

A few quick responses:

1) KG's candidacy isn't based entirely on RAPM. My observations and judgments on KG's impact on the game were formed long, long before RAPM even existed. RAPM is a good tool to use for evidence, and I use it as such, but it can't be a standalone

Hmm, What's a non-RAPM argument for KG over Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Hakeem? Or even DRob, Dirk, Doc. J?

I'm seriously interested because you're very passionate about this.

Well first, if this is a serious question, you already should have the answer for several of these players. You've been on this board for a long time, and you've actually participated in a bunch of threads with me through the years where you've seen me make a LOT of arguments. So there's that.

Second, KG clearly isn't getting voted in on this thread, so you'll have the opportunity to see me make more arguments in this project moving forward

Those things said, I laid out some general parameters in my post earlier in this thread that will be expanded upon. Garnett is one of the best defensive players of all-time, which allows him to impact games in ways that some of the others under contention can't. Garnett is also one of the better offensive players of his generation, which makes his total package extremely strong. Garnett's game is extremely portable, meaning that he could contribute maximally to any reasonably constructed team. Similarly (but very important), Garnett's game allows his teammates to also contribute maximally which makes him one of the better "make your teammates better" players around. Garnett has outstanding longevity as well...maybe not quite to Kareem/Mailman levels, but the next best thing. But with that, KG also had one of the best peaks that I've ever seen.

As I said, that's just a thumbnail. I'm certain that you'll get to see a lot more specifics as this project continues. And if you really are interested, hopefully we can spark some good conversations.

drza I am extremely curious... You didn't submit a list before the project, but what does your top 15 or so look like?

[drza]

drza I am extremely curious... You didn't submit a list before the project, but what does your top 15 or so look like?

I don't really have a formal top-X list. I'm not even sure I really believe in it, since there's so much uncertainty across eras. I'm one that participates in these projects much more for the conversations and learning (and teaching) opportunities than for the final order

[An Unbiased Fan]

A few quick responses:

1) KG's candidacy isn't based entirely on RAPM. My observations and judgments on KG's impact on the game were formed long, long before RAPM even existed. RAPM is a good tool to use for evidence, and I use it as such, but it can't be a standalone

Hmm, What's a non-RAPM argument for KG over Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Hakeem? Or even DRob, Dirk, Doc. J?

I'm seriously interested because you're very passionate about this.

Well first, if this is a serious question, you already should have the answer for several of these players. You've been on this board for a long time, and you've actually participated in a bunch of threads with me through the years where you've seen me make a LOT of arguments. So there's that.

Second, KG clearly isn't getting voted in on this thread, so you'll have the opportunity to see me make more arguments in this project moving forward

Those things said, I laid out some general parameters in my post earlier in this thread that will be expanded upon. Garnett is one of the best defensive players of all-time, which allows him to impact games in ways that some of the others under contention can't. Garnett is also one of the better offensive players of his generation, which makes his total package extremely strong. Garnett's game is extremely portable, meaning that he could contribute maximally to any reasonably constructed team. Similarly (but very important), Garnett's game allows his teammates to also contribute maximally which makes him one of the better "make your teammates better" players around. Garnett has outstanding longevity as well...maybe not quite to Kareem/Mailman levels, but the next best thing. But with that, KG also had one of the best peaks that I've ever seen.

As I said, that's just a thumbnail. I'm certain that you'll get to see a lot more specifics as this project continues. And if you really are interested, hopefully we can spark some good conversations.

Ok, fair enough. I look forward to those discussions. The PF position is the most diverse of them all. I always find it hard to pick between Dirk, Barkley, KG, Malone, and even Petitt for his era. Then you have guys like Rodman/Pau floating around who were really impactful, in the Top 10 for PFs. Should be interesting.

[Texas Chuck]

Props to Ardee from changing from his earlier stance in this project in regards to Kobe and KG

A few days ago:

It is really alarming to me that given some of these lists, we might actually see KG being ranked over Kobe in the final results...

It would be alarming that both KG and Dirk might be ranked over Kobe. Somebody would also need to explain how Wade can be ranked out of the top 30 despite his accomplishments.

If Kobe falls lower than 11 it would be absolutely ridiculous.

Cue the 'stan' accusations.

Today:

I have KG at 15, and I don't think it's an insult just as a bunch of guys here would rank Kobe at 14/15 and think it's absolutely fair. To each their own.

[Purch]

To be honest the guy who started arguing for Lebron, does actually have a point. If you look at Lebron and Kg's total body of work, he has a better case than Garnett for being this high up. In fact Lebron has overachieved in both the regular season and post season, as much as any player in nba history with sub par supporting cast and sub par coaching on the cavs (two things Garnett fans constantly use for to support his lack of playoff success). And at his peak was clearly a better player.

With so many players better than him at this point, the Garnett vote seems like quite a stretch, or an attempt to have him higher than he was last project. I was looking through the old project, and there was a similar push for KG once Kobe's name started coming up. But maybe it's a realgm thing, weirder trends seem to occur on this forum

O yea, and just so people know where I'm coming from about Garnett...

I'm responsible for uploading the most playoff highlights of Garnett's game on youtube

Including his

33/14/4/2/2 game 3 vs the Lakers in 2003
30/15/5/3/3 game 3 vs the kings in 04
30/19/4 game 5 vs Lakers in 04
33/7/2 game 5 vs pistons in 08

https://youtube.com/results?q=swagsosic ... rnett&sm=3

And that's only speaking about the games I've uploaded. I've literally sat through hours upon hours of Garnett post seasons performances, which is the reason why I'm comfortable saying that he hasn't impressed me enough to say that he has a top 10 impact on the game.

Even the 4 of his best scoring games I uploaded (I might actually add some more later this summer from my collection) left me disappointed in his ability to change the flow of the game. I remember he'd be in the 4th quater of the game, whiles a team is going on a big run, and rather than take the ball to the hole, he'd keep on forcing mid range shots even when it wasn't falling even when he was being played 1 on 1. Or he'd get pushed out of position when his team needed to stop a run, and settle for a bad fade away. What I remember being impressed by most by him, whiles breaking down his footage, was always his ability to defend players off the dribble and on the perimeter. But specifically in both the Laker series from 03 and from 04 I found myself underwhelmed by his Rim protection .

Also, I want to add that Garnett's ability to bring the ball up and start the offense like a point guard is a big reason why I have him in my top 18 or so. When you have a 4 , who can legitimately run the 1 for a possessions, then the versitility of that player can never be questioned.

[Quotatious]

Props to Ardee from changing from his earlier stance in this project in regards to Kobe and KG

Yep.

I'd absolutely love it if Kobe didn't get selected as #11 kinda by default - not that I have anything against him, but I think that Dirk, KG, Oscar, West and Dr. J all have a case against him. Really good case. For instance, I think the only thing that puts Bryant over West is a bit better longevity (obviously we can't measure West's defense like we can Kobe's, and it sucks, because we know that a lot of Kobe's defensive reputation doesn't find its reflection in reality - could be similar with West, but could also be the opposite).

Just a few thoughts, sorry for the off-topic talk.

[Purch]

Props to Ardee from changing from his earlier stance in this project in regards to Kobe and KG

Yep.

I'd absolutely love it if Kobe didn't get selected as #11 kinda by default - not that I have anything against him, but I think that Dirk, KG, Oscar, West and Dr. J all have a case against him. Really good case. For instance, I think the only thing that puts Bryant over West is a bit better longevity (obviously we can't measure West's defense like we can Kobe's, and it sucks, because we know that a lot of Kobe's defensive reputation doesn't find its reflection in reality - could be similar with West, but could also be the opposite).

Just a few thoughts, sorry for the off-topic talk.

I think what makes Kobe unique is that different parts of his game peaked at different times. Early in his career his defense was elite but the effort on that end of the floor fell off toward the end of the three peat. Then his athletic/scoring peak was from 05-07 in my eyes. Whiles his passing, post game and three point peak came from 08-10 if I'm remembering correctly. Sometimes it almost seems like different players.

[Clyde Frazier]

Props to Ardee from changing from his earlier stance in this project in regards to Kobe and KG

Yep.

I'd absolutely love it if Kobe didn't get selected as #11 kinda by default - not that I have anything against him, but I think that Dirk, KG, Oscar, West and Dr. J all have a case against him. Really good case. For instance, I think the only thing that puts Bryant over West is a bit better longevity (obviously we can't measure West's defense like we can Kobe's, and it sucks, because we know that a lot of Kobe's defensive reputation doesn't find its reflection in reality - could be similar with West, but could also be the opposite).

Just a few thoughts, sorry for the off-topic talk.

Those last few all defensive selections he racked up were embarrassing. I'm not saying other players haven't benefited from reputation over merit, but those always stuck out to me.

[ElGee]

-Floor-spacing! Lack of it made it a challenge to execute on the low block, both from a scoring and passing standpoint.

Every bit of footage from that era shows how easy it was to swarm the post player. Because of the poor spacing and constant movement from the players, there may have been a larger number of possible options for Wilt as a passer, but also a lot more potential help defenders who could pressure him without fully committing. It just wasn't as simple as drawing a double team and kicking it to an open player.

It seems to me that the argument has evolved like this:

-"Wilt scored a bunch! He's way ahead of everyone else"
-"Wait, Wilt's scoring didn't yield great things offensively"
-"But it could have if he played today!"

Just about every clip I have seen of him drawing a hard double results in him punishing the defense with his passing

This contradicts the larger point. It's saying "Wilt played in an era with poor spacing -- he couldn't hurt people with his passing...When Wilt was doubled, he always hurt people with passing."

The natural retort to this is that only sometimes teams provided proper spacing in the 60's and they do all the time today. Is that really what you guys are seeing? Can you demonstrate by breaking down some plays? I'm well aware of the geometry of 60's basketball but essentially what you are alleging is that there is just enough evidence for spacing in relation to Wilt's passing that you can confidently extrapolate into today's game, but that spacing was just rare enough in the 60's to prevent Wilt from exerting the same impact he would today. All the while ignoring that of all the modern big, strong low-post players, only Shaq in Phil Jackson's offense has really shown us a high ceiling with this kind of approach.